Lionel Messi | PSG Watch

[genardk]

Messi wasn't the best in 2014 WC. As several have stated he had players on his own team who performed better as well as players on opposing teams. Keylor Navas earned himself a move to Real Madrid and later PSG due to this World Cup. That's looking at performance rather than name.

Algeria had some great talent up front. Soudani, Slimani and Feghouli kept a 23 yr old Mahrez on the bench. Rais M'Bolhi in goal played out of his skin.

This is not even about Messi, this is pure football politics. Man of the Match of the final should have been Schweinsteiger (or Mascherano if Argentina had won). Instead it went to Götze, a late substitute who played 30-odd minutes out of the 120, because he scored the winning goal deep into extra time. In 1970 Pelé was awarded player of the tournament. But many believed Jairzinho who scored in every knockout game and finished top scorer of the tournament deserved it more. Alas, when a kid reads in the history books he will only know Messi as the winner.

It is what it is, those who saw it know. Ribéry went incredibly bitter in 2013 when he was robbed, Lewandowski responded with grace in 2020/2021 and was rewarded with the entire worlds sympathies.

Without Messi, Argentina would not even go beyond the group stage. Nobody comes close to him in terms of stats.

The guy finished as the 3rd top scorer with the best average rating, most motm awards etc. Nobody created more chances as well as clear-cut goal chances than him, nobody had more successful dribblings etc in the whole tournament. Nobody had better passing stats. It is not like he came out of nowhere and grabbed the award.

When Di Maria converted Messi's assist against the Swiss, all was great. But when Palacio (you have to see the chance he missed against Holland in the SF on youtube), Higuain, and Aguero all failed to convert their clear chances created by Messi in the knock-outs, it would be called "Messi did not perform well in the KOs"..

 

[Gehrman]

Remember when posters said he'd do well in PL because he kept scoring against PL teams in CL? well duh, he was with Barca scoring against those teams. Its a different thing to be playing with another team. Almost like a different world if you had spent 80% of your career in Spain.

Swap a young Messi and put him in Fergie's team, do you think he'd struggle much? Both prime Ferdinand and Vidic said they had no idea how to stop him in the CL finals. But I guess putting the world best defenders on their ass doesn't count if you play for Barca.

 

[allen7]

Watched the match yesterday and the tactical setup wasn’t really helping messi to do his magic. He gets the ball, cuts 2 defenders and looks for someone nearby to do a pass exchange but there is really none. So he fells down and no foul then nice players do a counter attack. Many times this happened yesterday with he looks dejected and walks hopelessly on the pitch.

I’m sure he will start scoring again with a change in coach and tactics. But when the time comes his legs won’t be as quick as its now.

 

[genardk]

Remember when posters said he'd do well in PL because he kept scoring against PL teams in CL? well duh, he was with Barca scoring against those teams. Its a different thing to be playing with another team. Almost like a different world if you had spent 80% of your career in Spain.

Yeah, he probably would not be able to do as well as mighty Fabregas or David Silva.. PL has been inferior to La Liga for so long except for the last couple of years.
Also, Messi did not just play well against PL teams and scored tons of goals, he humiliated them, that's a different type of performance..

 

[Gehrman]

Watched the match yesterday and the tactical setup wasn’t really helping messi to do his magic. He gets the ball, cuts 2 defenders and looks for someone nearby to do a pass exchange but there is really none. So he fells down and no foul then nice players do a counter attack. Many times this happened yesterday with he looks dejected and walks hopelessly on the pitch.

I’m sure he will start scoring again with a change in coach and tactics. But when the time comes his legs won’t be as quick as its now.

He also receives the ball too deep if he's expected to score goals. He got one decent chance that was it. I can't watch PSG games though unless it's CL, so I can only watch Messi highlights, so I don't see his off the ball movement which might be really bad.

 

[KingCavani]

City signing him would have been the best thing to happen the rest of the PL.

Him and Ronaldo both are coasting on reputation. Ageing is a bitch.

 

[Gehrman]

City signing him would have been the best thing to happen the rest of the PL.

Him and Ronaldo both are coasting on reputation. Ageing is a bitch.

Would have been interesting to see how it would have played out if they signed him when he put in a transfer request at 33.

 

[slored1]

Got to admit he's been a dreadful purchase. Even the PSG fans are starting to say it.

 

[Gehrman]

Got to admit he's been a dreadful purchase. Even the PSG fans are starting to say it.

