if anything we can see how boneheaded of a move it was for Ronaldo to leave Madrid. Hasn’t done anything to truly bolster his legacy since then. Not that he’s bad since he left Real Madrid but for all the talk of returning to United for a challenge he’s on level for goals with Dennis Smith. If he stayed at Madrid he would’ve had another CL.
Lionel Messi | PSG Watch
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if anything we can see how boneheaded of a move it was for Ronaldo to leave Madrid. Hasn’t done anything to truly bolster his legacy since then. Not that he’s bad since he left Real Madrid but for all the talk of returning to United for a challenge he’s on level for goals with Dennis Smith. If he stayed at Madrid he would’ve had another CL.
He should have moved to a lesser club in the pl or man utd post fergie also well knowing barca would never sell.
He left Madrid because Perez wouldnt give him a payraise after they won the 3 peat. Which is fair enough.
That's too much speculation. Bayern were back and Liverpool, City, PSG were all building strong teams. He won his last CL thanks to Bayern not having Neuer available and thanks to the rules of offside not applying to 2 of Madrid goals. Real barely managed to beat Juventus in the previous round. There was a strong argument that Juventus was going to be at least as competitive as Madird.
And if he were not going to win anymore CL:s it was a smart move to try and win the league in a third country.
I generally agree with the notion he would’ve won at least another CL. In the season immediately after his departure, Real were eliminated by an Ajax side they could’ve defeated with CR in the side. They missed countless opportunities in the return leg before the eventual Ajax onslaught. With CR in the side, they take those chances and the outcome of the tie is completely different. Then they face Juve/Atletico in the QFs (two teams they’ve perpetually had the upper hand against in the competition); then Spurs in the semis and an eventual Liverpool in the final.
They more than plausibly could’ve won it that year with Ronaldo in the side.
Even last season, they would’ve fared better against Chelsea in the semis with CR7.
I agree with a lot of those points. And of course hindsight is 20/20. But winning the league with a team that had won the previous 8 league titles doesn’t mean much. Messi is going to win the French league in a season that PSG didn’t even win it the year before. But understandably, no one will care.
Challenging for the league with United would be amazing, but they’ve gone several steps backwards this season.
They should have paid him but seeing as how they’ll be getting Mbappe I think Ronaldo needed Real much more than Real needed Ronaldo. Benzema has been playing out of his mind since Ronaldo left, but I understand Ronaldo feeling jilted that he wasn’t getting paid enough.
I do agree he should do stayed in Madrid but my point is he produces in any team and any league.
Not that Messi would be mad or England or wherever Because he is brilliant of course but outside of Barca he’s just a bit different… still very good but just not AS good. He’s very much fine tuned for a specific play style that not many other teams offer and when that is the case his level drops as shown in argentina for years and now at PSG grandes his PSG form has honestly even surprised me.
"a few years" meaning 7 titles won in a 10 year period.
I don't think people will consider these 2 of the same value. More than half of the previous 7(it was 7 before CR7) were highly contested, Napoli gathered 91 points (to Juve's 95) in the season prior to Ronaldo's arrival. PSG not winning the league in 20/21 was a huge failure and a massive achievement by Lille, that's why nobody will care when things are set right this year.
Juventus competes with teams that have 10 to 25 % lower Market value and operate on a reasonable budget. Juventus is not as rich as PSG while its competitors (Inter and Napoli) are richer than Lyon, and Marseille.
Financially speaking Bologna & Sassuolo, the 9th and 10th clubs in Italy are closer to Juventus than Monaco and Lyon are to Paris. That's how superior PSG is. PSG is as rich as City competing with clubs that are poorer than Southampton.
Juventus did make it a round further and lost to Ajax 3-2 on aggregate because of countless injuries.
This is still too much speculation, If CR7 had bailed Real against Ajax they would have kept Solari. If Juventus hadn't spent 120M on CR7 they'd have bought Milinkovic Savic and they'd have beaten Real Madrid in that 1/4 final since Solari would be way out of his depth. Or maybe Juventus would have ended the group stage second behind United (or third behind both United and Valencia) and the draw would have changed dramatically. Real could have drawn Liverpool in the R of 16...
