Lionel Messi

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Cal? said:
MoTM, well, if you hand those out, Messi will get all 38, even the ones he doesn't play in.

As for Portugal, suffice the say the rest of the Portugal team is nowhere near as goos as the Argentina team, also Argentina is in the much much easier qualifying group.
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Well if anyone has watched barcelonas matches this season and wouldnt give a guy who has scored 5 goals with 3 assists in 3 starts at least 2 motm awards i'd be pretty surprised.

Ahh so when playing inferior opposition it doesnt count? FC Zurich, now there is a top side...

I forgot Portugal are woeful, just looking at their squad it really does lack quality. Especially when compared to genuine quality like Denmark, Sweden, Hungary, Albania and Malta...

Lets be honest, anyone talking about how Argentina or Portugal would struggle in their qualifying groups before they started would have been laughed at.
 
Cal? said:
Again, a sideway pass and Iniesta wacks it in from 30 yards makes it an assist, a great pass whilst Raul skies the ball from a few yards, is not. You get the drift?

What is this stupid argument about attempts now? Having less attempts is good? Have you actually turned into an Arsenal fan? Assists, assists, assists and an obsession with NOT shooting? :rolleyes:

Messi the standout player? :lol: Messi could be sitting in the physio room and you'd still call him the standout player.

The fact is Ronaldo has moved to a new league, is topscorer in that league right now, and have played the tougher games so far...
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Again you get your facts all wrong and look like a tool. David Villa is top scorer. Messi and Zlatan are on the same as your Ronaldo so where you get the idea he is top scorer from i have no idea. It's just your fantasy i guess ;)

I use stats like shots to show productivity. It shows a player is a better finisher when he has less shots and as many goals. It shows decision making too. If you hit a tonne of shots a few will go in. If you hit less shots but are scoring as many or more goals then i think that shows something. Chance conversion rates and all that.

As for assists, yes i rate them. I think when a player shows sublime skill to put it on a plate for a team mate it is noteworthy. It is a flawed statistic no doubt about that but it counts for something for me. i rate creativity and the ability to create chances and set up goals as highly as i do as scoring them.

You dont, you only see goals. The build up might mean nothing to you but as a football fan it means something to me.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
:lol:
That is an amazing statement coming form someone who last season raved wildly about Messi's champions league deeds vs a Swiss team:lol:
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i did? i raved about his CL feats start to finish. THe only game he struggled was Chelsea. The whole team struggled and i think any team or any player playing against a team as organized and defensive as Hiddinks Chelsea for that game would struggle too.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
Well if anyone has watched barcelonas matches this season and wouldnt give a guy who has scored 5 goals with 3 assists in 3 starts at least 2 motm awards i'd be pretty surprised.

Ahh so when playing inferior opposition it doesnt count? FC Zurich, now there is a top side...

I forgot Portugal are woeful, just looking at their squad it really does lack quality. Especially when compared to genuine quality like Denmark, Sweden, Hungary, Albania and Malta...

Lets be honest, anyone talking about how Argentina or Portugal would struggle in their qualifying groups before they started would have been laughed at.
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Whilst you think the guy who has scored 5 goals in 4 starts in La Liga for Rela Madrid would not have a single MoTM award. :rolleyes:
 
FranklyVulgar said:
Again you get your facts all wrong and look like a tool. David Villa is top scorer. Messi and Zlatan are on the same as your Ronaldo so where you get the idea he is top scorer from i have no idea. It's just your fantasy i guess ;)

I use stats like shots to show productivity. It shows a player is a better finisher when he has less shots and as many goals. It shows decision making too. If you hit a tonne of shots a few will go in. If you hit less shots but are scoring as many or more goals then i think that shows something. Chance conversion rates and all that.

As for assists, yes i rate them. I think when a player shows sublime skill to put it on a plate for a team mate it is noteworthy. It is a flawed statistic no doubt about that but it counts for something for me. i rate creativity and the ability to create chances and set up goals as highly as i do as scoring them.

You dont, you only see goals. The build up might mean nothing to you but as a football fan it means something to me.
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Ah, so I forgot about the Valencia team who are struggling in midtable. My apologies...

