Lionel Messi | PSG Watch

[romufc]

The PL is definitely stronger now, but I think the difference back then might have been overstated. But I also think there have been an inherent PL bias if you support a PL team. Scoring a hattrick against any PL team outside the top 6 is kind of considered more impressive than getting a hattrick vs Sevilla. During the Messi/Ronaldo years it seemed like only scoring in classico seemed to count or against athletico madrid and I think it's a bit silly. Unfortunately the bottom teams in the the PL couldn't duke it out against the bottom teams in La liga. We only saw what happened in the CL and EL.

There will be Bias for every team agreed.

What Ronaldo and Messi were doing for those years was ridiculous, scoring in the classico or CL just highlighted how good they were as players. I don't think anyone will say that era Real and Barca were the best teams in Europe.

We are at the similar stage with Liverpool and City right now though, I think those 2 teams are on a different level to the others.

 

[Gehrman]

There will be Bias for every team agreed.

What Ronaldo and Messi were doing for those years was ridiculous, scoring in the classico or CL just highlighted how good they were as players. I don't think anyone will say that era Real and Barca were the best teams in Europe.

We are at the similar stage with Liverpool and City right now though, I think those 2 teams are on a different level to the others.

I think perhaps part of it was that Barca and Real Madrid had squads of such high quality that they were expected to steamroll every other team in La liga. And Messi and Ronaldo to bag a hattrick against them which they also managed to be fair. Liverpool and City don't have a Messi or Ronaldo in their squad but they can still dominate most games.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

Failed to win their own league though. Didn't even get close.

Didn't they win 1 under Conte and 1 under
Jose?

 

[giorno]

If he can stay clear of corvid and injury the rest of the season. He will be doing far better than he has shown thus far. In spite of Pochetino's poor set up thus far

Cuervicius and Benzuraca

 

[Gehrman]

Didn't they win 1 under Conte and 1 under
Jose?

Not when they won the CL. Personally I don't think you can be considered the strongest team in europe if you fail to win your league or not even get close. When Liverpool last won the CL they were like 1 point away from winning the league, so in that scenario I think it's fair to call them the strongest in that season.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Barca, Real, Bayern are elite football clubs, I agree and I also agree that Real and Barca are like the pinnacle of football for footballers. That does not mean the league is superior.
Its like saying because Bayern are such a good team, the Bundesliga is superior? they only have 1 team.

This is just not a very good comparison.

Atletico Madrid played two CL finals and lost them both to Real Madrid. They won 2 ELs last decade. Sevilla has won multiple EL titles. Villareal won it last year. Bilbao played an EL final. La Liga has delivered internationally, there are no ifs or buts to it. The Bundesliga has exactly 1 'EL or CL finals' appearance that isn't Bayern in the last decade, no comparison whatsoever.

The PL has done a little better at having more champions of the CL. But for better or worse the CL is won almost exclusively by ultra-wealthy teams. So this mostly means 'the PL has more teams owned by wealthy people', which we all knew already.

 

[Bebestation]

For me if the Europe super league forms then these Madrid, Bayern and Barcelona clubs won't be as consistent.

As Rangnick said that the bottom of the PL is not the level of other bottom leagues (not exactly the right words).

Playing 38 games against them whilst arguably having the closest bunch of top clubs in City, Chelsea, Liverpool, United, Arsenal, Tottenham, Leicester and now possibly adding Newcastle to the mix is just insanity. Then they have to go to to the CL and the PL clubs have had a tougher season than other leagues.

It may be bullshit to some people but I guess the fact that an Inter Milan Manager is now managing Tottenham shows some proof. The chosen ex United manager is managing West ham. The Everton manager is bossing it with Real Madrid.

 

[Dancfc]

Different in coaching. Fergie had multiple different squads of guys and had to adjust and change throughout his career.

Couldn't the same be said for Messi in the end?

The last few years the great player's he played with were either gone or declined yet he was still dragging (as has shown this season) painfully average Barca sides into the title race.

I remember as far back as 2018 we were by actually the better side over two legs yet still lost the tie by 3 goals because Messi decided to, well, Messi.

In many ways it was not too dissimilar to the way Fergie was still keeping a slowly eroding United side at the top.

 

[romufc]

The PL has done a little better at having more champions of the CL. But for better or worse the CL is won almost exclusively by ultra-wealthy teams. So this mostly means 'the PL has more teams owned by wealthy people', which we all knew already.

