Lionel Messi - Performances

[Danny1982]

Irrespective of how the 1986 final turned out, Maradona had already produced the greatest tournament of all time. The final was mostly a team effort and the icing on the cake.

Now your agenda is shining through crystal clear. Heed some of your own advice and go and watch the rest of the 1986 cup, or any of Argentina's internationals from 1978-1990 with him in the side: he was constantly the target of roughhouse tactics (which were largely par for the course and rarely penalised by referees). He hadn't been surprising anyone since 1977.

Yes, my agenda is quite obvious. It's called holding both players to the same standards. I know my posts would anger a few people who worship Maradona like God even though all what they've seen of him are the highlights that's shown over and over again and the great stories they read about him, but I'm simply putting a mirror in front of you guys. I'm simply treating Maradona the same way you do with Messi, even though I haven't called any of his performances "horrible" or "sh*t" yet.

Ok, let's bust some more myths..

Heed some of your own advice and go and watch the rest of the 1986 cup, or any of Argentina's internationals from 1978-1990 with him in the side: he was constantly the target of roughhouse tactics (which were largely par for the course and rarely penalised by referees). He hadn't been surprising anyone since 1977.

Like I said, I'm going to treat Maradona just like how Messi is treated, so pointless friendlies, pointless qualifiers, pointless group stages games, ... all don't count. Let's talk the world cup now.

1978: Clearly you have seen Maradona play. But I think you're the only one who saw him play in the 1978 world cup.

1982: You think Maradona had a good world cup in 1982?! Seriously? Oh and by the way, Argentina was knocked out in the second round, and Maradona had a, bad, world cup.

1986: We've already discussed it. The only tournament where he actually played great for Argentina (until the final).

1990: let me first quote Spoony here:

Half a Maradona almost retained the WC in 1990.

Messi did more in WC 2014 and Copa America 2015 than Maradona did in 1990. In fact Maradona even missed a penalty in one of the two shoot-outs they won to progress to the final, and Argentina was actually almost eliminated in the first round and only qualified as the best 3rd place (after losing to 10- and then 9-men Cameroon). So thank you for this post, because it shows perfectly my point here. With Maradona, when he plays badly and his team luckily gets to the final (and then lose it) it's "the great Maradona guiding the team back to the final", and when Messi plays much better than Maradona in 1990, and Argentina reaches the final in two years in a row (and only lose both finals after extra time) it's suddenly "Messi failing again". Pick a position, either both took Argentina to the final, or both "failed".

Where are the other "great performances for Argentina"? Maradona have never even won the Copa America. Are we going to discuss the qualifiers/friendlies now?


And again, I'm not trying to diminish Maradona here, and in fact I don't agree with "my judgement" here, not because what I said is inaccurate, but because I think that simplistic way of looking at a player's performance is not the right way to judge a player, whether it's Maradona or Messi. But if we're going to dissect every single Messi game, and then cherry pick the games that we consider "important" and exclude the games that we consider "not important" then the same can be done with Maradona.

 

[Brwned]

yeah Maradona never went to World cups being compared to a player from a previous era, expected to win it by himself, his every game and every move scrutinised worldwide.

Messi's been dealing with pressure Maradona simple never had to deal with, mental pressure is a big factor in football. El Diego never knew the half of it, even now he wouldn't because he'd be on drugs and that'd take the edge off

You see, now you're just making things up. Maradona wasn't under much pressure? Come on. For anyone who can read Spanish, here's a couple of good articles in the build up to his first two World Cups from a Colombian newspaper at the time:

http://www.semana.com/especiales/articulo/no-soy-dios-apenas-maradona/368-3

http://www.semana.com/deportes/articulo/maradona-vs-platini/7771-3

The title of the first article in 1982 is a famous quote from Maradona when he was just 22 - "No soy dios, apenas Maradona" / "I am not god, I am only Maradona". If that doesn't give you an impression of the pressure he was under then I don't know what will. He was the "pibe de oro" - the golden boy - of the reigning World Cup champions with the world at his feet and the spotlight shining brightly on him. As described in the article, he was an "idol in a country where the idols are lost in the distant past, this child." who was under the spotlight on a global scale, with the expectation that he would confirm he was ready to "take the throne vacated by "the king Pele"".*

The second article from 1986 is the mid-80s version of the Ronaldo vs. Messi debate, Maradona vs. Platini, with the subtitle: "¿Quién será el nuevo rey?" / "Who will be the new king?". Another reference to Pelé of course. Within it they talk about the importance of each player to their teams, and when it comes to Maradona they sum it up quite easily - "the absence of Maradona would be a national catastrophe".** That might sound self-explanatory now but his backup was Ricardo Bochini, one of the best playmakers in the world in the 80s and he wasn't far off Alain Giresse's level at all. Platini's absence was seen as a blow but manageable due to Giresse's presence, but Maradona's absence was on a different level altogether. That underpins his value and importance in the team before it even started - it wasn't something that came about after his superhuman performances, he was just living up to huge expectations. They even went on to say that Maradona "owes it to the fans"*** due to the embarrassing end to his previous World Cup.

In other words by the time it got to the build-up to 1986 World Cup he'd already been compared to Pelé for a decade, he was expected to have announced himself as the new occupier of Pelé's vacated throne and subsequently indebted to the fans because he failed to live up to these expectations in the previous tournament, bringing shame onto the nation not only because he failed to show he was Argentina's answer to Pelé but because he couldn't even win a game against the current Brazil with their own pretender to the throne - el Pelé blanco, Zico. The expectation was huge. It just so happened that he flourished under this incredible pressure.

There's nothing wrong with thinking Messi's better but I don't know why people feel the need to try and downplay the achievements of those he's being compared to with complete nonsense. There are plenty of valid reasons for thinking Pelé, Messi, di Stéfano, Cruyff, Beckenbauer or Maradona is the best. Why not just focus on what makes your particular favourite great, rather than trying to invent things to make the others look inferior?

Direct quotations:

*Idolo en un país, donde los ídolos, se pierden en el pasado remoto, este niño. Diego Armando Maradona, es desde el domingo el centro de atención de todo el mundo, que espera que el "Pibe de oro" confirme su categoría sobre el césped de los campos españoles u ocupe el trono que dejó vacío el "Rey Pelé".

**Son fundamentales en el esquema de sus equipos: para Carlos Salvador Bilardo, la ausencia de Maradona puede convertirse en una catástrofe nacional. Como eje del equipo, se hace indispensable. No hay forma de reemplazarlo en el seleccionado. El técnico Henri Michel tiene menos problemas a ese nivel. Aunque naturalmente la ausencia de Platini causaría un duro golpe para Francia, hay dos inteligentes armadores que lo podrían sustituir, si es el caso: Jean Tigana o Alain Giresse.

***Maradona está aún en deuda con la afición.

EDIT: And here's a newspaper article from 1980 in which the Argentina coach Menotti says he is "One of those supermen who appear only once in a while on the world football scene. They say he is the new Pelé, but that's all wrong. This boy is the first Maradona". He was special long before he'd even played in the World Cup.

 

[Danny1982]

Maradonna never played for a club where it was an ever rotating door of world class players in and out. Yes he played for Barcelona, but they're a different beast now.

What seems to be a common denominator between Messi and Ronaldo these days is that unless their teams are far superior to the opposition, they do not look half as good as their numbers suggest. They are both very clinical and have moments of absolute brilliance, but for me i'm struggling to see how either of them could ever take a half baked team to world cup or cl finals.