It's that easy, is it? I wonder why nobody else thought about shooting loads, afterall, "a few will go in". :lol:

Ever occured to you Ronaldo attempts more shots because he gets into those positions more often?

The problem with assists is that "when a player shows sublime skill to put it on a plate for a team mate it is noteworthy" counts as much as a 2 yard pass before a player wacks it in from 30 yards.

Also, "when a player shows sublime skill to put it on a plate for a team mate" and said team mate screws up, it doesn't count.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Yes. In this very thread. No one needs to dig it up for you. In fact you've ever raved over him murdering the likes of Recretivo.
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yup and madrid, and lyon and bayern and atletico and villarreal and a whole host of other teams... This thread was created to discuss his potential to go down as an all time great. He had quite a few rave worthy performances last season and has been a standout so far this term. THE standout in la liga so far.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
yup and madrid, and lyon and bayern and atletico and villarreal and a whole host of other teams... This thread was created to discuss his potential to go down as an all time great. He had quite a few rave worthy performances last season and has been a standout so far this term. THE standout in la liga so far.
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It's debatable if he's even the standout at Barca this season. :rolleyes:
 
Cal? said:
Ah, so I forgot about the Valencia team who are struggling in midtable. My apologies...

It's that easy, is it? I wonder why nobody else thought about shooting loads, afterall, "a few will go in". :lol:

Ever occured to you Ronaldo attempts more shots because he gets into those positions more often?

The problem with assists is that "when a player shows sublime skill to put it on a plate for a team mate it is noteworthy" counts as much as a 2 yard pass before a player wacks it in from 30 yards.

Also, "when a player shows sublime skill to put it on a plate for a team mate" and said team mate screws up, it doesn't count.
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Yup, but if you do it as often as the likes of Messi then it does count. THat's the point. If you look at assist stats it tends to be play makers and great passers that top them. Yes many times the player wont score but over the course of 5 games/10 games a season it will be a decent reflection of a players creativity/ability to create good chances for team mates.

It's chance conversion. If you get yourself into great positions yet score once every 6 times you shoot then you arent as productive as a player who manages to convert one in two.

Anyway you look at this it is hard to shine a light on Ronaldo over Messi. If ROnaldo is getting into great positions then he is missing a lot of chances. On the other hand if Messi isnt getting into positions then he must be a far superior finisher.

Personally i dont believe Messi is any better at finishing than Ronaldo but Ronaldo likes a shot and tries to score from distance or anytime he sees any openings which explains his high shot count. If he was in great positions everytime he tries a shot he'd have scored a lot more going by the number of shots taken.

Also Ronaldo really cares about goal scoring, Messi doesnt. Ronaldo sulked when subbed off because he wanted to score more goals. He wants the pichichi, it is one of his goals. Messi doesnt care about it, he is more focused on performing for the team than personal accolades.
 
Cal? said:
It's debatable if he's even the standout at Barca this season. :rolleyes:
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:lol:

you havent watched much then have you. It's not debatable at all, if one other posters agrees that with you that Messi hasnt been the standout for Barcelona so far (4 games ffs) then i'll be very surprised.

I don't understand why it's so hard for you to admit something so obvious.

ROnaldo has done brilliantly for Madrid so far, the team havent played well but he has delivered goals and despite not being in great form made sure the team is top of the table. He didnt score at the weekend but Benzema showed his worth so the dependency on Ronaldo wasnt as evident.

Ronaldo has made a great start to his career at Madrid. Very simelar to the start Zlatan has made at Barcelona but the standout player in La Liga has been Messi so far, quite clearly.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
Yup, but if you do it as often as the likes of Messi then it does count. THat's the point. If you look at assist stats it tends to be play makers and great passers that top them. Yes many times the player wont score but over the course of 5 games/10 games a season it will be a decent reflection of a players creativity/ability to create good chances for team mates.

It's chance conversion. If you get yourself into great positions yet score once every 6 times you shoot then you arent as productive as a player who manages to convert one in two.

Anyway you look at this it is hard to shine a light on Ronaldo over Messi. If ROnaldo is getting into great positions then he is missing a lot of chances. On the other hand if Messi isnt getting into positions then he must be a far superior finisher.

