Lionel Messi | PSG Watch

[Gehrman]

Do you think Messi is done? Its seems he is no longer motivated to play any domestic football (who could blame him? he is 35 soon, and had won more than anyone at that level). It seems he just want the handsome pay cheque, the CL football, and of course WC next year... those are the only things left on his mind. With that, could even see him going for retirement after end of next season. I mean, surely its painful for us to watch him spend another few years scoring only very few goals in a farmers league. Don't you all think GOAT should retire in a more honourable way?

he's definitely declined massively, but I'd like to see him get a consistent run of games injury free to see whether he can at least revert to his 2021 Barcelona form. However I'm absolutely sure he'll retire from european football at 36 when his PSG contract ends. Perhaps even after the WC depending on how it goes. I can remember Messi saying that Zidane made a good decision on retiring on a high. I think if Argentina wins the WC he will. If not I think he'll see out his contract and with Mpabbe gone I think he'll be a bit of a headache at his age.

 

[romufc]

I don't think you know much about Tuchel's time at PSG.

And saying Klopp isn't methodical is completely crazy. Of course he is. Heavy metal football doesn't mean it isn't structured, it just sounds more intriguing than "high press, counter press and transitioning". Klopp adapted various elements of possession football in his system, his pressing is highly methodical and organized and so are his attacking patterns. Claiming the opposite to that is saying more about your understanding of modern systems than about Klopp himself.

Tuchel did not have a particular system at PSG, he played "attacking" brand in the league but when it came to CL it was negative.

Also, so Klopp can have a system that works because its organised yet, SAF was not a system?

 

[cyberman]

Of course you disagree because you can't be objective regarding anything United related. But SAF's football was never even close to being as structured, orchestrated and streamlined as the one played by Guardiola or Klopp teams. SAF was great for different reasons in a different era but couldn't keep up once he was confronted with the next step in tactical development.
Its complete nonsense.



I don't think you know much about Tuchel's time at PSG.

And saying Klopp isn't methodical is completely crazy. Of course he is. Heavy metal football doesn't mean it isn't structured, it just sounds more intriguing than "high press, counter press and transitioning". Klopp adapted various elements of possession football in his system, his pressing is highly methodical and organized and so are his attacking patterns. Claiming the opposite to that is saying more about your understanding of modern systems than about Klopp himself.

Utds football from 08 resembled Klopps present side to a stupid degree. Just because it happened years ago doesn’t mean it automatically becomes out of date.
Wining a CL these days doesn’t make you an all time great coach. With the resources and lack of depth outside of the elite clubs the argument could be made it’s easier to go far these days on squad quality alone. What is Klopp doing now that’s different from Sir Alex? Apart from being widely less successful? Utd had the revolving front 3. The width from fullback. Goals from wide and a front man dropping deep in midfield as they have those days.
it’s alright saying this but you have to have meaning behind it. Less adaptive, pragmatic coaches were left behind but Sir Alex was none of those. It makes no sense Claiming a manager who spent his career adapting at the high level with whatever modern tactics were applied at the time would suddenly fail now in a league where Ole finished second last season.
Edit never mind Scholes and Carrick passing it out from the back And progressing it forward. No offence but some of your takes are honestly horrible

 

[Zehner]

Tuchel did not have a particular system at PSG, he played "attacking" brand in the league but when it came to CL it was negative.

Also, so Klopp can have a system that works because its organised yet, SAF was not a system?

Of course Tuchel had a particular system at PSG. And of course the hypothetical idea a manager has of how to play football can be watered down if he has to make adjustments to fit superstar players in. But he still had a clear approach of how to play football and that wasn't negative by any means in the UCL. That impression is probably coined by PSG's matches against Bayern and City wo were even better than them in possession. Still PSG dominated the ball almost at will against United and to a lesser extent against Liverpool under Tuchel.

Systems are basically concepts of how you want to play football. Klopp is highly idealistic, having a clear vision of how he wants his team to play, which spaces which player shall oppcupy in which phase of play, which areas of the pitch players should occupy in the build up, the runs they shall make in the attack and so forth. That's proactivitiy. The classic "tactical" manager like Mourinho is reactive. Like SAF they were pragmatic managers, at times adapting their style from game to game. The modern coaches generally stay true to their systems, primarily making little tactical adjustments to formations and patterns of play based on the opponent (e. g. Tuchel training on pitches shaped like an hour glass if the opponent is strong at pressing the flanks).

