Lionel Messi

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FranklyVulgar said:
A fan boy for saying Ferguson is pish?

ask any member of the tartan army, ask SAF ;)

Our midfield is better off without him, Thomson in the holding role with Fletch and Brown in front. I love that midfield, best scotland midfield in about 20 years...

as for a demotion, it would be rather humorous although i quite like the idea of a bunch of pitch fork wielding Neanderthals trapped in the world of the newbie forum awaiting their release so they can run me out of town. :lol:
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No, for saying Messi is a better player than Archie Gemmill of course.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
Yeah everyone says Messi is the best because they want to keep good relations, despite Capello and Lippi both having ZERO chance of purchasing him, unless transfers between national sides is now permitted?

Fine, Fergie does think Ronaldo is the best. He hasnt and will never work with Messi. Everyone who has worked with Messi says he is the best, surprising? not really. I'm more interested in what impartial people say. Fergie saying Ronaldo is the best is no better than Mourinho saying Lampard or Zlatan is the best. He has relations with these players just like SAF has a fantastic relationship with Ronaldo. Ronaldo is "his boy" Ronaldo. Can't you see that?

It wasnt me who claimed Messi was motm, personally i cant remember that game. My over riding memory of the game at Stamford bridge was Messi getting a man sent off and constantly ripping assly cole and hitting the bar. What was he 18 at the time? it was phenomenal to watch.

You do realize that the world thought he was MOTM in that game,

from the BBC

So please continue to "ridicule" me for opinions shared by the rest of the world.
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Clearly Lippi & Capello made those comments after taking up their most recent posts... Never mind the fact that Lippi quote was years ago in a club friendly. :rolleyes:

These "everyone" who has worked with Messi are mostly connected to him somehow - Barca legends, Argentine legends - no but only Sir Alex is biased towards ex-United player, all these people are "impartial". :wenger:

Hmm... I was talking about the semifinal - trust you to twist my point round.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
A fan boy for saying Ferguson is pish?

ask any member of the tartan army, ask SAF ;)

Our midfield is better off without him, Thomson in the holding role with Fletch and Brown in front. I love that midfield, best scotland midfield in about 20 years...

as for a demotion, it would be rather humorous although i quite like the idea of a bunch of pitch fork wielding Neanderthals trapped in the world of the newbie forum awaiting their release so they can run me out of town. :lol:
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I dunno, potentially maybe. But our midfield has always been comparatively strong. From the Fletcher-Hartley-Ferguson-Brown midfield that did so well against France, Italy and Ukraine a couple of years ago, to when Lambert, Ferguson and Burley were in their prime around 99/00, and before that at Euro 96 when when we had McCallister, Collins and McCall all doing the business, it's always been one of our strongest suits. It's the rest of the squad which concerns me.
 
Gio said:
I dunno, potentially maybe. But our midfield has always been comparatively strong. From the Fletcher-Hartley-Ferguson-Brown midfield that did so well against France, Italy and Ukraine a couple of years ago, to when Lambert, Ferguson and Burley were in their prime around 99/00, and before that at Euro 96 when when we had McCallister, Collins and McCall all doing the business, it's always been one of our strongest suits. It's the rest of the squad which concerns me.
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Don't remember me those:lol: , one sided matches if I ever saw them
 
FranklyVulgar said:
Ronaldo took all uniteds penalties and free kicks. Messi takes the odd free kick and half the penalties.

Also quite a few of messis goals from last season were strikes from outside the box, headers and also taken with his right foot. Which nobody seems to mention either.

When you look at shots on goal Messi hits a lot fewer, his goal to shot ratio puts Ronaldos to shame. The champions league final proved that, 2 shots 1 goal for Messi, Ronaldo had about 6? 7? 8? shots?

If he hits a million shots and isn't scoring regularly the madrid fans will jeer him.
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I'd be more interested to know how many penalties either took. I'd make a strong bet that they are about even.

He had about two or three headed goals, counting from those highlights of his 38 goals. Hardly dominant in the air. Ronaldo has much, much more, not counting the ones saved by the keeper.

As for shot-to-goal ratio, so fecking what? All it tells me is, despite being one of the most tightly-marked and fouled players in the league, Ronaldo still found the space to shoot. A more telling statistic is how many of those shots were wayward no-hopers and how many worked the keeper or were not far off.

Ronaldo's a better player. More complete.
 