Personally i dont believe Messi is any better at finishing than Ronaldo but Ronaldo likes a shot and tries to score from distance or anytime he sees any openings which explains his high shot count. If he was in great positions everytime he tries a shot he'd have scored a lot more going by the number of shots taken.

Also Ronaldo really cares about goal scoring, Messi doesnt. Ronaldo sulked when subbed off because he wanted to score more goals. He wants the pichichi, it is one of his goals. Messi doesnt care about it, he is more focused on performing for the team than personal accolades.
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Apparently being driven is also a bad point now. :rolleyes:

The way to look at this is that Ronaldo has scored more goals than Messi this season, how many shoots they took respectively matters little.

If he gets into position to shoot enough times over the course of the game and shoots more, there is nothing wrong with that.

I'm bored of the assists thing now, you can go talk about it to Arsenal fans, they love that stat as much as you do.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
yup and madrid, and lyon and bayern and atletico and villarreal and a whole host of other teams... ....
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That isn't the point. If you could rave about Messi's deeds vs Recretivo and Basel. You have no grounds to start belittling a Ronaldo for murdering sides like Zurich. It's that simple.

Your excuse that Real have had easier fixtures than Barca should just stop. What matters is Ronaldo doing the job required of him. & he has been doing so. Without yet truly hitting fire for 90 minutes yet. He was brought to help REAL win matches. Not beat 10 people per game with wonder dribbles and lay on assists.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
:lol:

you havent watched much then have you. It's not debatable at all, if one other posters agrees that with you that Messi hasnt been the standout for Barcelona so far (4 games ffs) then i'll be very surprised.

I don't understand why it's so hard for you to admit something so obvious.

ROnaldo has done brilliantly for Madrid so far, the team havent played well but he has delivered goals and despite not being in great form made sure the team is top of the table. He didnt score at the weekend but Benzema showed his worth so the dependency on Ronaldo wasnt as evident.

Ronaldo has made a great start to his career at Madrid. Very simelar to the start Zlatan has made at Barcelona but the standout player in La Liga has been Messi so far, quite clearly.
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I just don't watch games with the preconceived notion that Messi is amazing like you do.

Ronaldo has done just as much as Messi so far in La Liga, this despite moving to a new league and playing in a new team.
 
I made the point with regards to a comment cal made.

My only problem with the zurich game was that both goals werent very good. The first was really well struck but it was close to the keeper and you would expect the keeper to save it. The 2nd was chucked in by the keeper. Now you can rave about these goals but i wont, i didnt see anything special in them. If he had scored 2 goals, one fantastic free kick and another with a peice of magic i would applaud it, even against Zurich. JUst like i did when he scored a cracker against Villarreal.
 
Cal? said:
I just don't watch games with the preconceived notion that Messi is amazing like you do.

Ronaldo has done just as much as Messi so far in La Liga, this despite moving to a new league and playing in a new team.
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Thats the thing though cal, he hasnt but you wont admit it. Messi has played less minutes, less games scored as many goals and performed on a much higher level so far.

I watch Ronaldo expecting an awful lot and i watch Messi expecting an awful lot too. Messi has delivered so far and in quite a spectacular mannor. If they gave player of the month awards in spain he'd have won it, you'll dismiss that because i said it but if anyone has watched Messi so far for Barca they would agree. The only conclusion i can come to is that you havent bothered to watch any barcelona matches.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
I made the point with regards to a comment cal made.

My only problem with the zurich game was that both goals werent very good. The first was really well struck but it was close to the keeper and you would expect the keeper to save it. The 2nd was chucked in by the keeper. Now you can rave about these goals but i wont, i didnt see anything special in them. If he had scored 2 goals, one fantastic free kick and another with a peice of magic i would applaud it, even against Zurich. JUst like i did when he scored a cracker against Villarreal.
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Has anyone been "raving" about those goals? :rolleyes:

Goals are goals, the fact is that Ronaldo has 2 goals in the CL this season when Messi has ZERO.

You can only beat the team in front of you.

