Good crossing, creating space with pace intelligently is part of creativity I would have thought.
Lionel Messi
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I dont care chief, i'm entitled to be a cnut/wum/wank or whatever. I just read through some of the earlier posts in this thread, true it was at a time when Messi hadnt just surpassed anything Ronaldo had done and Barca hadnt just won the treble in a style rarely seen but even so the comments were worse than what i just said.
Sure, i just value a player with the eye and ability to execute a killer ball as more of a playmaker than a winger.
This is why you get stick on this forum, these comments are the type of comments WUMS generally do. Your biggest problem is you can not argue objectively, it almost seems impossible for you to do so what is the point actually discussing football?
This.
For sure it makes sense, Ronaldo isn't the type of playmaker Kaka is and Kaka isn't the type of winger Ronaldo can be among other roles (Ronaldo is a more versatile player).They're both different players in the way they approach the game, both very creative
You are not. You are expected to carry out discussions like an adult. Making foolish inflammatory pronouncements instead just breeds needless discord.
I highly doubt. Instead it was people like Vijay and at times you making such comments repeatedly about Ronaldo, which fueled the fires in here. As if it was so hard for you to praise Messi without dissing anyone else.
If people can not praise Messi without constantly talking about Ronaldo, something is seriously wrong
That league will gather more sissies than ever
Yes, although Kaka will even out things.
People cant mention messi without constantly bringing up Ronaldo, Boss you are new, this thread has been going on for ages i dont know if you read the thing at the time or have browsed it recently. If you look back you will find that in almost every thread i've commented on Ronaldo it has never been out of the blue, it's been in response to someone else belittling Messi and bigging up Ronaldo.
I praise Messi a lot, most of the time Ronaldo isnt mentioned but if he is in the discussion how can i not mention him. I cant ignore people just because they mention another player. If Ronaldo hadn't been brought into this thread it would have about 20 pages, not 110.
the "he basically shat ronaldo out" was said tongue in cheek with a little humour i thought.
I praise Messi a lot, most of the time Ronaldo isnt mentioned but if he is in the discussion how can i not mention him. I cant ignore people just because they mention another player. If Ronaldo hadn't been brought into this thread it would have about 20 pages, not 110.
the "he basically shat ronaldo out" was said tongue in cheek with a little humour i thought.
I've never encountered anyone who is as obsessed with their own opinion as you. Contrary to statistics and what the man most of here consider as the best manager EVER in the world thinks - you're right, you're always right. Sir Alex is an idiot for thinking Ronaldo is better and anyone who agrees with him are narrow minded and stupid.
Care to explain how Messi 08/09 was any better than Ronaldo 07/08? Don't tell me he dribbles better.
"He shat Ronaldo" out is just another in your long line of idiotic comments on this topic.
Not even worth my time replying to it.Good then, at least in comparison to others you are funny to "debate" with.
*time to leave out Cal? and FV*
*time to leave out Cal? and FV*
Wish I could take your word for it Franky, but when you make comments like "I'm entitled to be a Wum" what do you want people to believe?
I've never encountered anyone who is as obsessed with their own opinion as you. Contrary to statistics and what the man most of here consider as the best manager EVER in the world thinks - you're right, you're always right. Sir Alex is an idiot for thinking Ronaldo is better and anyone who agrees with him are narrow minded and stupid.
Care to explain how Messi 08/09 was any better than Ronaldo 07/08? Don't tell me he dribbles better.
"He shat Ronaldo" out is just another in your long line of idiotic comments on this topic.
SAF loves Ronaldo, probably more than he loves Darren Fletcher, possibly more than he loves Darren Ferguson ffs....
you take one man, a great man who basically shared many great wins and years with Ronaldo, treated him like no other and you find it surprising that he is loyal to him? You find it odd that SAF hasnt turned around as soon as Ronaldo left and scathed him? you find it odd that SAF is maintaining good relations with one of the best in the world on the off that he may one day return to Old Trafford?
I am right, i was right and until i'm wrong i'll continue to be right. I said Messi would win the ballon d'or this year ages ago, i maintained he was the best in the world when the majority laughed at the idea of it (people who had barely watched him no less) and now i get shit for from you for saying Messi 08/09 was better than Ronaldo 07/08.
How was he better? with a football on a football pitch playing football.
"He shat Ronaldo" out is just another in your long line of idiotic comments on this topic.
If it's not worth your time replying to then do us all a favour and don't bother replying.