Wealthy owners = higher wages = better players = better competition

 

[Gehrman]

Wealthy owners = higher wages = better players = better competition

Didn't stop us from being knocked out by Sevilla under Mourinho and losing the EL under Ole. However I dont doubt that eventually the money in the PL will mean that the CL will become more and dominated by PL clubs.

 

[Gehrman]

For me if the Europe super league forms then these Madrid, Bayern and Barcelona clubs won't be as consistent.

As Rangnick said that the bottom of the PL is not the level of other bottom leagues (not exactly the right words).

Playing 38 games against them whilst arguably having the closest bunch of top clubs in City, Chelsea, Liverpool, United, Arsenal, Tottenham, Leicester and now possibly adding Newcastle to the mix is just insanity. Then they have to go to to the CL and the PL clubs have had a tougher season than other leagues.

It may be bullshit to some people but I guess the fact that an Inter Milan Manager is now managing Tottenham shows some proof. The chosen ex United manager is managing West ham. The Everton manager is bossing it with Real Madrid.

The PL now is definitely stronger. But I don't think it was much if at all stronger during the Messi/Ronaldo years. Ancelotti is like known for his legendary CL wins with big clubs not for his everton stint. Moyes should never have been a united a manager in the 1st place and did a terrible job.

 

[romufc]

Didn't stop us from being knocked out by Sevilla under Mourinho and losing the EL under Ole. However I dont doubt that eventually the money in the PL will mean that the CL will become more and dominated by PL clubs.

People need to realise that a team beating another in a one off game does not represent the leagues superiority.

Barca getting beat in the CL Benfica does not mean the Portugese league is better.

 

[Gehrman]

People need to realise that a team beating another in a one off game does not represent the leagues superiority.

Barca getting beat in the CL Benfica does not mean the Portugese league is better.

Yeah that's true.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Wealthy owners = higher wages = better players = better competition

cars = dogs = biscuits

 

[Zehner]

Wealthy owners = higher wages = better players = better competition

Is that the reason United did so well over the last 10 years or so? Being wealthier than most other clubs?

 

[romufc]

Is that the reason United did so well over the last 10 years or so? Being wealthier than most other clubs?

Read it again.

 

[Zehner]

Read it again.

The issue is, you can't purchase good decision making. Money and quality surely is correlated but not in a 1:1 ratio. The EPL was always the richest league but also painfully outdated tactically (but of course to arrogant to even recognize it for many, many years). Let's be real, La Liga completely wiped the floor with British teams for the best part of this century.

 

[romufc]

The issue is, you can't purchase good decision making. Money and quality surely is correlated but not in a 1:1 ratio. The EPL was always the richest league but also painfully outdated tactically (but of course to arrogant to even recognize it for many, many years). Let's be real, La Liga completely wiped the floor with British teams for the best part of this century.

Yep, the PL has outdated tactics.

Put a pole out to footballing people, top 10 managers in the world.

Pep, Klopp, Tuchel, Conte will all be in there... where are they managing? La liga?

La Liga was really good because of 2 clubs, since Messi declined and Ronaldo left, look whats happened?

I did not say money = success, I said it means more competition.

The PL struggled from 2012-2017 but before that the English teams were in the CL semis year almost every year. Look at now, since 2018, its been pretty much PL dominance.

 

[Daysleeper]

While Messi will always be in the conversation for GOAT, it would be a serious negative against him if he flopped in France and went back to Barca. Especially since his direct rival is performing better, for a more dysfunctional team in a much stronger league.

I’d argue psg are just as dysfunctional as United. And Messi is still toe to toe with Ronaldo in ucl stats this year although Messi has been poor domestically

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Yep, the PL has outdated tactics. Put a pole out to footballing people, top 10 managers in the world.
Pep, Klopp, Tuchel, Conte will all be in there... where are they managing? La liga?

Klopp managed in Germany for many years. Guardiola managed for three, and managed in La Liga beforehand. I don't understand what point you are trying to make here.

La Liga was really good because of 2 clubs, since Messi declined and Ronaldo left, look whats happened?

Do you think Guardiola and Klopp are going to stay at Liverpool and City forever? Are they robots?

 

[romufc]

Klopp managed in Germany for many years. Guardiola managed for three, and managed in La Liga beforehand. I don't understand what point you are trying to make here.

The point that PL has outdated tactics but yet has probably the top 5 managers in Europe.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

The fact that you have to import foreign managers in order to have good tactics is one of the limitations of the PL, yes.