Oh, Real have had harder fixtures than Barca in La Liga so far...
 
Cal? said:
Has anyone been "raving" about those goals? :rolleyes:

Goals are goals, the fact is that Ronaldo has 2 goals in the CL this season when Messi has ZERO.

You can only beat the team in front of you.

Oh, Real have had harder fixtures than Barca in La Liga so far...
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you hate la liga, you dont know anything about it. Real have had it easier so far no doubt about that.

Anyway, clearly you wont ever give messi the credit he deserves.

I'm actually warming to Ronaldo this season, he seems focused and driven. Last season i thought he was a disgrace for large parts, his antics infuriated me. THis season i'm coming around to him.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
Thats the thing though cal, he hasnt but you wont admit it. Messi has played less minutes, less games scored as many goals and performed on a much higher level so far.

I watch Ronaldo expecting an awful lot and i watch Messi expecting an awful lot too. Messi has delivered so far and in quite a spectacular mannor. If they gave player of the month awards in spain he'd have won it, you'll dismiss that because i said it but if anyone has watched Messi so far for Barca they would agree. The only conclusion i can come to is that you havent bothered to watch any barcelona matches.
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This coming from the guy who insisted Messi was MoTM against United in 07/08 at OT or against Chelsea in 08/09 at SB is far from convincing.

You'll always believe Messi is "performing at a much higher level" because you watch these games with that assumption and anything that happens in the game will only confirm your belief.

The only conclusion I can draw is that you don't bother watching Real Madrid, Ronaldo has been very efficient for them despite not much understanding with his team mates.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
I made the point with regards to a comment cal made.

My only problem with the zurich game was that both goals werent very good. The first was really well struck but it was close to the keeper and you would expect the keeper to save it. The 2nd was chucked in by the keeper. Now you can rave about these goals but i wont, i didnt see anything special in them. If he had scored 2 goals, one fantastic free kick and another with a peice of magic i would applaud it, even against Zurich. JUst like i did when he scored a cracker against Villarreal.
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Better than nothing. :lol:

We should just take the piss saying Ronaldo is great, Messi is his servant. Doesn't matter what the truth is.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
I made the point with regards to a comment cal made.

My only problem with the zurich game was that both goals werent very good. The first was really well struck but it was close to the keeper and you would expect the keeper to save it. The 2nd was chucked in by the keeper. Now you can rave about these goals but i wont, i didnt see anything special in them. If he had scored 2 goals, one fantastic free kick and another with a peice of magic i would applaud it, even against Zurich. JUst like i did when he scored a cracker against Villarreal.
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Messi' goals vs Basel for example were against rank shit defending. It didn't stop you praising them. But I saw you criticize some of Ronado's goals from open play this season using that excuse. Which is plain double standards.

A quality goal is a quality goal. What should matter is the quality the scorer produced when scoring it. Not the woeful attempts of to stop it from those defending against him.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
you hate la liga, you dont know anything about it. Real have had it easier so far no doubt about that.

Anyway, clearly you wont ever give messi the credit he deserves.

I'm actually warming to Ronaldo this season, he seems focused and driven. Last season i thought he was a disgrace for large parts, his antics infuriated me. THis season i'm coming around to him.
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When did I ever say I hate La Liga? I have said La Liga is terrible defensively and nothing this season has changed my mind, in fact, it's only confirmed my view.

Clearly you won't give Ronaldo the credit he deserves.

Real Madrid:
Deportivo (H)
Espanyol (A)
Xerez (H)
Villarreal (A)
Tenerife (H)

Barca:
Gijon (H)
Getafe (A)
At Madrid (H)
Racing (A)
Malaga (A)

Both have had 1 slightly harder game, and AWAY at Villarreal is definitely harder than HOME to Atletico. Villarreal only finished 2pts behind Atletico last season, so I think it's fair to say they are of a similar standard.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Messi' goals vs Basel for example were against rank shit defending. It didn't stop you praising them. But I saw you criticize some of Ronado's goals from open play this season using that excuse. Which is plain double standards.