Which Maradona did?

In the 2012-2013 season (as an example), Barcelona finished the 1st in the league with a record 100 points. If you look at the team you won't find many stars (i.e. playing like stars) in the team. Xavi, Iniesta, Villa, were already declining, Fabregas and Sanchez (especially in his first season) never performed well for them, and we also got a glimpse of how that Barcelona side fared without Messi. Against PSG they were leading comfortably (by a Messi goal) until Messi was injured in the first half. They ended drawing the game 2-2, and in the return they were losing 1-0 (which meant they'd be knocked out by PSG) until a hobbling Messi came on with 30 minutes remaining to change the game and create the goal that sent them through. And in the next round they missed Messi again and they were destroyed by Bayern. Oh, and the list of top scorers for Barcelona in that season was like this:

Messi 60 goals
Villa 16 goals
Fabregas 14 goals
Sanchez 11 goals
Pedro 10 goals
Pedro 8 goals
...

Messi is the one making Barcelona the team they're now.

 

[Snake Plissken]

You see, now you're just making things up. Maradona wasn't under much pressure? Come on. For anyone who can read Spanish, here's a couple of good articles in the build up to his first two World Cups from a Colombian newspaper at the time:

http://www.semana.com/especiales/articulo/no-soy-dios-apenas-maradona/368-3

http://www.semana.com/deportes/articulo/maradona-vs-platini/7771-3

The title of the first article in 1982 is a famous quote from Maradona when he was just 22 - "No soy dios, apenas Maradona" / "I am not god, I am only Maradona". If that doesn't give you an impression of the pressure he was under then I don't know what will. He was the "pibe de oro" - the golden boy - of the reigning World Cup champions with the world at his feet and the spotlight shining brightly on him. As described in the article, he was an "idol in a country where the idols are lost in the distant past, this child." who was under the spotlight on a global scale, with the expectation that he would confirm he was ready to "take the throne vacated by "the king Pele"".*

The second article from 1986 is the mid-80s version of the Ronaldo vs. Messi debate, Maradona vs. Platini, with the subtitle: "¿Quién será el nuevo rey?" / "Who will be the new king?". Another reference to Pelé of course. Within it they talk about the importance of each player to their teams, and when it comes to Maradona they sum it up quite easily - "the absence of Maradona would be a national catastrophe".** That might sound self-explanatory now but his backup was Ricardo Bochini, one of the best playmakers in the world in the 80s and he wasn't far off Alain Giresse's level at all. Platini's absence was seen as a blow but manageable due to Giresse's presence, but Maradona's absence was on a different level altogether. That underpins his value and importance in the team before it even started - it wasn't something that came about after his superhuman performances, he was just living up to huge expectations. They even went on to say that Maradona "owes it to the fans"*** due to the embarrassing end to his previous World Cup.

In other words by the time it got to the build-up to 1986 World Cup he'd already been compared to Pelé for a decade, he was expected to have announced himself as the new occupier of Pelé's vacated throne and subsequently indebted to the fans because he failed to live up to these expectations in the previous tournament, bringing shame onto the nation not only because he failed to show he was Argentina's answer to Pelé but because he couldn't even win a game against the current Brazil with their own pretender to the throne - el Pelé blanco, Zico. The expectation was huge. It just so happened that he flourished under this incredible pressure.

There's nothing wrong with thinking Messi's better but I don't know why people feel the need to try and downplay the achievements of those he's being compared to with complete nonsense. There are plenty of valid reasons for thinking Pelé, Messi, di Stéfano, Cruyff, Beckenbauer or Maradona is the best. Why not just focus on what makes your particular favourite great, rather than trying to invent things to make the others look inferior?

Direct quotations:

*Idolo en un país, donde los ídolos, se pierden en el pasado remoto, este niño. Diego Armando Maradona, es desde el domingo el centro de atención de todo el mundo, que espera que el "Pibe de oro" confirme su categoría sobre el césped de los campos españoles u ocupe el trono que dejó vacío el "Rey Pelé".

**Son fundamentales en el esquema de sus equipos: para Carlos Salvador Bilardo, la ausencia de Maradona puede convertirse en una catástrofe nacional. Como eje del equipo, se hace indispensable. No hay forma de reemplazarlo en el seleccionado. El técnico Henri Michel tiene menos problemas a ese nivel. Aunque naturalmente la ausencia de Platini causaría un duro golpe para Francia, hay dos inteligentes armadores que lo podrían sustituir, si es el caso: Jean Tigana o Alain Giresse.

***Maradona está aún en deuda con la afición.

EDIT: And here's a newspaper article from 1980 in which the Argentina coach Menotti says he is "One of those supermen who appear only once in a while on the world football scene. They say he is the new Pelé, but that's all wrong. This boy is the first Maradona". He was special long before he'd even played in the World Cup.

No YOURE making things up. I'm sure there's pressure for any player. My point was that he never played under the pressure Messi does, which given their separate circumstances I would say is an absolute fact.

 

[Balu]

There's nothing wrong with thinking Messi's better but I don't know why people feel the need to try and downplay the achievements of those he's being compared to with complete nonsense. There are plenty of valid reasons for thinking Pelé, Messi, di Stéfano, Cruyff, Beckenbauer or Maradona is the best. Why not just focus on what makes your particular favourite great, rather than trying to invent things to make the others look inferior?

That's what's annoying me to no end and the only reason I engage in these discussions. It's just sad.

 

[cyberman]

What pressure does Messi play under?
Just curious, IMO he plays so well for Barca because he doesn't feel the pressure, his legacy was assured by the time he was 25
Argentina on the other hand,his goal scoring record in every knockout round he has played for them has been shocking.

 

[RedRonaldo]

It's pity to see some fanboy has to downplay the past great in order to make Messi looks better. Messi is greatest in this era, and probably have the greatest club career than anyone else in the past. His level of consistency is probably unmatched in any era (only matched by Ronaldo probably) and what he has achieved at club level is probably 2nd to none (probably as good as Di Stefano and Pele). While his footballing can easily match with any of the past great (Maradona, Cruyff). The only thing lacking is international success (like many past great such as Best, Di Stefano, Cruyff, although one could argue Best and Di Stefano never played in WC, while Cruyff was the best player in WC history who never won it, Messi on the other hand never have a dominant WC, his best 14 WC performances ends at group stage etc)

Maradona, on the other hand, probably capture the heart of fans more than anyone else in football history with his 86 WC performance (5 goals, 5 assists, hand of God, goal of century, singlehandedly lead his team to WC glory) and his footballing was probably the best we've ever seen in game history throughout majority of his career during the 80s (before drugs took his career during the early 90s).

Let's face it, in true footballing sense, Maradona without WC success would still be regarded as the best player in his era (better than Platini, Zico), just as Messi without the multiple CL and La Liga success, will still be regarded as the best player in this era (still better than Ronaldo). In true footballing sense, they are pretty much equal. It's Maradona 86 success and Napoli legacy, and Messi consistency and success at club football which put them in strong position for GOAT.

 

[Gio]

Yes, my agenda is quite obvious. It's called holding both players to the same standards. I know my posts would anger a few people who worship Maradona like God even though all what they've seen of him are the highlights that's shown over and over again and the great stories they read about him, but I'm simply putting a mirror in front of you guys. I'm simply treating Maradona the same way you do with Messi, even though I haven't called any of his performances "horrible" or "sh*t" yet.