Cal? said:
Clearly Lippi & Capello made those comments after taking up their most recent posts... Never mind the fact that Lippi quote was years ago in a club friendly. :rolleyes:

These "everyone" who has worked with Messi are mostly connected to him somehow - Barca legends, Argentine legends - no but only Sir Alex is biased towards ex-United player, all these people are "impartial". :wenger:

Hmm... I was talking about the semifinal - trust you to twist my point round.
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You know this how? clearly you have no idea since both Capello and Lippi said it this year...

The part in the middle is pure spasticated. My point regarding SAF was that he had worked with Ronaldo. I dismissed anyone who had worked with Messi already as far from impartial which is why unlike you i'm not holding onto the words of one man with whom Ronaldo had a special relationship.

Right i thought you were talking about years ago since you mentioned a Madrid game with Ronaldinho right before it. With regards to this years semi final he wasnt motm.
 
marcus agrippa said:
I'd be more interested to know how many penalties either took. I'd make a strong bet that they are about even.

He had about two or three headed goals, counting from those highlights of his 38 goals. Hardly dominant in the air. Ronaldo has much, much more, not counting the ones saved by the keeper.

As for shot-to-goal ratio, so fecking what? All it tells me is, despite being one of the most tightly-marked and fouled players in the league, Ronaldo still found the space to shoot. A more telling statistic is how many of those shots were wayward no-hopers and how many worked the keeper or were not far off.

Ronaldo's a better player. More complete.
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Also the fact that Messi creates more for others and give away the ball less.

All anyone has to put forward for Ronaldo is that he is "more complete". So because you can use two feet, are great in the air and are physically as impressive as any player in history you are "more complete" and a better player.

Messi may not have two feet, great physical attributes or be a great header of the ball but what he does for his team is more valuble than any of these things. His dribbling, passing, decisivness and all round team play is on another level,

It's for that reason he is the best in the world, for that reason if you offered £100million for Messi it wouldnt even be considered.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
Also the fact that Messi creates more for others and give away the ball less.

All anyone has to put forward for Ronaldo is that he is "more complete". So because you can use two feet, are great in the air and are physically as impressive as any player in history you are "more complete" and a better player.

Messi may not have two feet, great physical attributes or be a great header of the ball but what he does for his team is more valuble than any of these things. His dribbling, passing, decisivness and all round team play is on another level,

It's for that reason he is the best in the world, for that reason if you offered £100million for Messi it wouldnt even be considered.
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Well you are entitled to your opinion, but everyone keep in mind that that's all it is.

In my opinion, you can't selectively choose which attributes to consider.
 
"It's for that reason he is the best in the world, for that reason if you offered £100million for Messi it wouldnt even be considered."
It would not be considered because Messi wouldn't wanna leave ......
 
Cal? said:
Ronaldo in 07/08 had the best season of any player in decades.

Clearly better than Ronaldinho or Henry ever was. Zidane has had better moments, but not a season as good as that.

As for Messi, only Arse fans add goals to assists. Is it Ronaldo's fault that Rooney had a bad year in front of goal? :wenger:

As Sir Alex said quite clearly, Cristiano Ronaldo is the best player in the World, it's beyond debate!! :smirk:
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:wenger:

I dont see Ronaldo's season any better than Herny's best seasons at Arsenal.
Two more seasons like 06/07 I wouldn't have reservations in admitting he's a better footballer than Henry or Ronaldinho.

From then on he needs to dominate and win big matches consistently to be rated on par with Zidane or Fat Ronaldo which is long way off. As of now he's no where near to that level.
 
vijay said:
:wenger:

I dont see Ronaldo's season any better than Herny's best seasons at Arsenal.
Two more seasons like 06/07 I wouldn't have reservations in admitting he's a better footballer than Henry or Ronaldinho.

From then on he needs to dominate and win big matches consistently to be rated on par with Zidane or Fat Ronaldo which is long way off. As of now he's no where near to that level.
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I think Ronaldo surpassed Henry a long time ago. I think you're looking back with rose tinted glasses, despite the phenomenal player he was, the 06/07 and 07/08 seasons together showed that Ronaldo was almost unequalled on the global front, let alone the Premier League.

Ronaldo is the better dribbler, probably could match/slightly slower than Henry for pace, deadly finishing, two footed, huge aerial threat, set piece delivery and overall skill.
 
Addis said:
I think Ronaldo surpassed Henry a long time ago. I think you're looking back with rose tinted glasses, despite the phenomenal player he was, the 06/07 and 07/08 seasons together showed that Ronaldo was almost unequalled on the global front, let alone the Premier League.