If you can't see that the modern generation is far more idealistic and obsessed with details then I can't help you. Ferguson's football was much more improvised and less designed up until the last detail than that of Klopp, Tuchel or Pep. In general, Ferguson was more of a manager than a coach which also sets him apart from guys like Sarri or Michels who were also very idealistic but still not as obsessed with details. That has much to do with the new opportunities provided to coaches due to performance diagnostics, medical advancements, bigger stuff, digitization, statistics, highly advanced scouting and so forth.

 

[Zehner]

Utds football from 08 resembled Klopps present side to a stupid degree. Just because it happened years ago doesn’t mean it automatically becomes out of date.
Wining a CL these days doesn’t make you an all time great coach. With the resources and lack of depth outside of the elite clubs the argument could be made it’s easier to go far these days on squad quality alone. What is Klopp doing now that’s different from Sir Alex? Apart from being widely less successful? Utd had the revolving front 3. The width from fullback. Goals from wide and a front man dropping deep in midfield as they have those days.
it’s alright saying this but you have to have meaning behind it. Less adaptive, pragmatic coaches were left behind but Sir Alex was none of those. It makes no sense Claiming a manager who spent his career adapting at the high level with whatever modern tactics were applied at the time would suddenly fail now in a league where Ole finished second last season.
Edit never mind Scholes and Carrick passing it out from the back And progressing it forward. No offence but some of your takes are honestly horrible

There are countless things they do completely different but as a start, let's just say pressing. This stylistic device was pretty much non-existant in SAFs days. Here's for example an article from 2012 about the fact that English teams simply don't press: https://spielverlagerung.de/2012/12/05/die-probleme-der-premier-league-pressing/

It really is a difference of night and day between the two.

 

[Pickle85]

So with that logic Ronaldo isn’t part of the dysfunction at United? They’ve gotten much worse this season compared to last.

Who's talking about Ronaldo here?! And yes, any player playing in a dysfunctional team is by definition a part of the dysfunction

 

[Gehrman]

Who's talking about Ronaldo here?! And yes, any player playing in a dysfunctional team is by definition a part of the dysfunction

Every Messi or Ronaldo thread turns into a passive agressive Messi vs Ronaldo thread.

 

[SportingCP96]

I’d argue psg are just as dysfunctional as United. And Messi is still toe to toe with Ronaldo in ucl stats this year although Messi has been poor domestically

If you put Ronaldo in PSG and Messi in United how much better or worse do you think their stats would be because I think I know the answer.

 

[Daysleeper]

If he were playing for a similar team to that Barça Prime Messi would be scoring many goals anywhere.

This PSG side is different.



I'm not sure he would, it depends on the PSG side. Whether they are playing for him or not. Icardi scored 20 + goals in Serie A many times and he can't replicate that for this PSG side.

Not talking about Ronaldo in the PL... Still too early, I would agree that Serie A is a more competitive league than Ligue 1 and that Ronaldo's 2018/19 and 2019/20 seasons are far better than what Messi seems to be producing now. But there is no guarantee that Ronaldo would have scored as much for Paris as he did for Juventus.


Serie A is a high-scoring league, while the french Ligue 1 is a very defensive and physical championship.


This figure is from 2020, and Ligue 1 is opening up more and more, but I don't think that applies to PSG:s games. Teams will sit deep against them.

@SportingCP96 I don’t think Ronaldo would tear up Ligue 1, but I do think Messi would fare better in the PL than ligue 1 right now although it’s obvious Messi has been way off this season. Ligue 1 is one of the most defensive leagues in the world, bit If you switched Messi and Ronaldo i don’t think it would move the needle much for psg. Both united and PSG’s issues come from the midfield

 

[Gehrman]

@SportingCP96 I don’t think Ronaldo would tear up Ligue 1, but I do think Messi would fare better in the PL than ligue 1 right now although it’s obvious Messi has been way off this season. Ligue 1 is one of the most defensive leagues in the world, bit If you switched Messi and Ronaldo i don’t think it would move the needle much for psg. Both united and PSG’s issues come from the midfield

Old Messi and Old Ronaldo play completely different roles for starters. Old Ronnie has had a better season though despite lamenting how average he's been.

 

[TenonTen]

No hate. In my honest opinion, Ronaldo and Messi have reached that stage where they are a bit of a burden to their clubs in certain ways.

You cannot bench them, massive egos and demands, huge wages, they'll never track back or press consistently and their output has declined.

No doubt they're still world class. But somehow the overall package seems a bit hindering.

Sure the shirt sales and eyeballs are good, as are the moments of magic but at what cost?