What will happen is that, once again, the best managers will develop elsewhere. Then they will dominate Europe for "a few years" (5-10) and then eventually move to the PL, where they'll get three good results and you'll puff your chest and say "WE ARE BACK, BOYS"

 

[Zehner]

Yep, the PL has outdated tactics.

Put a pole out to footballing people, top 10 managers in the world.

Pep, Klopp, Tuchel, Conte will all be in there... where are they managing? La liga?

La Liga was really good because of 2 clubs, since Messi declined and Ronaldo left, look whats happened?

I did not say money = success, I said it means more competition.

The PL struggled from 2012-2017 but before that the English teams were in the CL semis year almost every year. Look at now, since 2018, its been pretty much PL dominance.

So we agree that the EPL was outdated before those guys joined their current clubs? Great. Then we just disagree on when the whol "being outdated tactically" thing started. I'd say around 2007.

 

[Zehner]

The fact that you have to import foreign managers in order to have good tactics is one of the limitations of the PL, yes.

What will happen is that, once again, the best managers will develop elsewhere. Then they will dominate Europe for "a few years" (5-10) and then eventually move to the PL, where they'll get three good results and you'll puff your chest and say "WE ARE BACK, BOYS"

Football's coming home lads

 

[romufc]

So we agree that the EPL was outdated before those guys joined their current clubs? Great. Then we just disagree on when the whol "being outdated tactically" thing started. I'd say around 2007.

As in, I am not going to deny that. European football had better technicians and tacticians. Alot of English clubs outside of the top 4 hired English managers who played 4-4-2 big man up top football.

Jose, Rafa, Carlo were managers that were alot tactical before Pep, Klopp and the like turned up in the PL.

 

[Pickle85]

The fact that you have to import foreign managers in order to have good tactics is one of the limitations of the PL, yes.

What will happen is that, once again, the best managers will develop elsewhere. Then they will dominate Europe for "a few years" (5-10) and then eventually move to the PL, where they'll get three good results and you'll puff your chest and say "WE ARE BACK, BOYS"

How is cherry picking the best managers from around the world a limitation of the PL? Surely having the pull to attract all of the top coaches is a strength?

 

[Zehner]

As in, I am not going to deny that. European football had better technicians and tacticians. Alot of English clubs outside of the top 4 hired English managers who played 4-4-2 big man up top football.

Jose, Rafa, Carlo were managers that were alot tactical before Pep, Klopp and the like turned up in the PL.

Opportunistic managers with tactics but no systems. Klopp, Guardiola, Tuchel, etc. follow a much more wholistic approach to coaching and systems than Mourinho, Benitez and Ancelotti or even Ferguson for that matter. The new generation is much more methodical and controlling.

 

[Daysleeper]

This thread rules

 

[cyberman]

Opportunistic managers with tactics but no systems. Klopp, Guardiola, Tuchel, etc. follow a much more wholistic approach to coaching and systems than Mourinho, Benitez and Ancelotti or even Ferguson for that matter. The new generation is much more methodical and controlling.

I disagree with this. SAF last great team in 08 would be right at home today in elite competition. SAF would have adapted just as he had always done.
I honestly think todays coaching is worse from top to bottom. There are no plan Bs anymore while lower teams just play a lesser version of football that sides play so it’s less of a challenge to counter.

 

[romufc]

Opportunistic managers with tactics but no systems. Klopp, Guardiola, Tuchel, etc. follow a much more wholistic approach to coaching and systems than Mourinho, Benitez and Ancelotti or even Ferguson for that matter. The new generation is much more methodical and controlling.

I disagree because Tuchel did not have such systems at PSG. It was very similar to how United play, it was 10 behind the ball and counter attack, during his reign.

Klopp and Guardiola have completely different systems, Klopp is not methodical, its literally heavy metal football.

 

[mu4c_20le]

I’d argue psg are just as dysfunctional as United. And Messi is still toe to toe with Ronaldo in ucl stats this year although Messi has been poor domestically

Of course. Everyone knows continental football = real football. And international football only mattered after last year...

 

[Daysleeper]

Of course. Everyone knows continental football = real football. And international football only mattered after last year...

PSG are very dysfunctional and Messi has had been good in CL, not sure what you’re arguing

 

[Zehner]

I disagree with this. SAF last great team in 08 would be right at home today in elite competition. SAF would have adapted just as he had always done.
I honestly think todays coaching is worse from top to bottom. There are no plan Bs anymore while lower teams just play a lesser version of football that sides play so it’s less of a challenge to counter.