If he doesn't step up his game soon consistently, he'll definitely be considered a flop due to his wages and stature. Messi said in a more recent interview that as he gets older, he expects more to be a playmaker than a goalscorer so he expects his numbers to go down and it doesn't bother him much, but I expected him to hit at least 20 goals this season since he's Messi.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Nobody comes close to him in terms of stats.
The guy finished as the 3rd top scorer with the best average rating, most motm awards etc.

Famous objective stat "man of the match award."

 

[MrEleson]

City signing him would have been the best thing to happen the rest of the PL.

Him and Ronaldo both are coasting on reputation. Ageing is a bitch.

Ronaldo has been better than him in a less dominant team in a far more competitive league.

I’d expect Ronaldo to be on 20 league goals by now if in that PSG side.

 

[Gehrman]

Famous objective stat "man of the match award."

Not a bad stat. As United fans, we can most often agree on who the best united player on the pitch was. You can say this stat isn't really meaningfull unless you consider the opposition and the occasion. Being Motm against Iran doesn't really count as much as say being motm against Germany or another great international side. Same goes for club football, but it's not a pointless stat at all. I can't see why it should be.

 

[Gehrman]

Ronaldo has been better than him in a less dominant team in a far more competitive league.

I’d expect Ronaldo to be on 20 league goals by now if in that PSG side.

Correct. But there is like a thread for that. I know you didn't make the initial point.

 

[genardk]

Ronaldo has been better than him in a less dominant team in a far more competitive league.

I’d expect Ronaldo to be on 20 league goals by now if in that PSG side.

Ronaldo is a poacher. Do you see where Messi is getting the ball? Put Ronaldo at Messi's position deep in the midfield, he will probably be substituted in the first 15 minutes.

 

[Gehrman]

Ronaldo is a poacher. Do you see where Messi is getting the ball? Put Ronaldo at Messi's position deep in the midfield, he will probably be substituted in the first 15 minutes.

Messi used to be able to receive the ball deep and get on the scoresheet anyway. But yeah Messi needs service as well. But he's definitely not playing as a striker. Still I can only watch highlights apart from CL matches. So I can't see what he does when he doesn't get the ball. Off the ball movement matters as well. If he doesn't run to get into good positions, he'll get less chances.

 

[cyberman]

Ronaldo is a poacher. Do you see where Messi is getting the ball? Put Ronaldo at Messi's position deep in the midfield, he will probably be substituted in the first 15 minutes.

Ronaldo is dropping deep for us and allowing the wide men to cut in. Ronaldo being a poacher for us is a myth

 

[genardk]

Messi used to be able to receive the ball deep and get on the scoresheet anyway. But yeah Messi needs service as well. But he's definitely not playing as a striker. Still I can only watch highlights apart from CL matches. So I can't see what he does when he doesn't get the ball. Off the ball movement matters as well. If he doesn't run to get into good positions, he'll get less chances.

Below is what some PSG fans say about Messi on their forum after Nice game, there seems to be a lack of fit/understanding etc. between Messi and other players.

"Well, when Messi has the ball, and he dribbled a player and he found himself surrounded by 2 or 3 players, if you're not too bad at math normally there must be a lot of free players around him .

Well apparently our players are more interested in watching him play, rather than making calls or combining with him.

Same problem with Marco by the way. "

 

[Cloud7]

Isn’t lovely to have a debate about Ronaldo vs Schick on the Messi thread?!

Ben Yedder vs Messi and Schick vs Ronaldo.

Growth.

 

[MrEleson]

Ronaldo is a poacher. Do you see where Messi is getting the ball? Put Ronaldo at Messi's position deep in the midfield, he will probably be substituted in the first 15 minutes.

Messi receives the ball deep yet still manages to be anonymous and have minimal impact on games,

 

[Gehrman]

Messi receives the ball deep yet still manages to be anonymous and have minimal impact on games,

Apart from a few games, he's been average at best and shit at worst. If he wants to get on the scoresheet, he needs roam closer to the box. Whatever the plan is at the moment it's not really working. Or he's just past it/can't adapt/out of form.

 

[tenpoless]

If I never saw a game of football in my life that would probably be the sort of logic I'd apply, too. Though I'd probably still get that LabLiga wiped the floor with the EPL for the best part of the last two decades. But since I did a bit of football in my life I instead just trust my eyes to recognize a great player. And Messi was way better than anything the EPL has had on offer.

Messi is STILL better than anything Ligue 1 has to offer.

 

[tenpoless]

Yeah, he probably would not be able to do as well as mighty Fabregas or David Silva.. PL has been inferior to La Liga for so long except for the last couple of years.
Also, Messi did not just play well against PL teams and scored tons of goals, he humiliated them, that's a different type of performance..