A quality goal is a quality goal. What should matter is the quality the scorer produced when scoring it. Not the woeful attempts of to stop it from those defending against him.
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point was the goals against Zurich werent all that great in my opinion...
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
They weren't great in any one's opinion. My point was strictly about goals from open play and free kicks which are actually hit well. Not let into the net by a terrible keeper.
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I dont get it. You point out me saying the goals against Zurich were not great. You then say me talking about Messi scoring a great goal against Basel, he came on the pitch at around 60mins when it is 0-0 and scores a fine individual goal which underlined his class and was a key contribution at the time.

They are different circumstances in my opinion, one was a peice of individual magic whilst Ronaldos were down to poor goalkeeping.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
I dont get it. You point out me saying the goals against Zurich were not great. You then say me talking about Messi scoring a great goal against Basel, he came on the pitch at around 60mins when it is 0-0 and scores a fine individual goal which underlined his class and was a key contribution at the time.

They are different circumstances in my opinion, one was a peice of individual magic whilst Ronaldos were down to poor goalkeeping.
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FFS

What part of goals from open play don't you understand?

You want to deny you dissed a very good goal Ronaldo scored from open play this season, putting it down to shit defending?


Besides do you want to deny that you have been acting like Ronaldo's champions league goals vs Zurich count for little simply because they were gifts from the keeper when Cal say Ron has scored more than Messi in Europe thus far?

When earlier in this thread you took offence to anyone down playing Messi's champion's league goals vs Basel?
 
I'm not denying anything, if you are talking about Ronaldos goal against Villarreal i thought it was brilliant.

I was pointing out that Barca were away to Inter Milan and Real were playing Zurich. A massive difference and hardly a way for Cal to talk about how Ronaldo has been the best player so far when he clearly hasnt.

I cant even remember anyone playing down his champions league goals, well i do but that was against Lyon and Bayern which i found a little odd but nonetheless. I dont think i've said anything too antagonistic for a while and as i already said i'm actually warming to Ronaldo. His attitude has been good and that was my main gripe with him last year, he had the worst attitude in the United team by a mile. His behavior at times was a disgrace to the game but when he has his nut screwed and lets his football do the talking i respect him more and more.
 
If FV and Cal? were banned from discussing messi and ronaldo in any shape or form, there might be some kind of worthwhile discussion of either (preferably not in comparison).
 
I'm nothing like cal, i take offence to anyone suggesting otherwise. People like cal and co have given this impression that i am some anti-ronaldo pro messi fan boy. I'm hardly either, B9 i implore you to read the last few pages or posts between me and cal. On the one hand you have a man of reason and on the other you have a man of dementia.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
I'm not denying anything, if you are talking about Ronaldos goal against Villarreal i thought it was brilliant.
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I was talking about the goal vs the second team REAL played in the league. When Ron came off the bench.

FranklyVulgar said:
I was pointing out that Barca were away to Inter Milan and Real were playing Zurich. A massive difference and hardly a way for Cal to talk about how Ronaldo has been the best player so far when he clearly hasnt.
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Cal right about 2 things. 1)Ronaldo has score more than the rest whilst only settling in. 2) Vija's assertion that many have been having a better season than him is arse wipe.

But the rest of his points get clouded by bias and get lost in translation.

FranklyVulgar said:
I cant even remember anyone playing down his champions league goals, well i do but that was against Lyon and Bayern which i found a little odd but nonetheless.
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Trust me some of the Basel goals where also ridiculed on here too. Which I agree was odd. & IMO such goals shouldn't be treat that way.

I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm picking on you. But my statements in fairness is mainly aimed at anyone commenting on goals. Unless silly errors where made like that of the Zurich keeper.

I've noticed players like Zlatan and Berbatov to name a few ridiculed in this fashion because of who they scored against. To the extent that for Zltan, for example, his goal vs Atletico wasn't classed as scoring in a big game:lol:

FranklyVulgar said:
I dont think i've said anything too antagonistic for a while
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TBF you've been at it with Cal. In that situation it's had to not say such things to be fair.:D

FranklyVulgar said:
and as i already said i'm actually warming to Ronaldo. His attitude has been good and that was my main gripe with him last year, he had the worst attitude in the United team by a mile. His behavior at times was a disgrace to the game but when he has his nut screwed and lets his football do the talking i respect him more and more.
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Fair enough.
 