Believe that i at least talk with a bit of honesty.
with that in mind i'm a bit of a prick
That's like saying Forlan became a top scorer in La Liga without being much of a goal scorer. To get assists you have to be creative. It shouldn't even be be debated
Besides, Ronaldo's assist were not just about good crossing ala Beckham like and our counter attacking style as you are implying. He also produced his fair share of killer passes.
Actually they are very different. They are have often been much more direct and counter attacking than the Catalans, who have always loved to hog possession much more..
I disagree that Ronaldo lacks it. However it just isn't a strength of his like it is for Kaka, Nor does it need to be since he is a wide man.
However possessing that pass doesn't make Kaka a play maker either. You are mixing a killer pass with play making. They don't go hand in hand. Even Gerard at Liverpool has this same pass. Scholes as younger player had it with out being the playmaker he is now. Same goes for Lampard. That pass is actually something most pure attacking midfielders have in their arsenal. The ability to run on to a ball at fullspeed just out side the area, approach the box, lose a marker or two and then slip in through that killer ball for a winger or center forward to finish off or holdup and lay off to him to score. Apart from goals from midfield it is their most important and potent weapon. But it doesn't make them play makers. Playmakers are totally different animals to players like Kaka. Turning a Kaka into one would restrict him more than anything.
I will honestly be very surprised if Kaka becomes more of a creative hub at REAL than he did at Milan or does for Brazil. I instead see him being their improved version of Lampard.
I see your point, we just have slightly different definitions as to what makes a play maker. I dont disagree with you, i'd just throw around the term more losely. YOu see the string puller as the playmaker and you are not wrong, the Xavi, Scholes, Pirlo type player who picks it up deep and starts off attacks.
Personally i think the players making things happen in the final 3rd, that link the midfield and attack are playmakers, the trequartista types. Baggio, Totti, Zidane, Platini, Rivaldo and i'd put Kaka into that bracket personally.
As for madrid they are more famous for good football than almost any team in the world. Yes recently they havent had that but as a club that can sack a manager who wins the title for not doing it in style i think it is safe to say that the club has an attacking football, posession, magic style at its heart.
even Ronaldo said he was joining Madrid for the style of play...
Bollocks. Since 06' Robinho's been better than him.
to be fair that is true Brwned, Kaka shat out the copa america but still with the reguvination of joining a new club he'll be the top man again.
Fair enough. I was actually thinking of the Rivaldo types too. They scored goals yes but they concentrated on creating things and were more of true forwards than Kaka. A player like Kaka doesn't really do that. He looks to score much more than he creates, spends more time carrying the ball forward from deep like a normal midfielder would and does a lot of give and go plays to link with team mates. Rather than hogging the ball himself and conducting moves like true trequartistas. That is why I don't class him as a playmaker but an attacking midfielder. Because he plays just like Lampard, but with mad ball skills. A type of player most save for Barcelona and Cheslea have been severely lacking.
I agree. I was just pointing out that they are usually more direct than the Catalans. Some times REAL will go long. I doubt Barcelona ever do it even on the counter if they can help it. Their counters are usually just speedier versions of their usual pattern of passing.
Always a pleasure when we actually agree, or almost agree.
I still think Kaka is a playmaker. I guess we'll see this season what role he has for Madrid.
I still think Kaka is a playmaker. I guess we'll see this season what role he has for Madrid.
AgreedAlways a pleasure when we actually agree, or almost agree.
I still think Kaka is a playmaker. I guess we'll see this season what role he has for Madrid.
2 months ago the excuse was Sir Alex only says Ronaldo is better because he's a United player.
Now, it's because Sir Alex loves him more than a son.
Essentially, you're just trying to come up with every excuse you possibly can to try to ignore Sir Alex's view (without upsetting all the United fans on here by calling him an idiot).
You were not right when you said Messi was the best player in the world any time before 08/09. Now he's had a great 08/09 seasons and I've not tried to deny he does deserve whatever rewards he gets this season.
I still maintain that Ronaldo 07/08 was better than Messi 08/09, he scored more, played against tougher opposition and won every accolade going, even the topscorer in both PL & CL.
You problem is you cannot respect (or even accept) that some people do not think the sun shines out of Messi's ass. Whilst I do not agree with you, I can accept you have an opinion on Messi v Ronaldo.
In the CL Messi was miles ahead in terms of productivity and performance. Less minutes, less shots, higher percentage of passing, dribbling, goals ratio, assists.... it goes on and on. But please continue to live in your Cal? bubble where Ronaldo hasnt been surpassed. Luckily there is only room for you or it would burst.
