Lionel Messi
- Thread starter cesc's_mullet
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Yes. He was doing too much on his own that first season and the addition of Eto'o and in particular Deco the following season meant he could do his work in the right areas of the pitch to much greater effectiveness, but he was still outstanding. The only shining light when they struggled at the start of the season and still head and shoulders above everyone when they got their act together and trashed everyone (albeit too late for the top spot).
Great point!! A present player can never be better than someone who was great in the passed. It always comes to a point where people start overrating how good the older player was.
Nah, people gave due credit to Ronaldo, Zidane and Ronaldinho when they were at their best.
If anything posterity has been harsh on the likes of Baggio, Laudrup and Romario who were deservedly hailed as the best around at their peak.
Ronaldinhio does not deserve to mentioned alongside Fat Ron and Zidane. For moi, by this season's end our Ron would have already surpassed him.
Sorry can't agree, he with out doubt could have been the most talented indivdual footballer ever!! (If he maintained his high level of performances)
They got their act together when they got Davids for loan which allowed Ronaldinhio to play his game. And Etoo was not far off Ronaldinhio during their double season.
I knew he was in a weaker team and that he was basically running the team, but I had thought that in his first season he did far too much himself and while he contributed goals-wise he didn't do enough in the other areas?
As in he showed flashes of brilliance but he equally showed flashes of stupidity and selfishness. Something you'd not associate with Ronaldinho's other great seasons.
But he didn't, which is why he shouldn't be named alongside people like the Brazilian Ronaldo.
The heading of Cahill?
I had ketchup on my hands and couldn't bother to think of a better example! Thought you were gonna pick on my fletcher example instead...haha..
Its your opinion, no need to apologise. For me while he was the best in the world for 1-2 years, he was still overrated by most of the football fans.
Another thing I want to touch is the big game talk. To stand out in a big game in England is much more difficult than to do so in Spain. People go on about Messi's Hattrick against Real. If anyone had watched the full match instead of highlight and also followed the lead up to the match, would know that Barca were expected to thrash Real in that match. And Real's defense in that match was worse than that of Newcastle. Barca and Messi himself missed loads of sitters. Even if you put Messi in United shirt, you won't be seeing him scoring Hattrick against Liverpool, while Ronaldo playing for Barca against Real is likely to score more goals.
But Big Ron at Madrid was just a great player!!
And Big Ron at PSV, Inter and Barcelona was fantastic by all accounts.
Don't let his Madrid days taint you.
I cannot comprehend people trying to equate Ronaldinhio with Fat Ron. Be it talent wise or performance wise.
Yeah, i think you missed my point!
Seriously Ronaldinho never made playing football look easy? Who's comparing Ronaldo to Ronaldinho... I'm just saying the guy deserves credit for bringing out performances that have never been seen before. He managed to bring an art of showboating performed at on the highest stage, and before people start he could play it wasn't all about tricks and flicks.
I don't think many people do talk about Messi as a big game player though.
Ronaldo, Zidane, Giggs etc. were all big game players which is why they are mentioned, but I don't think many regard Messi as a big game player yet.
He was great against us as well though, which would make the claim a bit more credible. I can't think of many others that stick out in memory, besides the ones against Chelsea and one against Celtic. Against Sevilla he scored both goals to give them the 2-1 win and he was masterful in that game, although I'm not sure Sevilla are of the quality of the top four here.
Messi was not that good against Chelsea. He was more like Ronaldo in his first two season then but given his dribbling ability even at that age, he was better on the eye.
And I watched that Barca-Sevilla game as well, again if you discount the recent Arsenal-United game, it hard to think of such an open top 4 encounter in premiership. Even if you have a side going in all attack mode it is when the other is defending with 10 men.
Nobody is denying him any credit by saying he is not in the same bracket as Fat Ron and Zidane. He deservedly won the best player tag for couple of seasons, that's about it.
Well then explain it, because I still can't get it.
Ronaldo maintained a much higher level of performances than Ronaldinho did. That's shown by the fact he won consecutive FWPOTY awards, like Ronaldinho did, and then followed it up by coming in second place the year after(Ronaldinho came third the year after). He then went that one big step further by winning it a third time and came third in it the year after.
I remember people talking about how he was the best player since Maradona, he was slightly overrated by some.
I've heard the same argument for Messi against us.
Ronaldo wasn't doing that against top teams when he was playing like that with no end product, he was doing that against the likes of Bolton and Lyon.
It's not the same.
I agree, which is why I only added it on rather than used it as real proof.
I wouldn't say Messi's proven himself as a big game player yet anyway, and I don't remember many saying he is. Although I missed the last two or three pages of this thread so maybe they did.