This is probably gonna ruffle a few feathers but if I am a DOF/manager in 2022 building a squad I'd honestly not have these type of players in my current squad at all. I'd much rather enjoy them from far away.

You can still use them effectively for short tournaments, one off knockout games but for an entire club season it's a bit of a headache for the coach.

Don't kill me for saying this.

 

[Daysleeper]

Old Messi and Old Ronaldo play completely different roles for starters. Old Ronnie has had a better season though despite lamenting how average he's been.

No arguments there

 

[MrEleson]

No hate. In my honest opinion, Ronaldo and Messi have reached that stage where they are a bit of a burden to their clubs in certain ways.

You cannot bench them, massive egos and demands, huge wages, they'll never track back or press consistently and their output has declined.

No doubt they're still world class. But somehow the overall package seems a bit hindering.

Sure the shirt sales and eyeballs are good, as are the moments of magic but at what cost?

This is probably gonna ruffle a few feathers but if I am a DOF/manager in 2022 building a squad I'd honestly not have these type of players in my current squad at all. I'd much rather enjoy them from far away.

You can still use them effectively for short tournaments, one off knockout games but for an entire club season it's a bit of a headache for the coach.

Don't kill me for saying this.

This is a good take tbh. And should start being common knowledge by now.

 

[Gehrman]

What excatly is Messi's position and role at PSG? Asking people who can watch every PSG match. It seems he starts upfront either central or wide or as a 10. Watching the highlights though he seems to play too deep if he's supposed to provide the final ball or score a goal.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Actually hurts and annoys me seeing him play so bad. I think the major decline is that he's not as aware of his surroundings like before. He also seems to try too hard to dribble when he can just pass the ball. Although he seemed like the old Messi before he got injured so maybe it's a case of lack of consistent game time also

 

[locixxx]

What excatly is Messi's position and role at PSG? Asking people who can watch every PSG match. It seems he starts upfront either central or wide or as a 10. Watching the highlights though he seems to play too deep if he's supposed to provide the final ball or score a goal.

He is supposed to run but cant be arsed

 

[Bebestation]

@SportingCP96 I don’t think Ronaldo would tear up Ligue 1, but I do think Messi would fare better in the PL than ligue 1 right now although it’s obvious Messi has been way off this season. Ligue 1 is one of the most defensive leagues in the world, bit If you switched Messi and Ronaldo i don’t think it would move the needle much for psg. Both united and PSG’s issues come from the midfield

The only way that would be true is if Messi played for Guardiola again.

 

[JPRouve]

He is supposed to run but cant be arsed

Why would he be supposed to run now when he hasn't for the past 10+ years?

 

[Gehrman]

Why would he be supposed to run now when he hasn't for the past 10+ years?

Because it would make him a better player? Especially in terms of off the ball movement.

 

[JPRouve]

Because it would make him a better player? Especially in terms of off the ball movement.

Messi off ball movement is perfectly fine and has always been perfectly fine. But beside that, who are these players that are more athletic at 34 years old than they were at 24?

 

[Gehrman]

Messi off ball movement is perfectly fine and has always been perfectly fine. But beside that, who are these players that are more athletic at 34 years old than they were at 24?

None obviously. But I watched his City away leg and he really needed to run more in that game to make an impact.

 

[cyberman]

He is supposed to run but cant be arsed

He once ran only 1 mile more than Atletico keeper during a defeat a few years back.

 

[tenpoless]

Fear of failure

 

[weetee]

Well it looks on field like what it mostly was: pure PR stunt.

Even prime Messi would eventually look like a fool in a prime Liverpool team but the 34yo Messi could look god-like I‘d say in the current ManCity team.

It also shows IMO that Poch doesn‘t really has a clue how to set up his team to play out most of their strengths. He‘d need to be rather practical and adapting.

Imo it also shows that Neymar is missing dearly as he was the guy (alongside Verratti) in setting up their game and one would imagine that he and Messi + Verratti could potentially link up quite nicely with some time. But one can almost bet that once Neymar is fit again marco will ger injured etc.pp.

 

[genardk]

Messi hit the post again after a free-kick yesterday, that makes it a total of 9 this season, this is really crazy..

 

[Sayros]

Messi hit the post again after a free-kick yesterday, that makes it a total of 9 this season, this is really crazy..