Ok, let's bust some more myths..




Like I said, I'm going to treat Maradona just like how Messi is treated, so pointless friendlies, pointless qualifiers, pointless group stages games, ... all don't count. Let's talk the world cup now.

1978: Clearly you have seen Maradona play. But I think you're the only one who saw him play in the 1978 world cup.

1982: You think Maradona had a good world cup in 1982?! Seriously? Oh and by the way, Argentina was knocked out in the second round, and Maradona had a, bad, world cup.

1986: We've already discussed it. The only tournament where he actually played great for Argentina (until the final).

1990: let me first quote Spoony here:

Messi did more in WC 2014 and Copa America 2015 than Maradona did in 1990. In fact Maradona even missed a penalty in one of the two shoot-outs they won to progress to the final, and Argentina was actually almost eliminated in the first round and only qualified as the best 3rd place (after losing to 10- and then 9-men Cameroon). So thank you for this post, because it shows perfectly my point here. With Maradona, when he plays badly and his team luckily gets to the final (and then lose it) it's "the great Maradona guiding the team back to the final", and when Messi plays much better than Maradona in 1990, and Argentina reaches the final in two years in a row (and only lose both finals after extra time) it's suddenly "Messi failing again". Pick a position, either both took Argentina to the final, or both "failed".

Where are the other "great performances for Argentina"? Maradona have never even won the Copa America. Are we going to discuss the qualifiers/friendlies now?


And again, I'm not trying to diminish Maradona here, and in fact I don't agree with "my judgement" here, not because what I said is inaccurate, but because I think that simplistic way of looking at a player's performance is not the right way to judge a player, whether it's Maradona or Messi. But if we're going to dissect every single Messi game, and then cherry pick the games that we consider "important" and exclude the games that we consider "not important" then the same can be done with Maradona.

As was pretty clear from my post, I was referencing Maradona's international career, not his World Cup performances, and the absurd suggestion that he flew under the radar until 1986. In 1982 he was fouled more times than any other player in the history of the cup. In 1986 he was fouled twice as many times as any other player in the history of the cup, before or since.

As for 1990, he was one of the best attacking players at the tournament. His ankle was buggered and he didn't excel in any way like 1986, but he still created a hell of a lot of chances for his team-mates and was, again, the victim of the sort of negative and tactical fouling that was routine within the game at that time. In fact there are a number of parallels between 1990 and 2014. In both tournaments Argentina were stodgy, relying on a solid defensive approach combined with the occasional flash of genius from their talisman, before being overcome narrowly by a German side that deserved to win the trophy. Wiki-based analyses apart, I have no idea where the evidence is for Messi "playing much better" in 2014 than Maradona did in 1990.

 

[kouroux]

It's pity to see some fanboy has to downplay the past great in order to make Messi looks better. Messi is greatest in this era, and probably have the greatest club career than anyone else in the past. His level of consistency is probably unmatched in any era (only matched by Ronaldo probably) and what he has achieved at club level is probably 2nd to none (probably as good as Di Stefano and Pele). While his footballing can easily match with any of the past great (Maradona, Cruyff). The only thing lacking is international success (like many past great such as Best, Di Stefano, Cruyff, although one could argue Best and Di Stefano never played in WC, while Cruyff was the best player in WC history who never won it, Messi on the other hand never have a dominant WC, his best 14 WC performances ends at group stage etc)

Maradona, on the other hand, probably capture the heart of fans more than anyone else in football history with his 86 WC performance (5 goals, 5 assists, hand of God, goal of century, singlehandedly lead his team to WC glory) and his footballing was probably the best we've ever seen in game history throughout majority of his career during the 80s (before drugs took his career during the early 90s).

Let's face it, in true footballing sense, Maradona without WC success would still be regarded as the best player in his era (better than Platini, Zico), just as Messi without the multiple CL and La Liga success, will still be regarded as the best player in this era (still better than Ronaldo). In true footballing sense, they are pretty much equal. It's Maradona 86 success and Napoli legacy, and Messi consistency and success at club football which put them in strong position for GOAT.

Good post.
It really is a waste of time to compare players from such different eras.

 

[Ish]

It's pity to see some fanboy has to downplay the past great in order to make Messi looks better. Messi is greatest in this era, and probably have the greatest club career than anyone else in the past. His level of consistency is probably unmatched in any era (only matched by Ronaldo probably) and what he has achieved at club level is probably 2nd to none (probably as good as Di Stefano and Pele). While his footballing can easily match with any of the past great (Maradona, Cruyff). The only thing lacking is international success (like many past great such as Best, Di Stefano, Cruyff, although one could argue Best and Di Stefano never played in WC, while Cruyff was the best player in WC history who never won it, Messi on the other hand never have a dominant WC, his best 14 WC performances ends at group stage etc)

Maradona, on the other hand, probably capture the heart of fans more than anyone else in football history with his 86 WC performance (5 goals, 5 assists, hand of God, goal of century, singlehandedly lead his team to WC glory) and his footballing was probably the best we've ever seen in game history throughout majority of his career during the 80s (before drugs took his career during the early 90s).

Let's face it, in true footballing sense, Maradona without WC success would still be regarded as the best player in his era (better than Platini, Zico), just as Messi without the multiple CL and La Liga success, will still be regarded as the best player in this era (still better than Ronaldo). In true footballing sense, they are pretty much equal. It's Maradona 86 success and Napoli legacy, and Messi consistency and success at club football which put them in strong position for GOAT.

This.

 

[Snake Plissken]

What pressure does Messi play under?
Just curious, IMO he plays so well for Barca because he doesn't feel the pressure, his legacy was assured by the time he was 25
Argentina on the other hand,his goal scoring record in every knockout round he has played for them has been shocking.

You kidding? Playing for one of the biggest clubs in the world where he's expected to win it all. That's no pressure?

Get away from the goal scoring thing for a minute, I have no idea why that's the only stat people want to look at, he doesn't play the same role for his country and I think it's fairly obvious he doesn't get the same level of service.

And Brwned before you ever start, I'm not saying Maradona played pressure free, but to me the suggestion he dealt with the same pressure Messi does given their respective circumstances if laughable.

 

[Snake Plissken]

It's pity to see some fanboy has to downplay the past great in order to make Messi looks better. Messi is greatest in this era, and probably have the greatest club career than anyone else in the past. His level of consistency is probably unmatched in any era (only matched by Ronaldo probably) and what he has achieved at club level is probably 2nd to none (probably as good as Di Stefano and Pele). While his footballing can easily match with any of the past great (Maradona, Cruyff). The only thing lacking is international success (like many past great such as Best, Di Stefano, Cruyff, although one could argue Best and Di Stefano never played in WC, while Cruyff was the best player in WC history who never won it, Messi on the other hand never have a dominant WC, his best 14 WC performances ends at group stage etc)

Maradona, on the other hand, probably capture the heart of fans more than anyone else in football history with his 86 WC performance (5 goals, 5 assists, hand of God, goal of century, singlehandedly lead his team to WC glory) and his footballing was probably the best we've ever seen in game history throughout majority of his career during the 80s (before drugs took his career during the early 90s).