Ronaldo is the better dribbler, probably could match/slightly slower than Henry for pace, deadly finishing, two footed, huge aerial threat, set piece delivery and overall skill.
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Ronaldo is a better dribbler, but Henry had a better strength on the ball and also a great finisher whilst Ronaldo fit in any system easily than Henry. From 02/06 Henry did every thing that Ronaldo did from 06/08 if not better and Henry of 08/09 was still better than Ronaldo of 08/09. All Ronaldo needs is to have are more cracking seasons put together again to be rated on par with Henry and Ronaldinho.
 
vijay said:
Ronaldo is a better dribbler, but Henry had a better strength on the ball and also a great finisher whilst Ronaldo fit in any system easily than Henry. From 02/06 Henry did every thing that Ronaldo did from 06/08 if not better and Henry of 08/09 was still better than Ronaldo of 08/09. All Ronaldo needs is to have are more cracking seasons put together again to be rated on par with Henry and Ronaldinho.
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Ronaldo is only 24, I think him and Messi are going to dominate football for years to come
 
FranklyVulgar said:
Also the fact that Messi creates more for others and give away the ball less.

All anyone has to put forward for Ronaldo is that he is "more complete". So because you can use two feet, are great in the air and are physically as impressive as any player in history you are "more complete" and a better player.

Messi may not have two feet, great physical attributes or be a great header of the ball but what he does for his team is more valuble than any of these things. His dribbling, passing, decisivness and all round team play is on another level,

It's for that reason he is the best in the world, for that reason if you offered £100million for Messi it wouldnt even be considered.
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I can see how being able to score using both feet, your head, and being able to brush past defenders at pace makes you less than a player who can't do two of those things at will.

I can totally see it.
 
marcus agrippa said:
I can see how being able to score using both feet, your head, and being able to brush past defenders at pace makes you less than a player who can't do two of those things at will.

I can totally see it.
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Me 2

steven_gerrard_hq_photo.jpg


FFS even this can do as many things you've tried to highlight. Its not FM you can divide a player's attribute as sum of parts and guage them.
 
Addis said:
What exactly are you saying? Are you agreeing with him?
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I dont agree with him.

As I had posted few pages before, comparint Ronaldinho with Fat Ronaldo..

Unlike Ronaldinho, Fat Ronaldo is not really a creative footballer, lesser tricks, nor a great header of the ball, doesnt chance his luck with set pieces nor can provide pull strings from behind but can blow away teams in his own style...much superior footballer to Dinho.

Comparing Ronaldo and Messi is similar to that. Messi can blow away teams whilst Ronaldo can play to a system and win matches.
 
vijay said:
I dont agree with him.

As I had posted few pages before, comparint Ronaldinho with Fat Ronaldo..

Unlike Ronaldinho, Fat Ronaldo is not really a creative footballer, lesser tricks, nor a great header of the ball, doesnt chance his luck with set pieces nor can provide pull strings from behind but can blow away teams in his own style...much superior footballer to Dinho.

Comparing Ronaldo and Messi is similar to that. Messi can blow away teams whilst Ronaldo can play to a system and win matches.
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Great.
 
vijay said:
I dont agree with him.

As I had posted few pages before, comparint Ronaldinho with Fat Ronaldo..

Unlike Ronaldinho, Fat Ronaldo is not really a creative footballer, lesser tricks, nor a great header of the ball, doesnt chance his luck with set pieces nor can provide pull strings from behind but can blow away teams in his own style...much superior footballer to Dinho.

Comparing Ronaldo and Messi is similar to that. Messi can blow away teams whilst Ronaldo can play to a system and win matches.
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What's that got to do with showing Gerrard's arse!:mad:
 
vijay said:
:wenger:

I dont see Ronaldo's season any better than Herny's best seasons at Arsenal.
Two more seasons like 06/07 I wouldn't have reservations in admitting he's a better footballer than Henry or Ronaldinho.

From then on he needs to dominate and win big matches consistently to be rated on par with Zidane or Fat Ronaldo which is long way off. As of now he's no where near to that level.
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Ronaldo surpassed Henry 2 seasons ago. For all Henry's bulldozing of the lesser teams in the PL, he never did it when it mattered most.

Ronaldo scored against all the other big 4 sides that season and got a CL final goal.

He's not quite up there with Zidane yet, as for fat Ronaldo, well, suffice to say I don't rate him nearly as highly as most people. His club career leaves a lot to be desired.
 
marcus agrippa said:
It's funny. Whenever people point out Ronaldo's goal tally, detractors are quick to say: "But how many of those were penalties and free kicks".