And Sevilla dominated Europa as well
I don't think people will consider these 2 of the same value. More than half of the previous 7(it was 7 before CR7) were highly contested, Napoli gathered 91 points (to Juve's 95) in the season prior to Ronaldo's arrival. PSG not winning the league in 20/21 was a huge failure and a massive achievement by Lille, that's why nobody will care when things are set right this year.
Juventus competes with teams that have 10 to 25 % lower Market value and operate on a reasonable budget. Juventus is not as rich as PSG while its competitors (Inter and Napoli) are richer than Lyon, and Marseille.
Financially speaking Bologna & Sassuolo, the 9th and 10th clubs in Italy are closer to Juventus than Monaco and Lyon are to Paris. That's how superior PSG is. PSG is as rich as City competing with clubs that are poorer than Southampton.
Wonderful post but the reality is Juve had been the league 8 times in a row. No matter the circumstances, people are just going to shrug if you win the league with a team that was dominating said league prior to your arrival. Which isn’t to say Ronaldo didn’t contribute to Juventus winning the league after he joined, but domestic titles in other leagues for teams that were dominating anyway in this day and age just won’t mean as much. For leagues where one team runs rampant for so long, in the world’s eyes it’s CL or bust unfortunately.
And the only CL won by English clubs in that 10 years period was Chelsea's unbelievable Di Matteo robbery.
But, sure, Messi should have downgraded to the superior EPL to prove his worth.
There's a reason why that Barca is one of the greatest sides ever, that's because Messi was in it. It is laughable and kind of desperate to suggest that his stats against PL teams does not count. Van Basten's stats at AC Milan should not count too, right, because he was playing at one of the best teams ever. Also, Ronaldo's stats should not count as well since he was playing for Real with the likes of Kroos, Modric, Benzema, Marcelo, Casemiro etc. and it was Ramos and Bale saving him in the CL finals year in year out.. or his stats should not matter at United as well since he was playing for SAF at an amazing United team and SAF & United could win things with or without Ronaldo anyway. Or Pele's WC performance should not count because he played for probably the most dominant NT teams ever.
As for Ronaldo in different leagues argument, that’s not really proving yourself in a different league by adjusting yourself to a new league. As you can see in this forum and elsewhere, nobody other than a few Ronaldo fans really buy that argument. Ronaldo at United was a completely different player compared to his last 6 years at Real, then at Juve and now at United. His transformation cannot be called customizing or adjusting, it is compromising, compromising on his creativity, dribbling etc. abilities to maximize his goal scoring stats by being a poacher as he is unable to do all these things at once unlike Messi bar his United years and early time at Real to an extent (even at his peak, he was nowhere near Messi in terms of playmaking or dribbling skills). That alone shows he does not really belong the top tier that Pele, Maradona and Messi belong to and why his name is not mentioned alongside Pele and Maradona unlike Messi. That to most is "a big needle mover" in the debate and explains why he is behind Messi in a poll even in a United forum.. He gradually transformed from one of the most exciting players ever into a kind of boring, technically limited player as the years pass, probably the worst player in terms of creativity, technique compared to the likes of Cruyff, Maradona, Messi, Zidane, Platini, Xavi etc. Therefore, as I said, nobody other than Ronaldo fans seem to buy this kind of desperate "him doing it in other leagues" argument as they see how limited he became on the pitch and how obsessed he is with stat padding even now at 37 to stay in the conversation.
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La Liga teams won 23 out of 27 knock-out ties against PL rivals between 2008-2018 (counting Real-Liverpool final in 2018, it becomes 24 tie wins out of 28), sounds complete La Liga superiority & domination to me. Only in the last couple of years, with the weakening of La Liga, PL teams began dominating the CL.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...ockout-ties-against-La-Liga-counterparts.html
PL has been tbh overrated probably due to global marketing etc. Between 2000-2018, Spanish teams won 9 CL titles, Italians 3, Germans 3, English teams 3, and Portuguese 1. Bayern alone has the same number of titles as all PL teams combined. As for Europa League, 2nd tier PL teams always lost to 2nd tier teams from other countries. Even top PL teams like United, Liverpool lost to their 2nd tier Spanish rivals like Villareal, Sevilla in the EL finals. In the last 20 years, Spanish teams won 10-11 EL titles (almost all 2nd tier Spanish teams) and PL teams just three, and these are all top PL teams such as Chelsea and United.
