In my eyes he never broke that record. He had more matches.
Lionel Messi - Performances
- Thread starter Rado_N
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In my eyes he never broke that record. He had more matches.
Brwned i'll get back to this later, but your last bit is full of holes so i'll need a bit of time.
Sounds like good ol' Bayern bias to me. I'd say that's balanced out by the fact he played against a higher standard of opponent. The value of Muller's 12 goals in the Ligapokal for example is questionable given it was essentially a friendly tournament that Bayern seemingly cared so little about that they couldn't even be bothered progressing past the group stages.
Well, we are comparing GOAT players to determine who was greatest of all time so i dont think im wrong when i rate more the one who won much more as performance wise all top tier players are pretty similar.
And while Maradona was great at Napoli it was smaller club like you said and its much easier to play for smaller club then for the top club. We all hold something against the ones who are performing for smaller clubs and there are always questions can they do it in a better club surrounded with great players. Many people think that its easier to play when you are surrounded by great players but in fact its much harder, they also say how Messi is playing in his comfort zone for Barca and he cant produce outside of it, well we can make assumption that Maradona comfort zone was playing for smaller teams(Napoli and Argentina).
With the talent Maradona possess you should imagine that he wouldnt had problems dealing with that just like Messi should be able to win something on his own for Argentina as he is by far the best player in the world and the most complete player in the world but both of them leaved open door for doubters....for now at least as Messi still has the chance to prove his doubters wrong.
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That I agree with to an extent. I disagree with everything else though. I don't think you can say one or the the other is easier. They just pose different challenges. Maradona never really showed he could be crown jewel in a team packed full of superstars in the way Messi or Pelé did and continue to do. Given the talent and mentality he possessed it's reasonable to assume he could have adapted to those challenges but some doubt is valid, IMO, given the fact he was such an individualist who needed the whole game to pass through him.
He certainly didn't excel at Barca in the way he did at the clubs either side of that. There were mitigating factors for that which he had no control over whatsoever (illness, injury etc.) but still, I think if you wanted to scrutinise his career you could have question marks over that. Similarly his worst performances for Argentina came in '82 and that was the best Argentina team he played in, IMO. That said it did look like he was on track to have a pretty impressive tournament in '94 despite being on his last legs before it all fell apart.
I just think any attempt to belittle his achievements in Argentina or Italy on trophies alone is silly. The fact he's seen as a god at these clubs tells you all you need to know, and if you look at the context surrounding those few trophies it's very easy to understand why.
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I would say that I do not want to go through all the matches Messi did that year like that...
It is difficult to compare different periods as you see in this thread in the comparison between Messi and Maradona.
You could say that at that time the ball was heavier, too. And the pitch not watered. There was no floor heating...
Gerd Müller was the guy with the absolute instinct for goals - and that is unbeaten. Messi has other qualities on the ball.
But actually I think they have thinks in common because of their character. Only that Gerd had others in the team that were the leaders and word leaders.
Not counting the Ligapokal would be the same as saying League Cup goals wouldn't count to a record in England. Yeah, we only had that 2nd cup tournament once and didn't make it a regular competition, but it was an official tournament organised by the German football league. And 12 goals in 5 games in the Ligapokal don't look that crazy if you consider that Müller also scored 12 goals in 6 European Cup games that season.
I don't get the discussion though. The record for most goals scored in a year rightfully belongs to Messi now, because, well, he scored the most goals in a year. It doesn't matter if he played more games.
Great video. People should stop arguing and just watch this.
Team doesn't win trophy = poor season individually for players. At least that seams the case for some on this forum. Pretty convinced some think Cole and Yorke were better than Batistuta and Totti reading this forum.
But, but... Messi can't do it for Argentina
On a side note, it's not often you see sensible Madrid fans who accept Messi is superior to Ronaldo, like you do.
