No, sorry, but great as he was Messi was not the thing that made that barca side great. A contributing factor, sure, but not the only thing. Domestically he's never shown he can do it outside a structure that's built for him.
Lionel Messi | PSG Watch
- Thread starter Samid
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I love how your point fell apart and you had to change your argument to "domestically"
And still got that wrong.
Not sure how my point fell apart? Barcelona was set up around him for years. He moves to PSG and looks awful. Coincidence?I love how your point fell apart and you had to change your argument to "domestically"
And still got that wrong.
There's never been a successful team that has one "thing". All great players demand that their teams are built around them.
They weren't. Not moreso than your boy who couldn't accomplish what Messi did.
Argentina weren't built around him and he just led them to Copa America while winning player of the tournament.
I agree with this, to an extent. But few clubs are or were built around a single player to the extent Barcelona were built around Messi.
Madrid were built around Ronaldo more than Barcelona were built around Messi and so were United.
Tons have been.
I think you're mistaking "few players are as influential and brilliant for a single team as Messi for Barcelona" for whatever else suits your preference. If a player is good at that many things he's going to be more influential in more phases of play in football games than ones who are more specific in their skillset (so let's say Lewandowski at Bayern just as a random example).
Who's my boy? I'm no Ronaldo superfan...I think the two are the best I've ever seen and couldn't separate them, for different reasons.
Argenta were absolutely set up to try to get the best out of Messi. Unsurprising as he's their best player but to claim otherwise is dim. Also, it's more fuel to the 'can't do it outside his comfort zone' fire, given he's been in the setup since 17 or whatever. Again, the only time he's gone outside of his comfort zone he's failed.
It's convenient to ignore the sacrifices made by the likes of Rooney and Benzema of course.
Complete and utter nonsense. Barcelona's dependence on Messi ran much deeper than just at team level. The club was set up around him while he was there. You're a fantasist.
Of course he's their best player. But it doesn't mean that they were built around him to the same extend that Madrid were built around Ronaldo.
Playing with the boatload of mediocre managers doesn't consist of playing in his comfort zone. Yet he won consistently. Argentina last summer certainly wasn't in his comfort zone, and yet he led them to Copa America.
Who's ignoring it?! I'm also confused as to why Ronaldo keeps getting brought into this? Unless I'm confused, I didn't mention him...
You can keep repeating yourself as much as you like. It isn't going to make your posts any less inane.
Barcelona were not built around Messi anywhere near as much as Madrid were built around Ronaldo with everyone else in the squad needing to cover for him and the donkey work.
Yet Messi was just much more dominant because he's that good of a player.
He's 35 FFS
Your point would have some validity had he gone to say Juve and City at age 28 and 30 respectively and struggled. At age 35, shit happens. Besides, he did score a lot in the CL, general play was quite good as usual etc. Unless you focus only on goals or something to prove someone succeeded or failed.
That's the key word. They weren't molly coddling him. He was that good that they got lazy and thought he'd do everything. It's his brilliance and the club's mismanagement that allowed it.
He was playing in a side he'd been at since a teenager. A side whose style of play he grew up with. Alongside some of the best players in the world. It was absolutely playing in his comfort zone.
You mentioned that fee teams are built around a player the way Barca was. Madrid is an example of a team that was built around a player more than Barca was.
It's a shame their best player still couldn't do it, the way Messi did.
I'm still confused as to why we're talking about Ronaldo here?
Are you under the impression that Barcelona had the same players and managers over the years that he played there?
Already answered this. Not sure why you're still confused.
Not just the team...the club. We'll agree to disagree on the latter point, I suppose.
Nailed it. Watch him tie himself in knots now engaging in mental gymnastics to criticise the other guy.
No, what gives you that impression?Are you under the impression that Barcelona had the same players and managers over the years that he played there?
Yes because as long as it's the same name on the badge, the rest has no bearing and he's in his comfort zone. Jesus wept.
Again, why are we talking about Ronaldo?! I totally agree he had water carriers.
Again, you're repeating yourself. You mentioned that few teams were built around someone the way Barcelona were built around Messi and got that wrong. The blatant example is Ronaldo.
You then repeatedly ask why Ronaldo is being mentioned.
Do I really have to simplify this?
You're not the brightest, are you?! It's his comfort zone as it's a club and structure and style of football that he quite literally grew up with. Sure, the managers changed and the personnel around him (though he still played with brilliant players for the majority of his career) but the infrastructure etc remained the same. So yes, comfort zone.
