Agree to disagree I guess. I always felt that Messi was absolved all defensive responsibilities and able to move freely which meant other players picking up some of the slack. It worked because he's that good, but I do think he was afforded that leeway.
Lionel Messi | PSG Watch
- Thread starter Samid
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I see your point, though I disagree.
I’m not saying this to stick up for a player, or criticise another one, but top level longevity should not be used as a negative.
Scrolling up proves that not only is that untrue but that you repeatedly tried detailing the thread, just as you are here.
Stick to discussing Messi, because that's what the thread is about.
It was actually an insecure Messi fan who started this.
Many players are afforded that leeway if they're that good. But as much as you'd like to disagree, it was Messi being plugged to accommodate the team rather than the other way around.
Again, just because you say it, doesn't make it so.
I don't think it's a negative or that it should be used as one. I'm not sure it was being used as a negative either.
It would be crazy to suggest that Giggs playing 963 matches for United is a negative. The games played stat there was mentioned with the productivity to put it into context.
Works the other way around as well.
Again, you brought him up first and repeatedly referred to him despite me asking why he was a part of the conversation. It's all up there in black and white.
Finally, one thing we can agree on.
No.
And since I have just one post left. I'll address the other arguments you might reply with.
Guardiola and Tito dominated possession like no other, no surprise. Guardiola is a maniac and Tito was his disciple.
Moving unto Enrique, we have a barca that dominated possession in the way your regular top side would(Liverpool, Juventus , Real Etc) When MSN was assembled, this barca side actually was better in transition and Messi wasn't out of place, as we all know.
Under Valverde and Koeman, barca dominated position like a regular top side(once again). Only without the electric transitions that you would see under Enrique.
No one you would consider a goat candidate ever played in a team with less than 55% possession on average so don't be disingenuous @Bebestation. You can do better
It most certainly is. Now, we can drop it and stick to the topic, which is Messi.
Yeah they changed the way they played. I remember some suggesting that Messi would be "exposed" with the new transition style and instead he led them to the treble.
unbelievable that CR fans have the nerve to come here after his recent CL campaigns, while Madrid casually schooled the rest of the Europe without him. no point in locking that other thread if those same endless discussions were going to continue in this thread.
They were not ‘just legendary midfielders’ like Kroosor Modric - Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets helped both Barcelona and Spain play possession football like I have never seen any team play.
I remember the CL matches against them - it was useless watching the match because we simply didn’t have the ball.
It’s why I can’t act like playing for Barcelona during those years were like playing for any other team in their prime.
I just always felt that I would have played better football myself playing for Barcelona than teams like Arsenal, United, PSG, Juventus or anyone else.
Something felt different in the tempo and cohesive ability of Barcelona.
Now that you mention it, Ronaldo hasn't sniffed a CL without Vidic,Rio,Scholes,Giggs,Rooney,Marcelo,Benzema,Ramos,Bale, Modric and Kroos.
Maybe he needs proper teammates to win important stuff as well as Messi.
They are in a existential crisis mode after recent events, trying to distract attention from Ronaldo's circus
then they should to and add a few more Suuui’s in his thread thenTo play in that kind of setup is very difficult, for various reasons. This applies to all the positions, because the requirements are incredibly demanding. Your back line have to play very high up while retaining progression, the midfielders have to constantly recycle the ball and progress it while resisting the press, and the forwards have to operate in ridiculously confined spaces against entrenched lines. All this while also having to operate in complete tandem off the ball without exposing the side. There’s a reason it took a bunch of legendary players across various positions to have played like that, it’s almost impossible.
If you were a pro it’s highly likely that you would have found it far easier at one of the clubs you listed than at Barcelona, most players wouldn’t have been able to hack it. Look at Fabregas, a world class player at Arsenal but struggled to adapt to how intense the system was at Barcelona under Pep.
Fair enough. Could be my interpretation.
I read it as “player x has only scored 900 goals because he’s played 800 games, so if player y had played 150 more games he would have scored more”.
Of I were a neutral I wouldn't mind seeing him play for our rivals in his pomp, again because of PL bias. I think it means more to us to see someone like Messi tear up pl clubs rather than la liga clubs.
Agreed and I don't for a second doubt he would have done just that. The man is an absolute genius and a joy to watch.
Jesus, 1 day later and the insecure CR7 cultists are still here trying to derail the thread. You wasting your friday night and weekend here will not automatically make CR7 a better player than Messi, and recent history shows that he runs away from challenges (Juve and United) as well. It is what it is, get over it and get on with your lives
You really are going to stay a newbie forever.
Oh you will be surprised, in the old vs thread, one of those cultists actually said Valverde is a better manager than 1st chelsea/ Real Madrid’s Mourinho. Just imagine how strong the copium dose was
But exactly - legendary players were able to do something that even players like Fabregas couldn’t do.
Im not saying I would have the ability to play instead of xavi, iniesta and busquets - I’m saying I would have played better with those players providing a footballing basic than players like Fabregas or Pirlo, kroos or Scholes.