Moving from Barca or Real to PL would be a huge downgrade for any top La Liga player at that period including Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Marcelo, Benzema, Griezmann etc. in terms of prestige, perception, lifestyle. You seem to ignore the fact that that Barca team was arguably one of the best ever because of Messi.
Also, PL cannot come close to La Liga in terms of attracting top talent. Even today, a declining La Liga is still a more attractive proposition to the top talent such as Haaland or Mbappe than the PL.. Hard to beat living in a place like Madrid, Barcelona or Milan especially for Latin stars.
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This was beyond silly of a post. I’ll keep it too a simple response.
He became so “limited” he won three CL in a row while being “limited” and in that same time period a Euro.
He cleaned house in Spain, England, and Italy (besides CL in Italy but over 100 goals and many records). Multiple styles of play and coaches and succeeded same with Portugal.
The point about Messi”record” against the big 6 “not counting “ I mean that in the sense he played on the best team in the world. Had he been on a different team playing in the EPL what would the record be.
The fact is this. We have only seen Messi outside of Barca for Argentina (where he was clearly not the same period as Barca for years despite having a very good team compared to the crap Ronaldo had) and with PSG which lackluster would be the nice way to describe his performances. Now imagine in a more difficult league like England. That’s the point.
Ronaldo would not have won another CL had he stayed at RM imo, i think it was pretty clear during the 17/18 season that the team wasn't elite anymore, and tbh we fluked it against Bayern to arrive at the final.
Was a mistake to leave anyway, i think, but team was getting old anyway and would still have been schooled by the top sides we faced.
If someone points out RM looks good now? We look decent, but i expect our aging midfield to be exposed against top opposition yet again this season in CL, much like they were last season.
Was a mistake to leave anyway, i think, but team was getting old anyway and would still have been schooled by the top sides we faced.
If someone points out RM looks good now? We look decent, but i expect our aging midfield to be exposed against top opposition yet again this season in CL, much like they were last season.
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How do you fancy your chances against PSG in a couple of weeks?
The same basis puts Pep, Jose and even Ancelotti above Fergie.
The greatest is the greatest whether he's played in one league or ten.
I would repeat that that Barca was one of the best in the world because of Messi and also that La Liga was the best league during that period. One can also ask questions such as "I wonder how Ronaldo would perform without SAF at United with other stars / Modric-Kroos-Benzema at Real" etc. You also seem to struggle to understand that La Liga top players do not care about PL, it is not their dream to go to Manchester or Liverpool to prove themselves to Ronaldo fans
They are playing for Real and Barca, the best teams in the world (in that period) in the best league in the world. It is Ronaldo fans' own standard measure to ask such silly things like Messi did not play in PL against PL teams, so that does not count which is absurd. Xavi, Iniesta also only played for that Barca as well, so should we discount their performances against PL teams, too?Messi with Argentina won multiple MVP awards at Copa, WC, Olympics, U-20 WC, basically whichever tournament he competed in, he won the best player award since he was like 18, what else do you want him to do at the NT level to be satisfied? Do you hold Ronaldo to the same standards? How do you view the fact that Ronaldo could not win even a single best player award in an international tournament (4 WCs + 5 Euros) something that Forlan with Uruguay, Zagorakis with Greece, Schmeichel with Denmark, Modric with Croatia were able to do? Also, how do you explain that trash Portugal team managed to beat France in the EC finals without Ronaldo?
I used "limited" in the areas of creativity, technique, dribbling etc. He definitely became a more prolific goal scorer due to transforming into a striker/poacher, what's surprising about that? Ronaldo before that transformation was a more creative, versatile player while winning less. He basically failed to replicate his playing style at United at other teams such as Real (with the exception of the first couple of years) or Juve. It might be hard for Ronaldo fans to understand, but most non-Ronaldo fans would find his United version his best version not the poacher version which is a stats machine. Imagine Maradona/Messi becoming a poacher to maximize their goal scoring stats, most Maradona/Messi fans would not appreciate that. Both at Real and Juve, the whole team was designed to feed Ronaldo a the expense of other strikers such as Benzema, Dybala etc. meaning he would get a few chances every game anyway, he did not have any responsibility to run the game, create chances, dribble past players etc. This is not the case for Messi at PSG.