See here come the insults. That's when I know you're up in your feelings.
The hierarchy and the executives at s club have nothing to do with the team he's playing with.
He certainly wasn't in his comfort zone at Argentina and yet just led them to Copa America while winning POTT.
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Who said anything about the hierarchy and executives? I said infrastructure, which is far more than personnel. Are you saying that Messi wasn't comfortable at Barcelona?
Again, who cares? It has no bearing on the team someone is playing with. And it's not close to as important as personnel.
Messi was no more comfortable at Barcelona or at Argentina as the other guy invoked as an example. Yet accomplished more.
Since you're weirdly intent on bringing Ronaldo into the argument (you seem curiously obsessed with him across threads actually) I'll address it. Are you seriously trying to argue that Messi was no more comfortable at a club he was at since his early teens, where he's absolutely idolized, than Ronaldo at a club with notoriously fickle fans that once upon a time booed him?!
Also, to the bolded, you know there is more to 'comfort zone' than the players you play with, right? Imagine you're in a job for a decade...the staff can change around you but your own position and familiarity with the company doesn't change as a result. What's so tough to grasp about that?
Nothing weird about it. You asked for an example and you got one.
You're free to keep repeating yourself as many times as you like but it's the same point. It's up to you to try to formulate a cogent argument rather than repeating yourself as if that's going to lend it any more credence.
Playing with Argentina wasn't playing in his comfort zone. He just won Copa America as top scorer.
The bit about poor Ronaldo playing for "fickle fans who will boo him" constituting playing out of his comfort zone is so laughable that I had to chuckle.
Just stating that an argument isn't cogent, doesn't make it so, fyi. Please explain what's laughable about that? Madrid fans did boo him. Was Messi ever booed by Barça fans? I don't see how that's irrelevant when discussing how comfortable one is at a club....
As for Argentina, again, it's a national setup he's been around since his teens. It's familiar and absolutely his comfort zone. How do you not grasp that?
Loyalty is comfort zones now. Also again, it was only towards the end of his Barca career he had rational reasons to leave. I've never heard this argument brought up about any player apart from Messi by Ronaldo fans and I doubt Messi cares at all about what Ronaldo fans thinks he should do with his career or should have done.
The two aren't mutually exclusive. I'm not knocking his decision not to leave - in his situation, why would he?! - but to deny he was playing within his comfort zone is crazy to me.
Nice theory, but wrong, as usual. Xavi famously told La Masía graduates that Barcelona fans only cheered him because he was as good as he was. If he had a bad game, they would flip on him.
Since you mentioned Ronaldo, he got booed because the fans didn't appreciate him perambulating around. Messi didn't get to the point that he was booed because he was as good as he was.
Moreover, how mentally weak must a player be if we have to blame "fickle fans" on the reason he couldn't accomplish what his rival did?
Being Argentinian and playing for their youth team doesn't mean the team is built around him or that it's in his comfort zone. Yet he accomplished what he did with him. Out of his comfort zone. Something the other guy couldn't.
Claiming that he was more in his comfort zone than the other guy you mentioned in your previous post is crazy to almost everybody else.
I've gone out of my way to leave him out...you're the one that keeps bringing him up! You know you can't compare Barça fans to the white handkerchief brigade where supporting their players are concerned, so don't try.Again, just because you say that Argentina NT was out of Messi's comfort zone doesn't make it true. He grew up with it. It was very much his comfort zone. Nice try though.
He was called the mute midget in La Mazia. It wasn't all rosy. Of course once he became a first team player he was idolised because he was mint. Also there has always been far greater expectations on Messi than there has been on Ronaldo because Messi has simply been seen as the greater player and had Maradonna's heir tag on him very early in his career.
Again, just because you say that Argentina NT was out of Messi's comfort zone doesn't make it true. He grew up with it. It was very much his comfort zone. Nice try though.
You clearly haven't if you keep harping on about how poor Ronaldo got booed by United and Madrid fans and that means Ronaldo wasn't in his comfort zone
Messi didn't because he was simply better. As Xavi said, if Messi struggled he would have been booed.
Just because you say that Messi was in his comfort zone in Argentina, it doesn't make it true. He was booed by Argentina fans (funny how that doesn't work in your favor now). He wasnt considered one of their own.