If he plays with Neymar, Mbappe and Verrati he would destroy Ligue 1.

 

[Ixion]

Not a bad stat. As United fans, we can most often agree on who the best united player on the pitch was. You can say this stat isn't really meaningfull unless you consider the opposition and the occasion. Being Motm against Iran doesn't really count as much as say being motm against Germany or another great international side. Same goes for club football, but it's not a pointless stat at all. I can't see why it should be.

Because 99% of the time it goes to goal scorers regardless of performance. It is a meaningless stat.

 

[Samid]

Mad stat.

 

[Gehrman]

Because 99% of the time it goes to goal scorers regardless of performance. It is a meaningless stat.

I hate to bring it up, but Ronaldo would have far more motm awards if that was the case. Especially at Juventus. Kante was hailed for his motm perfomances in the CL semi's and final last year without scoring a goal. Goalscorers definitely have and edge but I dont think its that simple.

 

[Pintu]

Remember when posters said he'd do well in PL because he kept scoring against PL teams in CL? well duh, he was with Barca scoring against those teams. Its a different thing to be playing with another team. Almost like a different world if you had spent 80% of your career in Spain.

If he were playing for a similar team to that Barça Prime Messi would be scoring many goals anywhere.

This PSG side is different.

Ronaldo has been better than him in a less dominant team in a far more competitive league.

I’d expect Ronaldo to be on 20 league goals by now if in that PSG side.

I'm not sure he would, it depends on the PSG side. Whether they are playing for him or not. Icardi scored 20 + goals in Serie A many times and he can't replicate that for this PSG side.

Not talking about Ronaldo in the PL... Still too early, I would agree that Serie A is a more competitive league than Ligue 1 and that Ronaldo's 2018/19 and 2019/20 seasons are far better than what Messi seems to be producing now. But there is no guarantee that Ronaldo would have scored as much for Paris as he did for Juventus.


Serie A is a high-scoring league, while the french Ligue 1 is a very defensive and physical championship.


This figure is from 2020, and Ligue 1 is opening up more and more, but I don't think that applies to PSG:s games. Teams will sit deep against them.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Serie A is a high-scoring league, while the french Ligue 1 is a very defensive and physical championship.

But do you realise PSG has scored far more league goals in Ligue 1 every season than Juventus in Serie A? I am not trying to comparing Messi at PSG vs Ronaldo at Juventus, because I don't think it matters on grand scale anyway, as its usually quite pointless to compare GOATs at their mid 30s. But facts are facts.

 

[Gehrman]

If he were playing for a similar team to that Barça Prime Messi would be scoring many goals anywhere.

This PSG side is different.



I'm not sure he would, it depends on the PSG side. Whether they are playing for him or not. Icardi scored 20 + goals in Serie A many times and he can't replicate that for this PSG side.

Not talking about Ronaldo in the PL... Still too early, I would agree that Serie A is a more competitive league than Ligue 1 and that Ronaldo's 2018/19 and 2019/20 seasons are far better than what Messi seems to be producing now. But there is no guarantee that Ronaldo would have scored as much for Paris as he did for Juventus.


Serie A is a high-scoring league, while the french Ligue 1 is a very defensive and physical championship.


This figure is from 2020, and Ligue 1 is opening up more and more, but I don't think that applies to PSG:s games. Teams will sit deep against them.

I don't really think they age at the same rate. They play different roles as well especially as they get older. I know that Ronaldo and Messi have a goat rivalry, but I dont really think it makes sense to keep that going past the retirement age for most great footballers. I don't doubt Ronaldo has already won the past 34+ goalscoring award.

 

[SportingCP96]

Remember when posters said he'd do well in PL because he kept scoring against PL teams in CL? well duh, he was with Barca scoring against those teams. Its a different thing to be playing with another team. Almost like a different world if you had spent 80% of your career in Spain.

The metric of sayinf he has many goals vs top 6 epl clubs literally does not count unless you are playing in the epl. He played for the greatest club side of all time.

I always said it. There is a reason he never left Barca. The signs were their when you saw him play for Argentina that things were a little diffe Outside of the Barca bubble.

That to me is why Ronaldo playing in 3 different leagues all at the same level is a big needle mover in the debate.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Messi is STILL better than anything Ligue 1 has to offer.

Messi cannot fail. He can only be failed. It's Ligue 1 that's failing around him.