Let's face it, in true footballing sense, Maradona without WC success would still be regarded as the best player in his era (better than Platini, Zico), just as Messi without the multiple CL and La Liga success, will still be regarded as the best player in this era (still better than Ronaldo). In true footballing sense, they are pretty much equal. It's Maradona 86 success and Napoli legacy, and Messi consistency and success at club football which put them in strong position for GOAT.

People need to downplay Maradona a bit, it levels off the ridiculous romanticized mythical bollocks that's attached to his career. The shining example of this being the England game, where he broke the deadlock by cheating, and then scored running from the halfway line, where if we're being honest he was harldy challenged until he got to Shilton, it's the type of goal that if it were scored by Messi today would lead to a page of comments on how pathetic the defending was.

That's the reality. Maradona is probably the greatest footballer of all time, but feck me there's a fair amount of bollocks talked about him.

 

[Danny1982]

It's pity to see some fanboy has to downplay the past great in order to make Messi looks better. Messi is greatest in this era, and probably have the greatest club career than anyone else in the past. His level of consistency is probably unmatched in any era (only matched by Ronaldo probably) and what he has achieved at club level is probably 2nd to none (probably as good as Di Stefano and Pele). While his footballing can easily match with any of the past great (Maradona, Cruyff). The only thing lacking is international success (like many past great such as Best, Di Stefano, Cruyff, although one could argue Best and Di Stefano never played in WC, while Cruyff was the best player in WC history who never won it, Messi on the other hand never have a dominant WC, his best 14 WC performances ends at group stage etc)

Maradona, on the other hand, probably capture the heart of fans more than anyone else in football history with his 86 WC performance (5 goals, 5 assists, hand of God, goal of century, singlehandedly lead his team to WC glory) and his footballing was probably the best we've ever seen in game history throughout majority of his career during the 80s (before drugs took his career during the early 90s).

Let's face it, in true footballing sense, Maradona without WC success would still be regarded as the best player in his era (better than Platini, Zico), just as Messi without the multiple CL and La Liga success, will still be regarded as the best player in this era (still better than Ronaldo). In true footballing sense, they are pretty much equal. It's Maradona 86 success and Napoli legacy, and Messi consistency and success at club football which put them in strong position for GOAT.

Not sure whom you're calling a fanboy here, or what is it exactly that you're calling a "pity", but you seem to agree with me on my main point that Maradona's international career that sets him apart from the rest is all about the 1986 world cup. Other than that there is nothing he did that Messi for example didn't do. Which is why I think the better way to compare the two in term of international contribution/performances is: Maradona was special in 1986 and Messi didn't have a tournament with Argentina as good as Maradona's 1986 world cup.. Instead of "Messi is poor with Argentina, while Maradona was great with Argentina".

IMO if you take 1986 out of Maradona's resume then Messi has already passed him on the international stage. Do you not agree with me on this?

As was pretty clear from my post, I was referencing Maradona's international career, not his World Cup performances, and the absurd suggestion that he flew under the radar until 1986. In 1982 he was fouled more times than any other player in the history of the cup. In 1986 he was fouled twice as many times as any other player in the history of the cup, before or since.

As for 1990, he was one of the best attacking players at the tournament. His ankle was buggered and he didn't excel in any way like 1986, but he still created a hell of a lot of chances for his team-mates and was, again, the victim of the sort of negative and tactical fouling that was routine within the game at that time. In fact there are a number of parallels between 1990 and 2014. In both tournaments Argentina were stodgy, relying on a solid defensive approach combined with the occasional flash of genius from their talisman, before being overcome narrowly by a German side that deserved to win the trophy. Wiki-based analyses apart, I have no idea where the evidence is for Messi "playing much better" in 2014 than Maradona did in 1990.

That's true, but at least Messi in 2014 was more influential in the group stages, guiding Argentina (single-handedly) to the top of the group, while Argentina struggled to qualify in 1990 and only qualified as best 3rd (they even lost to 10-men, eventually 9-men, Cameroon, like I said earlier), and Maradona didn't score any goal in the whole competition, and he even missed a penalty in the shootout against Yugoslavia.

Now back to his other international performances. Let's now review Argentina's record in Copa America during Maradona's years:

1979: knocked out in the group stages.
1983: knocked out in the group stages.
1987: finished 4th.
1989: finished 3rd.

Also in 1991, one year after the 1990 WC where Argentina reached the final with Maradona, Argentina actually won the 1991 Copa America quite convincingly, but Maradona did not play in that tournament. Make your own conclusions out of that.

 

[Bole Top]

just because someone is questioning certain myths about Maradona doesn't necessarly mean he's downplaying him. for me, he and Messi are without question the best ever and I wrote that several times here. still, I sometimes feel that it's almost forbidden to ask certain questions about Maradona while it's perfectly fine not only to downplay Messi's achievements (Xavi & Iniesta bullshit), but to openly mock him. if I ask why Maradona couldn't do shit in champions league, that means I'm downplaying past great and there are several reasonable explanations for him not being able to beat Spartak Moscow (!!!). But when Messi "fails" against Germany, I read this kind of stuff - "he needs to go outside of his comfort zone and establish himself once more, establish himself as being unparalleled no matter the circumstances or the environment he's playing in." it seems that Maradona has excuses for not even being able to reach group stage of CL, while Messi has to win the final no matter what. and when someone point to that, he's "dowplaying" Maradona, which is ridiculous.

 

[Danny1982]

just because someone is questioning certain myths about Maradona doesn't necessarly mean he's downplaying him. for me, he and Messi are without question the best ever and I wrote that several times here. still, I sometimes feel that it's almost forbidden to ask certain questions about Maradona while it's perfectly fine not only to downplay Messi's achievements (Xavi & Iniesta bullshit), but to openly mock him. if I ask why Maradona couldn't do shit in champions league, that means I'm downplaying past great and there are several reasonable explanations for him not being able to beat Spartak Moscow (!!!). But when Messi "fails" against Germany, I read this kind of stuff - "he needs to go outside of his comfort zone and establish himself once more, establish himself as being unparalleled no matter the circumstances or the environment he's playing in." it seems that Maradona has excuses for not even being able to reach group stage of CL, while Messi has to win the final no matter what. and when someone point to that, he's "dowplaying" Maradona, which is ridiculous.

Exactly. I've actually spent days arguing Maradona case in the past with people who thought football is as simple as "3 > 1".

Ironically, most people who are declaring it a major sin here to even mention anything negative about Maradona aren't even that fond of Maradona himself...

 

[B20]

People need to downplay Maradona a bit, it levels off the ridiculous romanticized mythical bollocks that's attached to his career. The shining example of this being the England game, where he broke the deadlock by cheating, and then scored running from the halfway line, where if we're being honest he was harldy challenged until he got to Shilton, it's the type of goal that if it were scored by Messi today would lead to a page of comments on how pathetic the defending was.

That's the reality. Maradona is probably the greatest footballer of all time, but feck me there's a fair amount of bollocks talked about him.

People also seem to ignore that he struggled a fair bit to adapt to Serie A for the first season or two.

 

[Balu]

People also seem to ignore that he struggled a fair bit to adapt to Serie A for the first season or two.

????? Many argue that 84/85, his first season in Italy, was actually individually his best and 1985 was the only year he won Serie A footballer of the year. At least check wiki before you make up nonsense to downplay his achievements. Napoli overall didn't get close to the top for various reasons in his first year, but it sure as hell wasn't because he struggled a fair bit individually.