50/50
I would repeat that that Barca was one of the best in the world because of Messi and also that La Liga was the best league during that period. One can also ask questions such as "I wonder how Ronaldo would perform without SAF at United with other stars / Modric-Kroos at Real" etc. You also seem to struggle to understand that La Liga top players do not care about PL, it is not their dream to go to Manchester or Liverpool to prove themselves to Ronaldo fans
Messi with Argentina also won multiple MVPs at Copa, WC, Olympics, U-20 WC, basically whichever tournament he competed in, he won the best player award since he was like 18, what else do you want him to do at the NT level to be satisfied? Do you hold Ronaldo to the same standards? How do you view the fact that Ronaldo could not win even a single best player award in an international tournament (4 WCs + 5 Euros) something that Forlan with Uruguay, Zagorakis with Greece, Schmeichel with Denmark, Modric with Croatia were able to do? Also, how do you explain that trash Portugal team managed to beat France in the EC finals without Ronaldo?
I used "limited" in the areas of creativity, technique, dribbling etc. He definitely became a more prolific goal scorer due to transforming into a striker/poacher, what's surprising about that? Ronaldo before that transformation was a more creative, versatile player while winning less. He basically failed to replicate his playing style at United at other teams such as Real (with the exception of the first couple of years) or Juve. It might be hard for Ronaldo fans to understand, but most non-Ronaldo fans would find his United version his best version not the poacher version which is a stats machine. Imagine Maradona/Messi becoming a poacher to maximize their goal scoring stats, most Maradona/Messi fans would not appreciate that. Both at Real and Juve, the whole team was designed to feed Ronaldo a the expense of other strikers such as Benzema, Dybala etc. meaning he would get a few chances every game anyway, he did not have any responsibility to run the game, create chances, dribble past players etc.
No, most people don't.
Ronaldo 2010-2014 was the most complete version, not the one at United.
Your point about Ronaldo being feed chances at the expense of others is nonsense btw, take a look at how many goals Real Madrid scored, not Benzema in isolation, Real Madrid, in the following seasons.
Looks like there are a lot of goals that just aren't there anymore, how convenient!
I would view this as evidence that "winning best player in an international tournament" is not a meaningful metric of player quality, since we all know Ronaldo is better than any of these people.
Different in coaching. Fergie had multiple different squads of guys and had to adjust and change throughout his career.
Or that he was unable to step up unlike even those "inferior" names in the big tournaments. I gave those names as they have played for teams that are not stronger or weaker than Portugal, so definitely achievable. Every single player in the GOAT conversation has a best player award (R9, Messi, Maradona, Zidane, Cruyff, Pele) in an international tournament, the only exception is Ronaldo.
Yes, or that. Or another thing. When you have a small sample size you can just claim anything, it won't be particularly well-supported.
Messi of course was important but let me remind you that the greatest club side of all time (That Barca team) also co insided with the greatest national team (Spain) coincidence? Not quite. The core of that Barcelona team was that Spain national team that won 3 major trophies back to back back….without Messi….I would repeat that that Barca was one of the best in the world because of Messi and also that La Liga was the best league during that period. One can also ask questions such as "I wonder how Ronaldo would perform without SAF at United with other stars / Modric-Kroos-Benzema at Real" etc. You also seem to struggle to understand that La Liga top players do not care about PL, it is not their dream to go to Manchester or Liverpool to prove themselves to Ronaldo fans
Messi with Argentina won multiple MVP awards at Copa, WC, Olympics, U-20 WC, basically whichever tournament he competed in, he won the best player award since he was like 18, what else do you want him to do at the NT level to be satisfied? Do you hold Ronaldo to the same standards? How do you view the fact that Ronaldo could not win even a single best player award in an international tournament (4 WCs + 5 Euros) something that Forlan with Uruguay, Zagorakis with Greece, Schmeichel with Denmark, Modric with Croatia were able to do? Also, how do you explain that trash Portugal team managed to beat France in the EC finals without Ronaldo?
I used "limited" in the areas of creativity, technique, dribbling etc. He definitely became a more prolific goal scorer due to transforming into a striker/poacher, what's surprising about that? Ronaldo before that transformation was a more creative, versatile player while winning less. He basically failed to replicate his playing style at United at other teams such as Real (with the exception of the first couple of years) or Juve. It might be hard for Ronaldo fans to understand, but most non-Ronaldo fans would find his United version his best version not the poacher version which is a stats machine. Imagine Maradona/Messi becoming a poacher to maximize their goal scoring stats, most Maradona/Messi fans would not appreciate that. Both at Real and Juve, the whole team was designed to feed Ronaldo a the expense of other strikers such as Benzema, Dybala etc. meaning he would get a few chances every game anyway, he did not have any responsibility to run the game, create chances, dribble past players etc. This is not the case for Messi at PSG.