Of course you disagree because you can't be objective regarding anything United related. But SAF's football was never even close to being as structured, orchestrated and streamlined as the one played by Guardiola or Klopp teams. SAF was great for different reasons in a different era but couldn't keep up once he was confronted with the next step in tactical development.

I disagree because Tuchel did not have such systems at PSG. It was very similar to how United play, it was 10 behind the ball and counter attack, during his reign.

Klopp and Guardiola have completely different systems, Klopp is not methodical, its literally heavy metal football.

I don't think you know much about Tuchel's time at PSG.

And saying Klopp isn't methodical is completely crazy. Of course he is. Heavy metal football doesn't mean it isn't structured, it just sounds more intriguing than "high press, counter press and transitioning". Klopp adapted various elements of possession football in his system, his pressing is highly methodical and organized and so are his attacking patterns. Claiming the opposite to that is saying more about your understanding of modern systems than about Klopp himself.

 

[Pickle85]

PSG are very dysfunctional and Messi has had been good in CL, not sure what you’re arguing

Messi is part of PSG though and ergo part of the dysfunction.

 

[TenonTen]

How much of a chance does Messi realistically have at the World Cup with Argentina? This must be his final shot and he'll definitely preserve himself to be fresh in Qatar.

Just hope all the big players make it to the World Cup!!

I’d argue psg are just as dysfunctional as United. And Messi is still toe to toe with Ronaldo in ucl stats this year although Messi has been poor domestically

The thing is that even that "dysfunctional" PSG have the luxury of being 11 points clear in their league. Not to mention Messi himself is a huge part of that "dysfunction".

CL knockouts will ultimately be the make or break for Messi, deciding whether he failed or succeeded in this transfer. No excuses there.

Although I can already see Messi fans scapegoating Pochettino after PSG get knocked out and blaming it all on him for not getting the best out of their idol.

 

[Daysleeper]

Messi is part of PSG though and ergo part of the dysfunction.

So with that logic Ronaldo isn’t part of the dysfunction at United? They’ve gotten much worse this season compared to last.

 

[Daysleeper]

How much of a chance does Messi realistically have at the World Cup with Argentina? This must be his final shot and he'll definitely preserve himself to be fresh in Qatar.




The thing is that even that "dysfunctional" PSG have the luxury of being 11 points clear in their league.

CL knockouts will ultimately be the make or break for Messi, deciding whether he failed or succeeded in this transfer. No excuses there.

Although I can already see Messi fans scapegoating Pochettino after PSG get knocked out and blaming it all on him for not getting the best out of their idol.

Poch has been crap but that doesn’t excuse Messi’s poor domestic form. PSG will get knocked out by Real most likely but I agree that for them it’s CL or bust

 

[Rojow]

While Messi will always be in the conversation for GOAT, it would be a serious negative against him if he flopped in France and went back to Barca. Especially since his direct rival is performing better, for a more dysfunctional team in a much stronger league.

Jordan flopped at Wizards. No one cares. Only the most hardcore NBA fans.

Messi's journey at PSG is far from over. If he plays good matches againts Madrid opinions will change again.

 

[Gehrman]

How much of a chance does Messi realistically have at the World Cup with Argentina? This must be his final shot and he'll definitely preserve himself to be fresh in Qatar.

Just hope all the big players make it to the World Cup!!



The thing is that even that "dysfunctional" PSG have the luxury of being 11 points clear in their league. Not to mention Messi himself is a huge part of that "dysfunction".

CL knockouts will ultimately be the make or break for Messi, deciding whether he failed or succeeded in this transfer. No excuses there.

Although I can already see Messi fans scapegoating Pochettino after PSG get knocked out and blaming it all on him for not getting the best out of their idol.

Part of PSG being dysfunctional is that they are often struggling to beat the teams in their league, it's often late winners and stuff. Poch lost the league last year. They should always be walking it. I agree its all about the CL, always have been for PSG after they got rich. Considering their performances this year, I don't consider them favourites vs Madrid. 50/50 at best. It shouldn't be, but it is.

Don't think Argentina have much of a chance tbh. Ship has sailed.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Do you think Messi is done? Its seems he is no longer motivated to play any domestic football (who could blame him? he is 35 soon, and had won more than anyone at that level). It seems he just want the handsome pay cheque, the CL football, and of course WC next year... those are the only things left on his mind. With that, could even see him going for retirement after end of next season. I mean, surely its painful for us to watch him spend another few years scoring only very few goals in a farmers league. Don't you all think GOAT should retire in a more honourable way?