 

[Calidad]

The metric of sayinf he has many goals vs top 6 epl clubs literally does not count unless you are playing in the epl. He played for the greatest club side of all time.

I always said it. There is a reason he never left Barca. The signs were their when you saw him play for Argentina that things were a little diffe Outside of the Barca bubble.

That to me is why Ronaldo playing in 3 different leagues all at the same level is a big needle mover in the debate.

Perhaps he didn’t leave because he was playing for arguably the best club side in the world, in the best league in the world, with some of the best players in the world. He’d also been at said club since a boy.

A wild stab in the dark I know, but just putting it out there.

 

[Bebestation]

The metric of sayinf he has many goals vs top 6 epl clubs literally does not count unless you are playing in the epl. He played for the greatest club side of all time.

I always said it. There is a reason he never left Barca. The signs were their when you saw him play for Argentina that things were a little diffe Outside of the Barca bubble.

That to me is why Ronaldo playing in 3 different leagues all at the same level is a big needle mover in the debate.

This.

Still one of the GOATS but when watching Argentina you could see he was a little bit different outside of Barcelona. Now watching him in PSG is not much of a surprise.

 

[Morty_]

In the end though, nobody at PSG really cares about the french cup, as long as the team turns up for CL, this game will be forgotten right away.

 

[Chairman Steve]

Didn’t Ferguson once say that he thought Ronaldo could play for any team and be great and thought Messi looked great in a Barcelona team and that’s it? This is like a good 10 years ago at least.

Seems to be ringing true but I have no idea whether he was just bigging up his boy or whether Ferguson did actually think that objectively.

 

[Morty_]

Didn’t Ferguson once say that he thought Ronaldo could play for any team and be great and thought Messi looked great in a Barcelona team and that’s it? This is like a good 10 years ago at least.

Seems to be ringing true but I have no idea whether he was just bigging up his boy or whether Ferguson did actually think that objectively.

Ronaldo's age is also showing, in a better league yes, but eventually ages come for us all.

 

[Gehrman]

Perhaps he didn’t leave because he was playing for arguably the best club side in the world, in the best league in the world, with some of the best players in the world. He’d also been at said club since a boy.

A wild stab in the dark I know, but just putting it out there.

Its so weird he didnt downgrade. Barca was only the best team in the world during pep and their 2nd treble.

 

[Morty_]

Its so weird he didnt downgrade. Barca was only the best team in the world during pep and their 2nd treble.

Among the best under EV as well tbf.

 

[romufc]

Yeah, he probably would not be able to do as well as mighty Fabregas or David Silva.. PL has been inferior to La Liga for so long except for the last couple of years.
Also, Messi did not just play well against PL teams and scored tons of goals, he humiliated them, that's a different type of performance..

PL has been inferior for so long?

2004/5 CL and Liverpool in semis and AC winning it
2005/06 Arsenal v Barcelona final
2006/07 Liverpool, United Chelsea semi finalise - AC winning Final
2007/08 - Liverpool, United Chelsea semi finals 0 United win
2008 /08 - Arsenal United Chelsea semis - Barca win
2009/10 - Barca got to semi
2010/11 - United final - Real and Barca semi and Barca won
2011/12 - Real and Barca Semi - Chelsea won
2012/13 - Bayern and Dortmund dominated
2013-17 - Real dominated
17/18 - Liverpool final - Real won
18/19 - Spurs and Liverpool final
1920 - PSG and Bayern - NO english or spanish team
20/21 - All English final

PL dominated then Barca and Real for a few years and the PL is dominating again since 2018. Where PL had Arsenal, Chelsea, United, Liverpool, Spurs, City all in finals since 2005, Spain have had 3.

Messi was playing for arguably one of the best ever football teams, they humiliated teams without him too, they were just that good. Its a bit like City and Liverpool now, they can humiliate anyone on their day.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Got to admit he's been a dreadful purchase. Even the PSG fans are starting to say it.

0 chances created, strolling around for 90 mins even when his team had the ball.... "Pessi" was trending again yesterday after the match ended

 

[Daysleeper]

The metric of sayinf he has many goals vs top 6 epl clubs literally does not count unless you are playing in the epl. He played for the greatest club side of all time.

I always said it. There is a reason he never left Barca. The signs were their when you saw him play for Argentina that things were a little diffe Outside of the Barca bubble.

That to me is why Ronaldo playing in 3 different leagues all at the same level is a big needle mover in the debate.

Nah, Ronaldo also played for the best team in England, the most legendary team in Spain, and the biggest team in Italy.

Messi has also had a solid CL campaign despite his domestic woes.