Well, I was watching that highlight clip of Messi's goals for last season, and quite a few were from penalties and free kicks. Funny how no one brings that up.

For me, Ronaldo's the better player. Less spectacular, but more of a threat. From set-pieces, from open play, in the air, a great athlete, and very physically imposing. The ideal of a modern footballer, where sheer athleticism meets skill.
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I endorse this.
 
Cal? said:
Ronaldo surpassed Henry 2 seasons ago. For all Henry's bulldozing of the lesser teams in the PL, he never did it when it mattered most.

Ronaldo scored against all the other big 4 sides that season and got a CL final goal.

He's not quite up there with Zidane yet, as for fat Ronaldo, well, suffice to say I don't rate him nearly as highly as most people. His club career leaves a lot to be desired.
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So the success one player can have with his clubs determine how good or bad he is ? If so that's some fecked up logic
 
Cal? said:
Ronaldo surpassed Henry 2 seasons ago. For all Henry's bulldozing of the lesser teams in the PL, he never did it when it mattered most.

Ronaldo scored against all the other big 4 sides that season and got a CL final goal.

He's not quite up there with Zidane yet, as for fat Ronaldo, well, suffice to say I don't rate him nearly as highly as most people. His club career leaves a lot to be desired.
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I fkin love Cal


..........LOVE HIM :lol::lol:
 
Cal? said:
as for fat Ronaldo, well, suffice to say I don't rate him nearly as highly as most people. His club career leaves a lot to be desired.
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Club record 437 games 336 goals av per g 0.74
Brazil 97 ,, 62 ,, av per g 0.63

Cruzeiro



PSV Eindhoven



Barcelona



Internazionale



Real Madrid



Corinthians



National team



Individual



Cal looks like you're right again .........yep another player who's got some way to go before he can lick Christiano Ronaldo's boots

"His club career leaves a lot to be desired." - magnificent - quote of the fking year so far

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
 
marcus agrippa said:
It's funny. Whenever people point out Ronaldo's goal tally, detractors are quick to say: "But how many of those were penalties and free kicks".

Well, I was watching that highlight clip of Messi's goals for last season, and quite a few were from penalties and free kicks. Funny how no one brings that up.

For me, Ronaldo's the better player. Less spectacular, but more of a threat. From set-pieces, from open play, in the air, a great athlete, and very physically imposing. The ideal of a modern footballer, where sheer athleticism meets skill.
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It's like last year when Ronaldo scored 31 in the league, and Swedish TV had a feature where they said "If you take away penalties, free kicks and goals from corners him and Torres ended up on the same amount of goals, which is interesting", suggesting that Torres and Ronaldo were equal as players that season, and that (if he'd been his team's first FK/penalty taker) he would've scored as many goals.

They failed to mention that this could suggest that Torres isn't as good a free kick/penalty taker as Ronaldo and not as much of an aerial threat as Ronaldo... So I guess you could twist facts all you want so that they fit into the point you're trying to make..
 
marcus agrippa said:
I can see how being able to score using both feet, your head, and being able to brush past defenders at pace makes you less than a player who can't do two of those things at will.

I can totally see it.
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You can't see it, there is more to football than being sound at every aspect of the game.

Very few players were brilliant at everything, Maradona was shorter than Messi and couldnt kick a ball with his right foot yet he's the greatest to have played the game.

But yeah, he couldnt do two of those things at will which makes him a lesser player?

It's what you do with the ball at your feet as the creative outlet of a team that determines for me how good a player you are. How some players are just good, they have that touch of genius, the vision, the awareness and that is the beauty of football for me.

Ronaldo is good at everything but Messi is a genius at some things and in football you can always find players who can head a ball, score with two feet, who are strong or fast and Ronaldo has all of them which makes him a special player but you really cant find anyone in world football right now who can do what Messi can.

This is of course my opinion, i'm just surprised after last season that people havent come around to what is plain to me and a few others around here. Messi is the real deal, watch him and enjoy it while you can.
 
Jopub said:



Club record 437 games 336 goals av per g 0.74
Brazil 97 ,, 62 ,, av per g 0.63

Cruzeiro



PSV Eindhoven



Barcelona



Internazionale



Real Madrid



Corinthians



National team



Individual



Cal looks like you're right again .........yep another player who's got some way to go before he can lick Christiano Ronaldo's boots

"His club career leaves a lot to be desired." - magnificent - quote of the fking year so far

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
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For all those topscorer & individual awards, how many major trophies has he won for his clubs? About as many important ones as Shearer... :o

It's not like he can blame the teammates for not being good enough, he's played for some of the biggest clubs in the world and won very little.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
You can't see it, there is more to football than being sound at every aspect of the game.