Fergie makes mistakes, he also says things he doesnt believe to the press all the time. SAF is a smart man, most of what he says is for a reason. Not everything he says is right and i'm sure you know as well as anyway that SAF is not always right and quite often says things he doesnt mean in press conferences. He also says things that arent true but basically everything he does say is to benifit United.
This time he is maintaining good relations with Ronaldo incase one day he gets the chance to bring him back to Old Trafford.
If that is his real opinion then he is wrong, he should listen to his good friend Lippi or any of the other highly respect figures in world football. Beckenbauer, Cryuff, Capello etc
You and your performance ratings, we haven't forgotten how Ronaldinho scored 2 goals at the Bernabeu yet you claim Messi was man of the match. You'll watch Messi through "Messi-tinted" glasses where he can do no wrong.
No doubt you thought he was the best player at Stamford Bridge against Chelsea too.
So your official excuse this time is that Sir Alex loves Ronaldo more than a son AND he's trying to maintain a good relationship with him in case he wants to come back.
Ever occured to you the likes of Capello & Lippi might have said what they said because they want to "maintain a good relationship" with Messi and leave the door open in case Barca ever sell him? No, in your little world, people only ever praise Ronaldo for secondary agenda, everyone who praise Messi do it from the bottom of their heart and can never be faulted?
You and your performance ratings, we haven't forgotten how Ronaldinho scored 2 goals at the Bernabeu yet you claim Messi was man of the match. You'll watch Messi through "Messi-tinted" glasses where he can do no wrong.
No doubt you thought he was the best player at Stamford Bridge against Chelsea too.
So your official excuse this time is that Sir Alex loves Ronaldo more than a son AND he's trying to maintain a good relationship with him in case he wants to come back.
Ever occured to you the likes of Capello & Lippi might have said what they said because they want to "maintain a good relationship" with Messi and leave the door open in case Barca ever sell him? No, in your little world, people only ever praise Ronaldo for secondary agenda, everyone who praise Messi do it from the bottom of their heart and can never be faulted?
Yeah everyone says Messi is the best because they want to keep good relations, despite Capello and Lippi both having ZERO chance of purchasing him, unless transfers between national sides is now permitted?
Fine, Fergie does think Ronaldo is the best. He hasnt and will never work with Messi. Everyone who has worked with Messi says he is the best, surprising? not really. I'm more interested in what impartial people say. Fergie saying Ronaldo is the best is no better than Mourinho saying Lampard or Zlatan is the best. He has relations with these players just like SAF has a fantastic relationship with Ronaldo. Ronaldo is "his boy" Ronaldo. Can't you see that?
It wasnt me who claimed Messi was motm, personally i cant remember that game. My over riding memory of the game at Stamford bridge was Messi getting a man sent off and constantly ripping assly cole and hitting the bar. What was he 18 at the time? it was phenomenal to watch.
You do realize that the world thought he was MOTM in that game,
from the BBC
So please continue to "ridicule" me for opinions shared by the rest of the world.
It's funny. Whenever people point out Ronaldo's goal tally, detractors are quick to say: "But how many of those were penalties and free kicks".
Well, I was watching that highlight clip of Messi's goals for last season, and quite a few were from penalties and free kicks. Funny how no one brings that up.
For me, Ronaldo's the better player. Less spectacular, but more of a threat. From set-pieces, from open play, in the air, a great athlete, and very physically imposing. The ideal of a modern footballer, where sheer athleticism meets skill.
Well, I was watching that highlight clip of Messi's goals for last season, and quite a few were from penalties and free kicks. Funny how no one brings that up.
For me, Ronaldo's the better player. Less spectacular, but more of a threat. From set-pieces, from open play, in the air, a great athlete, and very physically imposing. The ideal of a modern footballer, where sheer athleticism meets skill.
Ronaldo took all uniteds penalties and free kicks. Messi takes the odd free kick and half the penalties.
Also quite a few of messis goals from last season were strikes from outside the box, headers and also taken with his right foot. Which nobody seems to mention either.
When you look at shots on goal Messi hits a lot fewer, his goal to shot ratio puts Ronaldos to shame. The champions league final proved that, 2 shots 1 goal for Messi, Ronaldo had about 6? 7? 8? shots?
If he hits a million shots and isn't scoring regularly the madrid fans will jeer him.
Also quite a few of messis goals from last season were strikes from outside the box, headers and also taken with his right foot. Which nobody seems to mention either.