 

[Balu]

just because someone is questioning certain myths about Maradona doesn't necessarly mean he's downplaying him. for me, he and Messi are without question the best ever and I wrote that several times here. still, I sometimes feel that it's almost forbidden to ask certain questions about Maradona while it's perfectly fine not only to downplay Messi's achievements (Xavi & Iniesta bullshit), but to openly mock him. if I ask why Maradona couldn't do shit in champions league, that means I'm downplaying past great and there are several reasonable explanations for him not being able to beat Spartak Moscow (!!!). But when Messi "fails" against Germany, I read this kind of stuff - "he needs to go outside of his comfort zone and establish himself once more, establish himself as being unparalleled no matter the circumstances or the environment he's playing in." it seems that Maradona has excuses for not even being able to reach group stage of CL, while Messi has to win the final no matter what. and when someone point to that, he's "dowplaying" Maradona, which is ridiculous.

You know that there wasn't a CL back then, right? And that Maradona had two shots at the European Cup. His first, he went out against a fantastic Real Madrid side that won 5 league titles in a row in Spain and 2 UEFA Cups. His 2nd shot was in 90/91 when he was still struggling with his ankle injury and already declined. He left midway through that season when his drug use became public. That's it. He won the UEFA Cup with Napoli though, which was back then a fantastic competition. Still the only international title Napoli ever won. Yeah, they went out on penalties against Spartak Moscow. No shame in that anyway, Spartak went on to beat Real Madrid in the next round, the gap between the big teams and the champions from smaller leagues was nowhere near as big as it is today and many Eastern European sides kept their star players and were competitive in Europe.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Maradona played more then 10 years in Europe, he has only self to blame for not achieving more. Yes, i know there was a rule back that limited number of foreign players at the club(was it only in Serie A or was it the same in Spain? although irrelevant) but if he was that good the biggest clubs would tear themself apart to getting him which obviously wasnt the case.

 

[Danny1982]

You know that there wasn't a CL back then, right? And that Maradona had two shots at the European Cup. His first, he went out against a fantastic Real Madrid side that won 5 league titles in a row in Spain and 2 UEFA Cups. His 2nd shot was in 90/91 when he was still struggling with his ankle injury and already declined. He left midway through that season when his drug use became public. That's it. He won the UEFA Cup with Napoli though, which was back then a fantastic competition. Still the only international title Napoli ever won. Yeah, they went out on penalties against Spartak Moscow. No shame in that anyway, Spartak went on to beat Real Madrid in the next round, the gap between the big teams and the champions from smaller leagues was nowhere near as big as it is today and many Eastern European sides kept their star players and were competitive in Europe.

If I made this post about Messi I'd be called a "pitiful Messi fanboy looking for excuses".

- 2nd tier competition = "fantastic competition!"?
- "No shame in going out on penalties"! Really? Can we apply that to.....
- Real Madrid are the best ever that nobody could beat them! Except Spartak...?
...

That doesn't change the facts though. He got two chances in the champions league (which is as many chances as a player gets to play in a world cup at his peak), the reality, he went out in the first round in the first one, and in the second round in the second one. (The only team Napoli beat in the equivalent of the champions league is Újpesti Dózsa). Why are you taking offence when people mention that fact? Isn't this the same as what some are doing now with Messi? "He couldn't win the World Cup or Copa America for Argentina and that's a fact and no excuses are allowed!"?

When it's said about Messi, then it's just "objective high level analysis supported by facts". And when it's said about Maradona it's "pitiful fanboyism that's sad to see". You have made more excuses for Maradona now in this post than the Messi fanboys made for Messi in the last 10 pages.

 

[PickledRed]

The danger of these debates is that they become glibly pedantic with a disproportionate focus on amazing footballers' shortcomings. It then reads as churlish point scoring.

 

[Balu]

- 2nd tier competition = "fantastic competition!"?

The UEFA Cup wasn't a 2nd tier competition. What gave you that impression? Imagine the UEFA Cup today if only the league winners played in the CL. Would you really call that a 2nd tier competition? Your whole argument is based on the structure of club football today, when it was totally different in the 80's.

It's utter nonsense to compare Napoli's 3 European Cup ties with Barca's hundreds of games in the CL. It makes no sense at all. The same isn't true for comparing the World Cup though, because it's more or less the same format and a similar situation for both players.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

just because someone is questioning certain myths about Maradona doesn't necessarly mean he's downplaying him. for me, he and Messi are without question the best ever and I wrote that several times here. still, I sometimes feel that it's almost forbidden to ask certain questions about Maradona while it's perfectly fine not only to downplay Messi's achievements (Xavi & Iniesta bullshit), but to openly mock him. if I ask why Maradona couldn't do shit in champions league, that means I'm downplaying past great and there are several reasonable explanations for him not being able to beat Spartak Moscow (!!!). But when Messi "fails" against Germany, I read this kind of stuff - "he needs to go outside of his comfort zone and establish himself once more, establish himself as being unparalleled no matter the circumstances or the environment he's playing in." it seems that Maradona has excuses for not even being able to reach group stage of CL, while Messi has to win the final no matter what. and when someone point to that, he's "dowplaying" Maradona, which is ridiculous.

Precisely my point. And I don't even care about who is better. I can't claim anyone is the best ever while keeping a straight face when I haven't watched past players. But this idea that the older players have no blights on their careers is hilarious. I mean it's not as if maradona was a druggie, cheated/hand balled for his single biggest achievement, never lit up the European cup, didn't succeed at Barcelona. It was all perfect. Everything he did well was outside his so called comfort zone and everything he did badly.

You know that there wasn't a CL back then, right? And that Maradona had two shots at the European Cup. His first, he went out against a fantastic Real Madrid side that won 5 league titles in a row in Spain and 2 UEFA Cups. His 2nd shot was in 90/91 when he was still struggling with his ankle injury and already declined. He left midway through that season when his drug use became public. That's it. He won the UEFA Cup with Napoli though, which was back then a fantastic competition. Still the only international title Napoli ever won. Yeah, they went out on penalties against Spartak Moscow. No shame in that anyway, Spartak went on to beat Real Madrid in the next round, the gap between the big teams and the champions from smaller leagues was nowhere near as big as it is today and many Eastern European sides kept their star players and were competitive in Europe.

No shame in losing to a great Germany side in a World Cup final. No shame in losing to Chile on penalties.

Point is that they've all had disappointments. But one's career, at least here, is built up as near perfection and the downsides are just things that happen where theres no shame, and the other FAILS and STRUGGLES TO INSPIRE.

1985 was the only year he won Serie A footballer of the year.

Have to ask, why is this?

 

[Balu]

Have to ask, why is this?

No idea. It's a bit of an odd award. Usually I don't like using awards to prove a point anyway, but in this case it clearly shows that he at least didn't struggle at all.

No shame in losing to a great Germany side in a World Cup final. No shame in losing to Chile on penalties.

Of course not, I won't argue against that . What I find really annoying in this discussion is that the people defending Messi all of a sudden start to make nonsense up to discredit Maradona's individual performance level. He performed to his best for club and country in a way Messi so far simply hasn't. Not sure what's so difficult about accepting that. If you believe that Messi's club career overshadows everything Maradona has done, fair enough. But downplaying the level Maradona consistently played on for Napoli to have an excuse for Messi not performing to his best for Argentina is stupid. Losing 1 out of 6 games in the European Cup and 1 penalty shootout doesn't change that.