Good on you for not being swayed by biasFortunately my "culé" friends never will know that I publish these kind of videosBut, but... Messi can't do it for Argentina
On a side note, it's not often you see sensible Madrid fans who accept Messi is superior to Ronaldo, like you do.
.I love Cristiano and will always defend him but I'm not blind Fortunately my "culé" friends never will know that I publish these kind of videos
in term of talent ronaldo was par messi when they were both youngsters. but ronaldo had his game developed very wrong after he moved to madrid.
fergie would check him in balance to not giving up team play, and would not allow him to build up those unnecessary muscle on his upper body which means nothing but dead weight. madrid simply had no clue how to develop his game except allowing him to add his own goal tolls.
if ronaldo stayed in united he could easily win 3 champions league within 5 years with us, a straight 5 premier league titles which could make him the all time great of a united player and in england history. with the global dominance of popularity of united, he could also easily win out a straight 3 ballon d'or honor for his own.
now he is even going to find struggle in his latest years with madrid. obviously perez will put bale as the no 1 for coming years and he will be sidelined
that's all his choices
No.
You blame Madrid for his development?I don't see the relation between muscles and innate talent.
nope. it's more about ronaldon's own personality and his bad advisor. this is all well known madrid don't develop player and certainly it doesn't help much.
That's where we differ. That little S there. There is only one achievement for Maradona with Argentina, in one year, in one tournament. That's the truth.
Reaching a second WC Final (1990) and helping your team qualify for the WC in a two-legged play-off, after not having featured in the NT for 3 years (1994) aren't achievements? By those standards, Messi hasn't achieved anything at all with Argentina's senior side.
Are you serious? Even then, Messi was better. He scored a hattrick in the freaking El Clasico at the age of 19, ffs.
Yep. As I said at the time, Cristiano and Kaka deserved their ballon d'Or awards but Messi was the best back then too, he'd just had too many injuries to show it.
But those are the standards I'm using here, which are the standards that are being used with Messi. Messi has already surpassed everything Maradona did with the National team apart from 1986.
Based on what exactly? And what a strange line of thought anyway... try taking away Messi's best achievement with Arg and see who he compares with? It seems to me you're just looking for ways to downplay or minimize the impact of 1986 in order to make their NT careers seem closer to each other than they really are at the moment.
Messi still has time to find some success with Argentina, but so far it's all been quite underwhelming apart from a few early blips in 2006-07 and mainly the period 2012-14 under Sabella, which was magnificent (and the only time he was equal to or better than his corresponding club form IMO). The Paraguay game was probably one of his best ever for the NT, followed immediately by one of his worst in the Final against Chile. After the season he's had, there is no excuse for him to not have imposed himself on that game -- his team mates took bad decisions and their MF was non-existent from the 60th minute onwards, but he should've taken control himself and driven them on far, far more than what he did -- he allowed himself to become isolated.
The two greatest differences with Maradona right there: 1. mentality/leadership/will to win (call it what you want) and 2. the discrepancy in performances for NT compared to club, overall, is a lot bigger and more visible for Messi than it was for Maradona
lol. It's exactly the other way around. you're trying to inflate Maradona's achievements with Argentina using the 1986 world cup to suggest that the gap between them is bigger than it is, when in reality you have nothing else to add.
- Messi took Argentina to the Copa America final. Maradona never did that.
- Messi was more influential in taking Argentina to the 2014 final than Maradona in 1990 (and you see people here even trying to give Maradona the credit for taking Argentina to the final when it's utter non-sense. Argentina had a great team that actually won the Copa America comfortably one year later without Maradona).
- Messi won an Olympic gold medal with Argentina (even though it's not Maradona's fault that he doesn't have one)
- Messi already scored more goals for Argentina than Maradona (1986 included).
- Maradona has done absolutely nothing else with Argentina that Messi didn't match or surpass.