I thought the goal in his 2nd game was a good goal but people saying it was brilliant i thought was off the mark. A good through ball, a clear run at the keeper and a good shot which beat the keeper at his near post (which shouldnt happen) isnt a great goal. It was a good goal though.

I agree with you about goals though, if a guy bangs one in the top corner from 25 yards and it hits the underside of the bar it could be sunday league or against Chelsea it's still a fecking great goal.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
I thought the goal in his 2nd game was a good goal but people saying it was brilliant i thought was off the mark. A good through ball, a clear run at the keeper and a good shot which beat the keeper at his near post (which shouldnt happen) isnt a great goal. It was a good goal though.

I agree with you about goals though, if a guy bangs one in the top corner from 25 yards and it hits the underside of the bar it could be sunday league or against Chelsea it's still a fecking great goal.
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In did. It's amazing how goals form certain players get dissed.

Zlatan's goal vs Atletico was being played down.:lol: Yet the house would come down if E'too was to score it for Inter vs anyone in Serie A.:rolleyes:

& even an important goal for us by berba against Stoke away was being dissed because a certain Keane had scored 4 at home vs fecking Burnley. The double standards on here at times are shameful really.
 
Of course, i actually had a look back in this thread to find out what i said about Messis goal agaisnt Basel and came across people really ripping into Messis goal against Lyon in the CL...

Also cals point about assists talking about how both giggs assists were brilliant when really i'd put the first one down to a great team move. Fletcher played the key pass to Giggs who made a great run, at the same time Berbatov made a great run, it was all fluid and based on anticipation but it was the first pass from fletcher that set it up. All giggs had to do was show awareness to square it to Berbatov and we all know giggs has terrific awareness.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
Of course, i actually had a look back in this thread to find out what i said about Messis goal agaisnt Basel and came across people really ripping into Messis goal against Lyon in the CL...

Also cals point about assists talking about how both giggs assists were brilliant when really i'd put the first one down to a great team move. Fletcher played the key pass to Giggs who made a great run, at the same time Berbatov made a great run, it was all fluid and based on anticipation but it was the first pass from fletcher that set it up. All giggs had to do was show awareness to square it to Berbatov and we all know giggs has terrific awareness.
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True.

On another not the sad thing about assists is that it is a stat about giving credit to the first part of a coupe de grace. I ignoring totally any move that lead to it, or any brilliance executed by the receiver of it, inspite of it. If you get what I mean...

Assist are usually just the first part of a Coupe de Grace. But if the coupe de grace is not executed by the receiver of the pass. Even the great creative play that made that pass is sadly forgotten.
 
Satanic verses from the renowned cobbler Valdano

Lionel Messi Will Win The Ballon d'Or, But Cristiano Ronaldo Deserves It - Jorge Valdano
Real Madrid's director general thinks that the Barca ace will scoop the prestigious award because of his early-year success. However, he has stated that Ronaldo is a better candidate for the gong.

Jorge Valdano believes that Lionel Messi of Barcelona will win the coveted Ballon d'Or ahead of Real Madrid's Cristiano Ronaldo, though he doesn't believe that should be the case.

Messi helped guide Barca to a unique treble last season and was a member of a front line who scored over 100 goals, along with Thierry Henry and Samuel Eto'o.

"Each in his way is a star from a higher dimension," Valdano was quoted as saying by AS.

"Messi because he runs with the ball attached to the foot, is very effective in one-on-one's and shoots well with his left leg.

"Cristiano because he is fast, with great control of the ball at speed, tremendous power, tremendous continuity during the game, because he is currently the best striker in the world.

"Ronaldo would deserve it, but I've always thought the Ballon d'Or is awarded for what one did until July. Messi won it all."

Anyone thinking Cristiano Ronaldo to be in reckoning for the award itself is a tosser by himself, here this thug tries his best to work for his wage, with a ridiculous comparison with Jesus himself. I hope both Real Madrid and Valdano go down the gutter dragging Ronaldo with them, it should happen eventually....
 
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