 

[Snake Plissken]

No idea. It's a bit of an odd award. Usually I don't like using awards to prove a point anyway, but in this case it clearly shows that he at least didn't struggle at all.


Of course not, I won't argue against that . What I find really annoying in this discussion is that the people defending Messi all of a sudden start to make nonsense up to discredit Maradona's individual performance level. He performed to his best for club and country in a way Messi so far simply hasn't. Not sure what's so difficult about accepting that. If you believe that Messi's club career overshadows everything Maradona has done, fair enough. But downplaying the level Maradona consistently played on for Napoli to have an excuse for Messi not performing to his best for Argentina is stupid. Losing 1 out of 6 games in the European Cup and 1 penalty shootout doesn't change that.

But it's not true is it Balu? Maradona didn't perform to a high level consistently for Argentina. That's what they're gripe is with, nonsense like that. He's getting the benefit of the doubt where as Messi's getting no leeway at all.

 

[Balu]

But it's not true is it Balu? Maradona didn't perform to a high level consistently for Argentina. That's what they're gripe is with, nonsense like that. He's getting the benefit of the doubt where as Messi's getting no leeway at all.

Maradona clearly reached his individual peak for both club and country. Messi hasn't yet. No idea what you're trying to say? And I'm actually one of the few who defended Messi after the World Cup last summer and said it was okay that he won the Golden Ball. His performances were scrutinised in an unfair way. Messi has been great for Argentina and during the qualifiers for the last World Cup it almost looked like we might see the best of him for the nationalteam. We didn't though, he was great like quite a few before him. He wasn't exceptional and that's what he should be at least once in an important tournament.

 

[Brwned]

And Brwned before you ever start, I'm not saying Maradona played pressure free, but to me the suggestion he dealt with the same pressure Messi does given their respective circumstances if laughable.

It's very easy to say that having lived through none of Maradona's career. Unless you've bothered to read boatloads of media commentary, fan reaction etc. around that time then you can't possibly say what kind of pressure Maradona operated under. I can't either but a quick search suggests he carried the weight of a nation for years and had the spotlight on him from a very, very young age. Yet somehow you're able to comment on it with unwavering certainty? Surely you can see that a large part of your certainty comes from what Chester talked about earlier?

He was right there, though - during the time I myself was most impressionable, and passionate about football. That no doubt matters a great deal.

I can easily see myself in the Messi camp, so to speak, with Maradona playing the part that Pelé played for me. When I was a snotty brat I dismissed Pelé rather brutally, because he was supposed to be the greatest - whereas I knew, of course, that Maradona and nobody but Maradona deserved that title.

Now, as a fairly wise man, I realize that I was completely wrong about Pelé.

Maradona played more then 10 years in Europe, he has only self to blame for not achieving more. Yes, i know there was a rule back that limited number of foreign players at the club(was it only in Serie A or was it the same in Spain? although irrelevant) but if he was that good the biggest clubs would tear themself apart to getting him which obviously wasnt the case.

Brilliant.

You know that Maradona was barred by his home country from leaving Argentina until after the 1982 World Cup, despite being subject of a world record fee at the age of 20 - a full two years before the tournament kicked off? Club football was a completely different world back then. Superclubs didn't exist. The top players didn't all gravitate to the same few teams at the top. Using that as a stick to beat Maradona with is just...

But this idea that the older players have no blights on their careers is hilarious.

Can you find examples of people who think this? There are lots of Messi fanboys but no Maradona fanboys as far as I can tell, which makes sense given fanboyism is something limited to the younger generation and anyone who does consider Maradona their childhood sporting hero isn't quite as attached to the subject any longer. I don't think you'll find anyone here who's advocating or defending Maradona that hasn't already pointed out that he had a pretty terrible first World Cup, for example.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

You know that Maradona was barred by his home country from leaving Argentina until after the 1982 World Cup, despite being subject of a world record fee at the age of 20 - a full two years before the tournament kicked off? Club football was a completely different world back then. Superclubs didn't exist. The top players didn't all gravitate to the same few teams at the top. Using that as a stick to beat Maradona with is just...

dont see the purpose of the first part of the post, i assume its response for "lack of interest from top clubs", i thought its pretty obvious on what part of his career does that relate(post Barca).

And while football was different back then you still had top clubs(Juve, Bayern, Liverpool, Real etc.) and i dont know whats the definition of a super club but if Milan from that time isnt a super club i dont know which club is.

 

[simonhch]

Best two players ever, Maradona and Messi, separated by a gulf in charisma. Messi is a phenomenon, Maradona was an icon. Both just incredible. Messi really needs to perform at the top level while high on cocaine before he achieves the same legendary status.

 

[Snake Plissken]

I lived through a short portion of Maradona's career Brwned. And reading media reports or whatever is pointless because that's merely the writers perception. I prefer to make my own mind up by looking at the facts and the fact is, his big moment for Argentina was 86 and he wasn't under big pressure, as people say they weren't favourites or anything so how could he be under that type of pressure? People didn't expect him to lead Argentina to glory, he wasn't constantly being compared to a player of a previous generation of Argentinean's. You can't have it both ways.

If anything Maradona's career says he only excelled as a big fish in a small pond. Maybe not having that type of pressure is what he needed to excel.

 

[Brwned]

dont see the purpose of the first part of the post, i assume its response for "lack of interest from top clubs", i thought its pretty obvious on what part of his career does that relate(post Barca).

And while football was different back then you still had top clubs(Juve, Bayern, Liverpool, Real etc.) and i dont know whats the definition of a super club but if Milan from that time isnt a super club i dont know which club is.

I thought you were joking. You're really making a serious point about there being a lack of real interest in Maradona from the European elite? That's incredible. It's like someone in 30 years' time saying Messi couldn't really have been that special otherwise surely someone would have done their utmost to sign him from Barca.

When he was subject to that world record bid from Barcelona there was interest from every top club in Europe. You can find articles from that time to support that. Unless you think he failed to live up to his potential then surely it goes without saying that there was continued interest from every top club in Europe throughout the 80s?

I lived through a short portion of Maradona's career Brwned. And reading media reports or whatever is utterly pointless because that's merely the writers perception. Fact is, his big moment for Argentina was 86 and he wasn't under pressure, as people say they weren't favourites or anything so how could he be under big pressure? You can't have it both ways.

There's no factual, statistical way to measure the pressure he was under so surely it's all a case of perception, and a prominent sports writer's perception is surely as valid as anyone's? Your fact there is applicable to Messi too. Messi's Argentina weren't favourites either. By the time it got to the final Maradona had already announced himself as the best player in the world and the star of the tournament. He was under as much pressure as anyone at the time. Or if we're talking about a different kind of pressure - e.g. the pressure of being the favourite - then surely the pressure he was under in '82 is equal to anything Messi's been subjected to in his Argentina career? He was the heir to Pelé's throne playing for the reigning World Champions. They were surely bigger favourites then than Messi's Argentina have ever been?

 

[Snake Plissken]

Best two players ever, Maradona and Messi, separated by a gulf in charisma. Messi is a phenomenon, Maradona was an icon. Both just incredible. Messi really needs to perform at the top level while high on cocaine before he achieves the same legendary status.

I think that plays into it a lot. Maradona's a huge personality, an entertainer off the pitch as much as on it. People always love those types, Ali being the best example of the ultimate entertainer, the best fighter in the world topped off with the fact he was incredibly charismatic.