Very few players were brilliant at everything, Maradona was shorter than Messi and couldnt kick a ball with his right foot yet he's the greatest to have played the game.

But yeah, he couldnt do two of those things at will which makes him a lesser player?

It's what you do with the ball at your feet as the creative outlet of a team that determines for me how good a player you are. How some players are just good, they have that touch of genius, the vision, the awareness and that is the beauty of football for me.

Ronaldo is good at everything but Messi is a genius at some things and in football you can always find players who can head a ball, score with two feet, who are strong or fast and Ronaldo has all of them which makes him a special player but you really cant find anyone in world football right now who can do what Messi can.

This is of course my opinion, i'm just surprised after last season that people havent come around to what is plain to me and a few others around here. Messi is the real deal, watch him and enjoy it while you can.
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Do name the other players who can do what Ronaldo can, so we can let Sir Alex know where to find the replacement. :drool:

They're two very different players playing in similar positions, for everything that really matters in football - goals & results - Ronaldo is more effective than Messi.

If you rate player merely based on how pleasing on the eye they are, you're really missing the point.
 
Cal? said:
For all those topscorer & individual awards, how many major trophies has he won for his clubs? About as many important ones as Shearer... :o

It's not like he can blame the teammates for not being good enough, he's played for some of the biggest clubs in the world and won very little.
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Football is a team game after all and despite what you may think a player cannot win anything for his team singlehandedly. It's a myth. Maradona didnt even do it.

As an individual Ronaldo was a phenomenon. He may not have had a brilliant club career but then neither did Maradona yet what he did do is far greater and will not be forgotten.
 
Cal? said:
Do name the other players who can do what Ronaldo can, so we can let Sir Alex know where to find the replacement. :drool:

They're two very different players playing in similar positions, for everything that really matters in football - goals & results - Ronaldo is more effective than Messi.

If you rate player merely based on how pleasing on the eye they are, you're really missing the point.
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I'm saying you get players who can do all those things but Ronaldo can do them all and that is why he is Ronaldo...

Goals and results? then why does Messi have a better careerwise goals per game ratio? why does he have a better medal haul despite being 3 years younger?

facts cal? he's better, i doubt you'll ever admit it even when their careers are over and Messi goes down as a legend of the game.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
Football is a team game after all and despite what you may think a player cannot win anything for his team singlehandedly. It's a myth. Maradona didnt even do it.
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1986 world cup:drool:

Anyways what made Maradona special was he had the amazing ability to raise the level of his team mates play 3 times over. On top of being so good with his left peg that he didn't need another good one. He was also very strong and good aeriallyfor a shorty, with an amazing engine too.

FranklyVulgar said:
As an individual Ronaldo was a phenomenon. He may not have had a brilliant club career but then neither did Maradona yet what he did do is far greater and will not be forgotten.
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It is an utter myth that those two didn't have brilliant club careers tbf.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
I'm saying you get players who can do all those things but Ronaldo can do them all and that is why he is Ronaldo...
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The thing is Ronaldo is excellent at those things and improving at them every season so far. People seem to always overlook this fact.

FranklyVulgar said:
Messi goes down as a legend of the game.
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They'll both be legends. Even though its hard for you to accept it.
 
It's just in terms of medal haul Chief, they were fantastic players but because they dont have 10 league medals and a european cups people put them down...

Yeah but that argie side had many excellent players. Maradona knew he was the main man but he is always quick to point out how good some of the other players were and the contribution made by the whole team. He was the best player in the world an the leader of the team though and deserves the praise he gets but he wasnt a one man team.

Dont get me wrong, you could possibly have taken anyone else out that team and they would have still won, take maradona and they wouldnt.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
The thing is Ronaldo is excellent at those things and improving at them every season so far. People seem to always overlook this fact.

They'll both be legends. Even though its hard for you to accept it.
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I dont personally see Ronaldo getting much better, maybe he'll improve his attitude but as for his strenghs i think they are peaked, his pace, power etc

For me he'll never match his feats for United, the 06-08 was the best of Ronaldo.

Is Ronaldo a United legend? after his 6 years at the club?

I'd be surprised if he was.

Messi though, he can't be stopped.
 
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