I don't know what problem you have with the hard fact that Maradona's impressive international career/success was all about the 1986 World Cup. I also don't know why this fact immediately strikes a nerve with the Maradona fanboys (the wise kind of fanboys), that they immediately attack the poster, rather than refute the facts in it.
Would you say the same about Maradona in the 1986 world cup final?
Eh? You misunderstand. Maradona's 1986 is widely seen as one of, if not thé, best individual performances in international football -- of course it's what makes almost all of the difference! It's also not something that Messi has ever come close to replicating (you could perhaps compare the first four games with 2014, but after that at QF and SF stage there is very little comparison). Like I said, if you take away Messi's 2014 his résumé with the NT suddenly doesn't look very "all-timey", wouldn't you agree?
Messi's 2014 and Maradona's 1990 are very similar in a lot of ways. Neither in top form or shape (both coming off of injury lay-offs if I remember correctly?) and missing a lot of team mates in the latter stages or Final (Di María, Agüero to injury; Caniggia, Olarticoechea to injury & Giusti to suspension). Both of them the main creative element in very defensively-minded teams, unable to really impose themselves in the latter stages save for some moments (cf. Maradona's assist v Brazil and Messi's v Switzerland, very similar again). I agree with you that Messi was probably better and certainly more influential (Maradona even missed a pk in a shoot-out, the real hero twice in a row being Goycochea).
Messi has been better in the Copa América than Maradona, I agree. But the biggest point of difference is still the WC and especially the opponents and big moments.
Messi's opponents in the WC:
- Serbia & Montenegro, 1 goal + 1 assist (as a sub)
- Netherlands
- Mexico (as a sub)
- Nigeria
- South Korea
- Greece
- Mexico, 1 assist
- Germany
- Bosnia-Herzegovina, 1 goal
- Iran, 1 goal
- Nigeria, 2 goals
- Switzerland, 1 assist
- Belgium
- Netherlands, scored in pen. shoot-out
- Germany
Maradona's opponents in the WC:
- Belgium
- Hungary, 2 goals
- El Salvador
- Italy
- Brazil, sent off
- South Korea, 3 assists
- Italy, 1 goal
- Bulgaria, 1 assist
- Uruguay
- England, 2 goals
- Belgium, 2 goals
- West-Germany, 1 assist
- Cameroon
- USSR
- Romania, 1 assist
- Brazil, 1 assist
- Yugoslavia, missed in pen. shoot-out
- Italy, scored in pen. shoot-out
- West-Germany
- Greece, 1 goal
- Nigeria, 1 assist
The calibre of opponents is less impressive in Messi's case if you ask me.
You'd expect Messi to score more than Maradona (based on what we've seen from their club careers + the differences in era's), but even if he didn't I wouldn't hold it against him that much as he's always played a diff. role for the NT than at Barça -- however, when like in the latter stages of 2010 & 2014 WC and in this Copa (except for the Paraguay game really) he also fails to provide as a playmaker then that is a far bigger issue than simply not scoring, in my opinion.
Re: Maradona's 1986 final. Yes, I would say that. But he also gets a lot more leeway because of what he did in the previous two games, unlike Messi. Not only that, he did still provide the game-winning pass. That said, Messi's final was actually pretty good (for me his 3rd best game that WC, after Switzerland and Nigeria) and not much different to Maradona's I thought.
-- in summary, if we take away 1986 from Maradona then sure I guess you could claim his NT career doesn't differ that much from Messi's or is even inferior; I don't really see how that means anything though, as when you take away 2014 from Messi his NT career doesn't amount to much on an all-time level even... If you want to claim double-standards, it might be helpful to not employ them yourself?
Just to show my point again, here is how the comparison will actually look like without the 1986 WC. You see the point now.