Edit, to be clear I'm not saying that's why people prefer Maradona, his ability alone is enough to mean that he's worthy of being viewed as the greatest footballer of all time, I'm just saying long term people tend to remember guys with big personalities.

 

[Brwned]

Here's an article from a neutral country on the day of the final, with the focus all on Maradona.

All that can be said about Diego Armando Maradona has been said.

All except what Franz Beckenbauer needs to know today: How does one stop Maradona?

If the coach of the West German soccer team could punch that question into the computer and get even the slightest hint in return, he might feel more confident about the outcome of this afternoon's World Cup championship match.

There is absolutely no doubt that Maradona is the key to the match. Foil him and you foil Argentina.

So far, no one has been able to do that. Maradona has scored five of his team's 11 goals and has set up at least four of the other six.

It was Maradona's goal that earned Argentina its tie with Italy. It was his two goals that sank England in the quarterfinals. And it was another two by him that knocked out Belgium in the semifinals.

Belgian goalkeeper Jean-Marie Pfaff put it best when he said: "Maradona was the difference. Without Maradona, Argentina would have gone home much sooner."

Added Belgian Coach Guy Thys: "We marked (guarded) Maradona well in the first half of the match. Two players had to do that because we do not have one player capable of marking him. Then, in the second half, he got free and scored two goals."

English Coach Bobby Robson had been similarly frustrated in trying to stop Maradona in the quarterfinals. Asked why he had not assigned a particular player to guard Maradona, Robson almost became violent.

"We didn't do it because it was our decision not to," he snapped angrily. "Maradona would destroy man-to-man marking. Look at the second goal. He can go past anybody. He's everybody's responsibility.

"We did not want to disturb our back four. We did not want to disrupt our defense. It was the nearest man (to Maradona who had the responsibility of marking him). We had to get to him and work off him and give cover. That was the way to play Maradona."

Obviously, it was not.

Three different coaches have tried three different methods of keeping the Argentine star in check. None of the methods have worked.

Italy's Enzo Bearzot assigned Salvatore Bagni, Maradona's club teammate at Napoli (a team that purchased Maradona for about $8 million), to follow Maradona wherever he went. Maradona escaped for the briefest of moments and scored the goal that gave Argentina the tie.

England's Robson chose to use a zone defense, allowing the player nearest the 5-5, 156-pound Maradona to harry him and the rest of the defense to provide cover. Maradona made a mockery of that idea.

Belgium's Thys put two men on Maradona. That plan fared no better than the previous two.

So, having studied these options, what can Beckenbauer do today? Judging by the West German coach's comments after his team's victory over France in the semifinals, Maradona can expect the closest kind of attention.

"If you have an opponent like (France's Michel) Platini who is a superstar, then of course you have to mark him closely," Beckenbauer said. "You have to. I mean, that's our style. The Brazilians, they don't need it; they are flexible enough. But we Germans, we have to play our game. So we have to mark closely. It's our character, our mentality."

Beckenbauer has not indicated which player will be given the responsibility of marking Maradona, but there seem to be only two logical choices.

One is defender Hans-Peter Briegel, a former decathlete who has experience in playing against Maradona in the Italian League. But Briegel, although powerful, might not have reactions quick enough to deal with Maradona's instantaneous changes in speed and direction, the quick cuts and body feints that leave defenders looking both helpless and foolish.

Beckenbauer's more likely choice is midfielder Lothar Matthaus, who at 25 is the same age as Maradona, is five years younger than Briegel and is physically just as agile his Argentine opponent.

West Germany used Wolfgang Rolff to guard Platini in the win over France, but Rolff seems to have nowhere near the speed to keep up with Maradona, let alone contain him.

"Maradona has clockwork in his legs, and we need somebody who can follow him around," Beckenbauer said.

But there is one other factor to consider. Apart from the national prestige his country would gain by winning the World Cup, Maradona also has the chance to add to his personal list of achievements.

He has scored five goals in this World Cup and seven overall in his World Cup career. Two more goals today would give him the 1986 tournament scoring title over England's Gary Lineker and would also make him Argentina's all-time leading scorer in World Cup play.

The man who holds that record is Guillermo Stabile, who scored eight goals in the first World Cup in 1930 and later became his country's coach.

Maradona could aim no higher.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I thought you were joking. You're really making a serious point about there being a lack of real interest in Maradona from the European elite? That's incredible. It's like someone in 30 years' time saying Messi couldn't really have been that special otherwise surely someone would have done their utmost to sign him from Barca.

When he was subject to that world record bid from Barcelona there was interest from every top club in Europe. You can find articles from that time to support that. Unless you think he failed to live up to his potential then surely it goes without saying that there was continued interest from every top club in Europe throughout the 80s?

No its not the same as Messi plays for one of the best teams in the world while Maradona played for Napoli and Sevilla....

And again you with pre-Barca period....why he ended up playing for Napoli after Barca? Maybe there was interest in him after i dont know, if there was interest from top clubs and he decided to go/stay in Napoli because of money, less pressure or just the fact they didnt care about his drug problems it just confirms that he has only self to blame for not achieving more in Europe.

If we are nitpicking Messi's international career i think its fair to do the same with other GOAT candidates and question their "weak" spots.

 

[Brwned]

No its not the same as Messi plays for one of the best teams in the world while Maradona played for Napoli and Sevilla....

And again you with pre-Barca period....why he ended up playing for Napoli after Barca? Maybe there was interest in him after i dont know, if there was interest from top clubs and he decided to go/stay in Napoli because of money, less pressure or just the fact they didnt care about his drug problems it just confirms that he has only self to blame for not achieving more in Europe.

If we are nitpicking Messi's international career i think its fair to do the same with other GOAT candidates and question their "weak" spots.

I agree. Maradona has weak spots that are up for debate. What you're talking about here isn't a weak spot at all and sums up the kind of ignorance that underpins the unfortunate point-scoring contest these "debates" become. Honestly, if you really doubt the top clubs were interested in Maradona then you shouldn't be taking part in a discussion involving him. You might as well be having a discussion about Giuseppe Meazza or something.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I agree. Maradona has weak spots that are up for debate. What you're talking about here isn't a weak spot at all and sums up the kind of ignorance that underpins the unfortunate point-scoring contest these "debates" become. Honestly, if you really doubt the top clubs were interested in Maradona then you shouldn't be taking part in a discussion involving him. You might as well be having a discussion about Giuseppe Meazza or something.

If there were interest in him from top clubs and he decided to go to Napoli or stay in Napoli he can only blame himself for not achieving more in Europe and thats all im saying.

 

[Snake Plissken]

I thought you were joking. You're really making a serious point about there being a lack of real interest in Maradona from the European elite? That's incredible. It's like someone in 30 years' time saying Messi couldn't really have been that special otherwise surely someone would have done their utmost to sign him from Barca.

When he was subject to that world record bid from Barcelona there was interest from every top club in Europe. You can find articles from that time to support that. Unless you think he failed to live up to his potential then surely it goes without saying that there was continued interest from every top club in Europe throughout the 80s?



There's no factual, statistical way to measure the pressure he was under so surely it's all a case of perception, and a prominent sports writer's perception is surely as valid as anyone's? Your fact there is applicable to Messi too. Messi's Argentina weren't favourites either. By the time it got to the final Maradona had already announced himself as the best player in the world and the star of the tournament. He was under as much pressure as anyone at the time. Or if we're talking about a different kind of pressure - e.g. the pressure of being the favourite - then surely the pressure he was under in '82 is equal to anything Messi's been subjected to in his Argentina career? He was the heir to Pelé's throne playing for the reigning World Champions. They were surely bigger favourites then than Messi's Argentina have ever been?