I had an argument in real life with some people about the same thing. They were going on about him best since Maradona as well!
Ronaldo against Liverpool in the 2-1 game when Silvestre scored both goals was super. And I am not completey sure but I think he was our best player when he came on against AC Milan in the home game which we lost 1-0 due to Carroll blunder. Not to mention his performance against Arsenal in the FA cup final and also the brace at highbury. Ronaldo's first three seasons are very underrated by United fans.
He maintained it for 4 years! Is that not long enough? Ronaldo's career hasn't alwaus been up aswell for obvious reasons. Lets be honest aswell was he really the best player in the world when he won his last acculade?? I don't thinks so he had a good world cup and everyone was so happy to see him back that they gave him the award!
4 seasons....mmm I would like you to list those 4 seasons.
Thank you for pointing them games out, i was about to do that myself. Plus add the Euro's to that aswell where only Ashley Cole managed to put a good job on him, which also says alot about Ronaldo because Ashley was a really good left back!
I think Davids' contribution was somewhat overstated. No one seems to mention that they had actually 'gotten their act together' a fair few games before Davids came on board, something that coincided with Xavi finally beginning to mature into an actual player and taking charge of games consistently instead of living off potential.
That said, he played well even when the team wasn't.
Ronaldo was great against Liverpool, but not extra ordinary. He was brilliant against Arsenal in the cup final. Both Keane and Giggs were better than Ronaldo at Highbury.
I remember the brace at Highbury and his two FA Cup final performances well now actually, so fair enough. Can't remember Ronaldo standing out in the other two, but I'll take your word for it.
So then they're both just on the edge of what you'd call big game players, and Ronaldo looks like he has it in him to step it up any time soon.
Seriously from when he joined Barca up untill the season from his last he transformed the club. The 1st season he started late through injury but once he started going, you could see the quality! To be honest his 1st season even supprised me, i'm sure he was there top goalscorer aswell.
I don't think that's way out there. The best players since Maradona I'd rate as Romario, Zidane, [fatty] Ronaldo and Ronaldinho as being a tier above the rest of the 'best in the world' players that have been around since (like Figo, Kaka, Rivaldo, Nedved and the like). I think Ronaldo and Zidane were better, but I recognise there are arguments for him being just as good.
I never said he was extraordinary. I remember him hitting the post after a run from around half way line though. And other players being better than him does not belittle his performance. Again not 100% sure, but I think Rooney was better than him in the FA cup final as well.
Also Messi himself was not Barca's best player in the games Brwned talked about.
To clarify, I do think Messi has imposed him in big games more than Ronnie. But that part is over emphasized and IMO has a lot to do with difference in big game encounters in Spain and England. Also if you take our legs against Barca into account, Messi seemed better than the two owing to the fact our strategy was mainly to defend while Barca committed much more men forward. And even then Ronaldo should have had atleast one pen in Nou Camp. (Not counting the missed pen)
I am not sure about Milan game myself, just a hunch. Can't find any videos as well.
Edit: I think he set up a sitter for Fortune in that match.
fair enough, but as I said in the other thread, these extraordinary performances might be difference between Ronaldo and the best players ever. Forget about creating a tap in for others or scoring a brace, you should just run over everybody in your way. I can only think of the Arsenal cup final performance from Ronaldo that can be mentioned like that.
I think an argument can be made that Rivaldo at his pomp was better than Ronaldinho but did not have the same players surrounding him and hence did not win as much. Baggio for one was definitely better than Ronaldinhio.
I'll maybe give you it that he had a 'great' season in his first one, just about, and he undoubtedly had two great ones after then. His last two seasons were far from great though.
I do agree he didn't deserve to win that award, but great tournaments are normally very important and he was undeniably great in that World Cup.
Ronaldo was never as good at Madrid as he was previously but it was a very slow and steady decline, which the same can't be said for Ronaldinho. He was still the La Liga top scorer in 03/04 and put in some impressive performances that season(namely the ones against Valencia and Deportivo IIRC).
He had Figo, Luis Enrique, Guardiola, Kluivert, Xavi, Overmars, Petit to name a few. He had good players around him and was given all the credit he deserves, it was the fact the Ronaldinho was so good he made them forget about Ronaldo! Whether he had season that was better than Ronaldinho's best season for Barca, i guess it's just a preference of opinions.
Xavi was not no where near the same player as today. Neither were Overmars, Petit, Kluivert in the same legaue as Etoo, or Deco.
Ronaldo was dead to Barca fans when he signed for Real. I am talking about Rivaldo. Though I am not sure about this one myself. Ronaldinhio, if I had to choose one but I won't shout down someone saying Rivaldo was better than him.
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