He had a really good game today, and is starting to exert more and more influence. They have a chance against Real Madrid, I just don't know if the Neymar situation is going to come into play where they're going to look to bring him back before the first game, which could really affect the little bit of chemistry this team has started to build. It was good to see Hakimi back as well, Poch needs to figure out how to use him better because he was on fire at the start of the season, and then got some instructions that made him completely passive on offense with a much higher focus on staying back and defending up until now, but last night was much better and closer to what we expect to see with him. He is ridiculously fast.

 

[Lord SInister]

Messi hit the post again after a free-kick yesterday, that makes it a total of 9 this season, this is really crazy..

Messi hitting the post is a norm, almost feels like deliberate. I think if people dug out stats, he has probably the most number of posts hits.

 

[genardk]

Messi hitting the post is a norm, almost feels like deliberate. I think if people dug out stats, he has probably the most number of posts hits.

Yeah, but, unfortunately, they stand out now due to him having 2 goals in Ligue 1. In the past it would be easy to ignore. Now, you just can't stop thinking what if he could score half of these Regardless, I am glad he is getting better before Real games..

 

[genardk]

He had a really good game today, and is starting to exert more and more influence. They have a chance against Real Madrid, I just don't know if the Neymar situation is going to come into play where they're going to look to bring him back before the first game, which could really affect the little bit of chemistry this team has started to build. It was good to see Hakimi back as well, Poch needs to figure out how to use him better because he was on fire at the start of the season, and then got some instructions that made him completely passive on offense with a much higher focus on staying back and defending up until now, but last night was much better and closer to what we expect to see with him. He is ridiculously fast.

That's my main concern as well. I think PSG will be better off without Neymar against Real.
Real fans seem to think this tie is 50/50 giving me hope as PSG has been unimpressive so far until this last game against Lille.

 

[Gehrman]

He finally got a goal again.

 

[Red the Bear]

They'll beat Madrid but after that it's anyone's guess as i don't think they're part of the top 3 teams in the tournament( that goes to city , pool and bayern)

 

[Gehrman]

They'll beat Madrid but after that it's anyone's guess as i don't think they're part of the top 3 teams in the tournament( that goes to city , pool and bayern)

Not sure, they've been struggling this season. Yeah I know they are top of the table, but they havn't been dominating games. A strong well drilled team can beat them. If they play Neymar-Mpabbe-Messi they will get overrun in midfield.

 

[antk]

Yesterday definitely was Messi's best game for Paris, regardless of stats (1G + 1A). Seems like the chemistry is really building up with Mbappé and Verratti. Having Di Maria on the right for the first half offered some unpredictability in his game that vanished when Draxler came on (because he's mostly a waste of space in this team).

 

[Red the Bear]

Not sure, they've been struggling this season. Yeah I know they are top of the table, but they havn't been dominating games. A strong well drilled team can beat them. If they play Neymar-Mpabbe-Messi they will get overrun in midfield.

I've heard that benzema will at the very least miss the first leg so that's a huge blow to their chances right there, real have hit a rough patch and la liga isn't what it used to be anymore so I'm pretty certain that the sheer individual quality is enough to overbear them.

But yeah they be fools to start all three at the same time so unless they kill the game in the first leg they be wiser to not try such things.

 

[Gehrman]

I've heard that benzene will at the very least miss the first leg so that's a huge blow to their chances right there, real have hit a rough patch and la liga isn't what it used to be anymore so I'm pretty certain that the sheer individual quality is enough to overbear them.

But yeah they be fools to start all three at the same time so unless they kill the game in the first leg they be wiser to not try such things.

Benzema?

 

[JPRouve]

Benzema?

You have no business asking that question. Mpabbe...

 

[Tincanalley]

There are countless things they do completely different but as a start, let's just say pressing. This stylistic device was pretty much non-existant in SAFs days. Here's for example an article from 2012 about the fact that English teams simply don't press: https://spielverlagerung.de/2012/12/05/die-probleme-der-premier-league-pressing/

It really is a difference of night and day between the two.

Playing out from the back: like role of keeper, wing backs. Ball to feet, movement? Anyone who thinks SAF United has even the slightest resemblance to Klopp’s style… well.

 

[Gehrman]

You have no business asking that question. Mpabbe...

True

 

[Red the Bear]

Benzema?

Yeah , auto correct is a bitch. I fixed it.

 

[Zehner]

Playing out from the back: like role of keeper, wing backs. Ball to feet, movement? Anyone who thinks SAF United has even the slightest resemblance to Klopp’s style… well.

I'm not really sure what you're implying to be honest but the things you named are very basic stuff that says almost nothing about the style of play. It's like saying a Tesla is similar to a Mustang because both have four wheels.