Players like Pedro to Zlatan to to Villa to Messi all did well in front of those 3 even on average seasons from footballers - seeing Pedro in Chelsea was a whole different player. A whole different set up, never mind a whole different league.
If that doesn't encapsulate them well, I don't know what does
Anyways, here's hoping Messi breaks Alves' trophies record within the next year. Going tobe delectable watching the meltdowns
Once again, it's not just me "thinking" VVD deserved it. It was the closest Ballon dor vote in history. So clearly many professionals and people invovled in the game think the same. Imagine yourself talking to accredited journalists and managers this way, and you'll see how silly it sounds. I never said robbed either, Ive always maintained it was close but it's the Messi fanboys that insist anyone other than Messi that year is 'ridiculous' and try to shut down any debate as if it wasn't even close. It absolutely was.
Also, if you want a more fair and balanced indicator of the best player every year, without the politics and bias. check out the UEFA POTY:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Men's_Player_of_the_Year_Award
Messi hasn't been the best player in the world since 2015.
Imagine watching football and one of the greatest ever and saying "Im going to make it my life's ambition to hate on him for the rest of my sad life".
Find a new sport chaps.
Find a new sport chaps.
Again, just because you say that Argentina NT was out of Messi's comfort zone doesn't make it true. He grew up with it. It was very much his comfort zone. Nice try though.
Such a weird argument as if so-called comfort zone is guaranteed to bring trophies and it is something to hold against Totti, Maldini, Pele, Del Piero etc. who all played for a single team.
I am gonna explain it with a very simple example that you can understand using your favorite player.
What would happen if Ronaldo stayed in his comfort zone in United after SAF? oh yeah, the comfort zone would be no longer comfortable, after SAF right? Where would he be trophies wise if he stayed in his comfort zone at United all these years
?Messi played with tons of mediocre managers, players under different systems and still managed to win major awards.. He stayed after Guardiola and continued to play in both good & bad times at Barca, didn't jump ship when the comfort zone became increasingly uncomfortable..
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It's an internet forum. There are some brilliant newbies and some awful veterans. And vice versa. It's a pretty lame thing to try to hang over someone though.
According to Messi his lungs got knocked out by covid last season. Of course he can't be the player he was, the miles on the clock are insane, but I'm sure he'll have an excellent season at those slightly lowered levels. It's a massive year for him, possibly his last serious tilt at the CL, definitely his last serious tilt at WC.
Hanging someone? Not sure what you mean. I just think that poster is absolutely dreadful, I'm not hanging anyone.
Barcelona has never finished outside top 2 until recently. And have always gone deep in the CL.
I know, right? Amadinho Diallo haters really are crazy
What are you blabbering about? Messi is unlike Maldini, del piero, Totti etc because he's played for more than one team. It's just that he was good at one and not the other.Such a weird argument as if so-called comfort zone is guaranteed to bring trophies and it is something to hold against Totti, Maldini, Pele, Del Piero etc. who all played for a single team.
I am gonna explain it with a very simple example that you can understand using your favorite player.
What would happen if Ronaldo stayed in his comfort zone in United after SAF? oh yeah, the comfort zone would be no longer comfortable, after SAF right? Where would he be trophies wise if he stayed in his comfort zone at United all these years
Messi played with tons of mediocre managers, players under different systems and still managed to win major awards.. He stayed after Guardiola and continued to play in both good & bad times at Barca, didn't jump ship when the comfort zone became increasingly uncomfortable..
Not sure why we're taking Ronaldo in the Messi thread again but I'll bite: he's not my favorite player. I think he's one of the best to do it, like Messi, but beyond that I have no feelings about him and wouldn't be sad to see him leave.
As regards the bolded, United was never ronaldo's endgame...he always wanted Madrid, so why would he have stayed?
Messi is the complete opposite.. In 3 years between 2019-2021 & without Xavi, Neymar, Iniesta under Valverde & Koeman, he won 2 Ballon D'ors, 1 Golden Shoe, 1 CL top goal scorer, 3 Pichichis, 1 IFFHS World's best playmaker in a row (& ranked no.2 twice), 2 times La Liga most assists in 3 years etc.
Imagine Ronaldo winning similar awards without SAF at United in his "comfort zone" staying after SAF at United, zero chance, maybe a top PL goal scorer award here and there..
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I think you may be being a little dramatic with the 'life's ambition' bit, champ.
What are you talking about? Even before Messi's move, some of you would still bring this comfort zone BS.. As if Pele, Maldini, Totti and the rest care..
The example shows that a comfort zone at the same team might become very uncomfortable after key departures (see United after SAF), and the challenge becomes staying in your "comfort zone" rather than leaving, it is not static. United before/after SAF shows that.
What's your opinion of Messi as a player?
You know there's more to a comfort zone than personnel at a club, right? I worked at a company for the best part of a decade...in that time management changed, colleagues came and went etc. Didn't change the fact that I knew the company inside out and thus was absolutely in my comfort zone.