When you look at shots on goal Messi hits a lot fewer, his goal to shot ratio puts Ronaldos to shame. The champions league final proved that, 2 shots 1 goal for Messi, Ronaldo had about 6? 7? 8? shots?
If he hits a million shots and isn't scoring regularly the madrid fans will jeer him.
You want to be ridiculed though. Everytime Kaka takes his killer ball from his locker, there is bound to be a large scale murder spree.
So as a football fan you think a killer ball is something kept in a locker by a footballer which is taken out to go on large scale murder sprees?
interesting, i didnt think you had a clue but that pretty much cements it.
So as a football fan you think a killer ball is something kept in a locker by a footballer which is taken out to go on large scale murder sprees?
interesting, i didnt think you had a clue but that pretty much cements it.
Maybe so, but I'm not that far off from you though, am I? With your Messi shat on Ronaldo comments?
I wonder why people still try argue seriously with you though.
What do you think about Barry Ferguson to Birmingham? The prodigal son of Scotland will have one last hurrah this time?
Maybe so, but I'm not that far off from you though, am I? With your Messi shat on Ronaldo comments?
I wonder why people still try argue seriously with you though.
What do you think about Barry Ferguson to Birmingham? The prodigal son of Scotland will have one last hurrah this time?
actually it was "shat out" as in, swollowed him, then shat him out...
anyway, that was an intentionally rediculous comment and i know your comment was too
Yeah, after being proven correct on the subject time and again i dont understand why people want to go into it again. I do get some satisfaction out of constantly being proven right so i dont mind really
Barry Ferguson? he'll be piss, he's been piss for years.
Surely this thread deserves to rest in peace by now?
We've not learned anything new. It's just a bunch of people arguing over two players who are the best in the world, the difference between them is extremely minimal and even changes depending on who's on form.
I used to wonder if Frankly was the forum's resident footballing coach/expert because of his deceptive objectivity, but it's become clear to me that this thread is just him, and a load of United fans arguing over very subjective opinions. It's more a discussion of people's favourite player/idol.
Anyone who dismisses either player is a fool, because none of these two players "shits" on each other. Messi has tools in his locker that no one else in the world, including Ronaldo, has. The reverse is also true, Ronaldo is close to the perfect footballer and anyone who can't appreciate that these two are somewhat two sides of the same coin, then they may as well be demoted to the newbies.
We've not learned anything new. It's just a bunch of people arguing over two players who are the best in the world, the difference between them is extremely minimal and even changes depending on who's on form.
I used to wonder if Frankly was the forum's resident footballing coach/expert because of his deceptive objectivity, but it's become clear to me that this thread is just him, and a load of United fans arguing over very subjective opinions. It's more a discussion of people's favourite player/idol.
Anyone who dismisses either player is a fool, because none of these two players "shits" on each other. Messi has tools in his locker that no one else in the world, including Ronaldo, has. The reverse is also true, Ronaldo is close to the perfect footballer and anyone who can't appreciate that these two are somewhat two sides of the same coin, then they may as well be demoted to the newbies.
There are crazy FranklyVulgar haters in the Newbies. He'll be murdered by Kaka's killer ball if he ever goes there.
Damn it, i burst my own bubble. It just gets harder and harder to be objective as time goes by and the only reason i've stuck at it so long (not just being right) is i do feel quite strongly about it and i really think Messi is the once in a generation player for this generation.
I agree addis i do but i feel it'll be brought back anytime Messi or ROnaldo out do each other again. I promise it wont be me to bring it back however i can't promise to not get involved in the age old Ronaldo/Messi debate.
I've always found you make good points, informed and unbiased, i respect that.
Bring them on, after all to be hated on a football forum one must be doing something right
Bring them on, after all to be hated on a football forum one must be doing something right
Get yourself a demotion Vulgar.
You disappoint me. Instead of singing 'We're coming down the road' and praising Archie Gemmill, you are just a Messi fanboi
Get yourself a demotion Vulgar.
You disappoint me. Instead of singing 'We're coming down the road' and praising Archie Gemmill, you are just a Messi fanboi
A fan boy for saying Ferguson is pish?
ask any member of the tartan army, ask SAF
Our midfield is better off without him, Thomson in the holding role with Fletch and Brown in front. I love that midfield, best scotland midfield in about 20 years...
as for a demotion, it would be rather humorous although i quite like the idea of a bunch of pitch fork wielding Neanderthals trapped in the world of the newbie forum awaiting their release so they can run me out of town.
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