Messi's opponents in the WC:
- Serbia & Montenegro, 1 goal + 1 assist (as a sub)
- Netherlands
- Mexico (as a sub)
- Nigeria
- South Korea
- Greece
- Mexico, 1 assist
- Germany
- Bosnia-Herzegovina, 1 goal
- Iran, 1 goal
- Nigeria, 2 goals
- Switzerland, 1 assist
- Belgium
- Netherlands, scored in pen. shoot-out
- Germany
Maradona's opponents in the WC:
- Belgium
- Hungary, 2 goals
- El Salvador
- Italy
- Brazil, sent off
- Cameroon
- USSR
- Romania, 1 assist
- Brazil, 1 assist
- Yugoslavia, missed in pen. shoot-out
- Italy, scored in pen. shoot-out
- West-Germany
- Greece, 1 goal
- Nigeria, 1 assist
We can't really talk about the "caliber of the teams" since we're talking about comparable stages in the same competition (group stages/quarter finals/...etc.). And in fact, I can also say that there is really only one team that could beat Messi in the world cup. No other team managed to beat Messi in the world cup other than Germany.
You could take 2014 off Messi's international career if you want, but I'm not the one saying "he consistently played great for Argentina". It's the Maradona fans who are giving the wrong picture that he was consistently great with Argentina. He wasn't consistently great with Argentina, he had one great tournament that set him apart from the rest. In the rest of his career he didn't do anything 'great' with Argentina. I still don't understand why some people have a problem with this reality. Obviously you agree with me here.
This is just not right.... you could see Ronaldo had talent as an 18/19 yr old playing for United, but you could already see Messi would be the worlds best at that age playing for Barca.
Ronaldo development and rise IMO was a little surprising, I always saw him being a top player and one of the best, but I think he has surpassed most peoples expectations tbh, I never thought he would be able to match Messi
The number of weighted passes lifted over the defence is ridiculous.
I laughed a little at the three headed flicks-ons leading to chances. Nice touch.
Messi must be a dream to play with. Nevermind the games his goals win you and that you can always give him the ball if you don't know what to do.
Defenders are swarming him, leaving his teammates in loads of space and no one knows how to exploit that with passing like he does.
Play him in the pirlo role when he gets old and he'll put all the old passmasters to shame.
I laughed a little at the three headed flicks-ons leading to chances. Nice touch.
Messi must be a dream to play with. Nevermind the games his goals win you and that you can always give him the ball if you don't know what to do.
Defenders are swarming him, leaving his teammates in loads of space and no one knows how to exploit that with passing like he does.
Play him in the pirlo role when he gets old and he'll put all the old passmasters to shame.
Master at threading the ball. That's all in one season? Ridiculous.
Always said that his passing is overlooked because the other aspects of his game are so incredible. It's one of the main reasons he's a far superior player than Ronaldo imo. I can see Messi prolonging his career by playing in midfield up until his late thirties, I think Ronaldo will start to drop off soon and won't become the no.9 that some people think. Could easily see Ronaldo retiring within three years.
The weight of those passes is freakishly perfect.
Ronaldo is not going to retire in 3 years because of a huge drop off in form. That's absolutely insane.
Its amazing how he and Ronaldo are so talented but in completely different ways.
The weight of his pass is quite incredible. Normally with a passing compilation (Scholes, Pirlo, Xavi, Riquelme etc) you can sort of tell which player the ball is going to but yet it's still a quality pass. With Messi, he literally creates angles and chances that no other player can see, them lofted balls with the dip are top quality. What a player!
This is not the right thread but, no way. His level might drop in 3 years, but he'll still be playing when he's 35 easily.
That pass where he's on the right and curls it over the opposition right back at the far post (usually into Neymar). He's done that in the past, but nowhere near as much as he's done it this year. They've clearly worked on that one, to perfection I might add. It's unstoppable, really.
The Greatest. Football won't be the same without him.
And to completely different extents, clearly.
I think the incredible thing about the two of them is that they are doing it during a time when there is a real lack of other great strikers. I'm not saying there hasn't been any but when you look at what they are doing you'd assume that defending has got much worse but it's not like there's loads of others scoring for fun.