In that same time period for Argentina Messi…didn’t win.
Once again coincidence? Nope.
Portugal would not make it to the that Euro Finals without Ronaldo. I’ll even give you more before Ronaldo Portugal barely qualified to a major tournament. Check how many times after he began to play…that’s the kind of impact he has also while smashing all the records he has internationally. All this while playing with an absolute garbage NT squad for a majority of his career.
Ffs…why does every messi or Ronaldo watch thread turn into a messi v ronaldo best player of all time argument thread
While Messi will always be in the conversation for GOAT, it would be a serious negative against him if he flopped in France and went back to Barca. Especially since his direct rival is performing better, for a more dysfunctional team in a much stronger league.
I can't think of anything more boring. It puts me off engaging in any sort of conversation about either, which is sad when they're the two best players in my lifetime.
They should both be admired and celebrated equally for their talent and achievements. I fail to understand why there's this need that people have to pick one side and immediately hate the other, as if they've entered a personal war of their own making.
It’s quite annoying that whenever one plays bad the others go in with pure glee
for goodness sake they’re both in the twilights of their career, it’s only going to get worse.
Completely agree, we should love them both as football fans instead of constantly arguing about them.
Is there not a way of literally banning any mention of Ronaldo in here?
I don’t understand the obsession of trying to compare them. Twelve years ago it might have been a novel discussion. But now? Don’t people have better things to spend their time doing?
I don’t understand the obsession of trying to compare them. Twelve years ago it might have been a novel discussion. But now? Don’t people have better things to spend their time doing?
Sorry, but, Ronaldo also played with the creme de la creme. That these players were not playing in the same NT does not mean that they are inferior to Spanish players at Barca. Other than players like Casillas, Ramos, Xabi Alonso playing for Spain, also think about Modric (2018 WC finalist), Kroos (WC 2014 winner), Marcelo (probably one of the best LBs ever), Benzema, Varane, Casemiro, Pepe (the best Portuguese player in EC 2016), etc. not to mention the United team with Giggs, Scholes, Tevez, Rooney, Keane, Rio, Vidic etc.
Portugal has had an amazing team since the end of 1990s with players such as Figo, Rui Costa, Joao Pinto etc. They already played a SF in EC 2000 and final in EC 2004 and another SF in EC 2006.. Also it helped to any nation that the number of spots at Euros were increased from 8 to 16 in 1996, and to 24 in 2016.
Messi could win the WC with a bit of luck in the final and Spain might lose if Robben did not miss a sitter, so does not really show that Messi failed as football is 11-man team sport and luck always plays a role in tournaments.
Also, I find it very unfair to the rest of the Portuguese team to call them "absolute garbage" to elevate Ronaldo as that team was strong enough to beat France without him and bring him the EC title.
Anyway, that's my last post on this thread about Messi vs Ronaldo.
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He probably just wasnt the best performer at an international tournament.
Well there is a thread for it. Every thread with either of them tends to escalate into that very same thread.
Barca, Real, Bayern are elite football clubs, I agree and I also agree that Real and Barca are like the pinnacle of football for footballers. That does not mean the league is superior.
If you play for any other than Barca or Real, its a big step up going to the PL, look at the coaches. Carlo was at Everton because the PL has the pool. Its not just marketing, the PL has one of the most competitive leagues.
Its like saying because Bayern are such a good team, the Bundesliga is superior? they only have 1 team.
The PL is definitely stronger now, but I think the difference back then might have been overstated. But I also think there have been an inherent PL bias if you support a PL team. Scoring a hattrick against any PL team outside the top 6 is kind of considered more impressive than getting a hattrick vs Sevilla. During the Messi/Ronaldo years it seemed like only scoring in classico seemed to count or against athletico madrid and I think it's a bit silly. Unfortunately the bottom teams in the the PL couldn't duke it out against the bottom teams in La liga. We only saw what happened in the CL and EL.
Since 11/12 Chelsea have won twice as many CLs as Barca have.
just thought I’d put that out there between your arbitrary goal post setting.
Failed to win their own league though. Didn't even get close.