Exactly it's perception, so I can't accept some media articles from 86 as some kind of proof of how much pressure Maradona had to deal with. Anyway 82? I'm not sure about that but either way it's irrelevant since he failed. If he had won it in 82 I'd have said yeah if there was big pressure he obviously rose above it, but he didn't so it's null and void as far as I'm concerned.

And yeah, there was pressure in the 86 final, but again, I'm not saying there wasn't pressure, I'm saying he wasn't dealing with the pressure Messi has with the constant comparison's to a guy who won the World cup, scrutiny from his own fans, the never ending talk of how he'll never put himself up there until he 'singlehandedly' wins a world cup. Added to that Messi's in an Argentina team which people seem to over-rate slightly due to a surplus of attacking talent, none of whom actually have any chemistry, even in the 2014 world cup, hardly any chemistry which is why they were grafting for narrow victories, I think that false perception of the side has worked against Messi too. I'm sure this will be labelled as an excuse which will prove Danny's point about people giving Maradona leeway and giving Messi absolutely none at all, but hopefully people learn to open their minds and actually look at what happens on the pitch instead of just over simplying everything and saying "yeah Argentina has Aguero, Di Maria, Higuain and Pastore, Messi didn't score many and they didn't win so why's that? he's can't do it away from Barcelona", which is the over simplified nonsense I usually read.

Anyway Messi isn't above criticism of course, I was disappointed with how quickly he faded in the World Cup final, but in that Copa America final I had a lot of sympathy for him because truth is he never got any space or service to make an impact, and ultimately it was his serial bottler team mate that let the side down.

 

[Blackwidow]

Guido Buchwald mainly got famous for his worldclass performance mancovering Maradona out of the match in the World Cup 1990. It was the performance of his life.

-----------------------

For me Messi lacks this fighting spirit - to scratch and bite when things do not run right. To shout, to motivate others - to be the leader. They gave him the captain band and the responsibility... I often have the feeling that this is just too much for him. Actually that is ok as it should be team and others should carry that and share the responsibilities.

 

[Brwned]

If there were interest in him from top clubs and he decided to go to Napoli or stay in Napoli he can only blame himself for not achieving more in Europe and thats all im saying.

I think (or hope?) you're one of the few people that think his smaller trophy haul due to playing for a smaller club is something that should be held against him. Trophy hauls are not the only way to gauge success. Maradona's stint at Napoli was exceptional, as was most of his career. If you look at it purely from a trophy perspective then you might call his time at Argentinos Juniors an abject failure given he failed to win one title in his 5 years there. On closer inspection the story is a little different.

Let's took a look just at the Campeonato Metropolitano - one half of the Argentinian league system, which began in '67 and ended just after Maradona left. Argentinos Juniors were among the weakest teams in the league from its inception, featuring in the bottom five in 7 of the 9 seasons before Maradona started playing for them, with their highest finish in '73 when they finished 10th. Immediately after that they finished 3rd from bottom in '74, and then joint-bottom in '75. Maradona broke into the team in '76 as a 15 year old, understandably playing a bit-part role. They finished 2nd last again. He then established himself in the following season and they finished 9th, their highest position in the table since the competition's inception. They then finished 5th in '78, joint-2nd in '79 and outright 2nd in '80. He was top scorer in all three of these seasons and because of that holds the record for the most top scorer awards in that competition. In other words he took a team that was literally battling relegation for the best part of a decade before he broke into the team and he transformed them into title contenders for the first time in their history.

That's not mythology or nostalgia. It's not adding gloss to a Maradona achievement which would otherwise be dismissed as a minor achievement for any other player. It's genuinely the most significant period of success in that club's history up until that point, and the link between his establishment in the team and their instant progress is undeniable. Depending on how you want to paint that period of his career, or his tournament in '86, or his achievements with Napoli, it can all sound a bit fairy-tale like - but that's not nostalgia, that's how it felt for fans of these clubs and his national team at that time. That's how it felt for international football fans too, if you choose to believe the various first-hand reports from people on here or elsewhere.

The thing is, the same is true of Messi now. When people are painting fairytale stories of Maradona's career that doesn't mean they think Messi's career isn't full of fairy tales already. It is. As B19 said earlier in this thread, it felt like 2015 was the beginning of a new chapter for him. His goal against Bilbao felt pretty magical when watching it, even on the tv. I watched the game against Betis when he broke Muller's ridiculous goalscoring record and it certainly felt like a fairytale then. 86 goals and both of them were beautifully crafted, trademark Messi goals - the solo run and the brilliant combination play with Iniesta. Though I suppose if we want to play the nitpicking game then you could say the defending for both goals was awful. No-one even tried to tackle him for the first one for christ's sake. Either that or special players have a habit of making things look very easy. Who knows.

 

[Brwned]

And yeah, there was pressure in the 86 final, but again, I'm not saying there wasn't pressure, I'm saying he wasn't dealing with the pressure Messi has with the constant comparison's to a guy who won the World cup, scrutiny from his own fans, the never ending talk of how he'll never put himself up there until he 'singlehandedly' wins a world cup.

How do you know this, though? I've already given you evidence that he was compared to Pelé from a South American newspaper when he just 22. No doubt he'd been compared to Pelé since not long after his debut at 15. There was certainly talk about him replicating Pelé's feat from '58 twenty years later, with the hope and expectation that he would light up the country in '78 at 20 years old. You'll find no shortage of people here who lived through that period to verify those claims either. Every great player was compared to O Rei, Pelé. He'd won 3 World Cups for christ's sake. At that time that was as good as it got. There's no reason whatsoever to think that didn't fuel unbelievable expectations or to think he didn't have that constantly hanging over his head in the same way Messi has Maradona. You just choose not to because you don't want to. There's nothing else supporting your viewpoint.

The same is true about national pressure. I suspect the kind of scrutiny Maradona faced following their unceremonious knockout against Brazil in '82 was more than Messi's ever faced, given the fact international football was just more important back then and of couse because they were the reigning champions. @antohan, fancy weighing in on the reaction to Maradona and Argentina in '82 and the kind of pressure and scrutiny he was under? The other South American article has already shown that before 1986 it was decided he owed it to the fans. If you choose to believe that is just the opinion of one lone South American journalist then that's your prerogative, but unless you can provide something to back up your claims that he didn't face that kind of pressure or that level of scrutiny then it looks like nothing more than what Chester said before.

In fact all of this fits perfectly into the picture he described, it's just the names have changed. He's admitted himself that he happily dismissed any comparisons to Pelé - further evidence of point #1, that he was regularly compared to a certain past great just the way Messi now is - without any real reasoning to back it up, he just knew that Maradona was the best. The narrative was already set, he just had to mould the different pieces together in whatever way they needed to be to tell that one story - Maradona is #1. That feels a lot like what you're doing now. For what it's worth, neither Messi or Maradona are my favourite. I probably prefer Beckenbauer to them both, actually, among one or two others. I'm not trying to point-score for either here. I really don't care about who's better. I just jump in when I think people are trying to denigrate the achievements of whatever player to celebrate their own. There's no reason for it to be that way.