Lionel Messi - Performances

I only have seen Maradona play live once - and that was when he already had ended his career and was massively overweight and probably deep in the drugs.



I would not want to compare them. Maradona has pressed his stamp on a football period. Messi does it now. But it just is not comparable as times have changed - especially the TV coverage and marketing.
 
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Regarding the HGH discussion etc, I always found it remarkable and a bit odd how the Barcelona players over the last 5-10 years have managed to maintain such high levels of fitness. Barcelona played a huge amount of games every season, and yet their players never seemed to tire or show fatigue, and very rarely got injured, despite them having a fairly small squad with little real rotation (compared with others).
 
I like Marcos's input in these debates because he's actually Argentinean, watched both players and is in a good position to bust some of the various Maradona myths that have come to light during the years. Even I wasn't aware of some of them until recently, like Napoli spending big at the time, my memory is hazy as I was very young but obviously much like the 86 Argentina side people like to talk about Napoli like they were a pub team too.

The big question here is... Marco's age! I saw Maradona play in Italy I even saw Maradona play and tie with Sporting in 89 (good times)

Well regardless of Marcos' age, if you use the criteria of Argentines who have seen both players, then Maradona wins by an enormous margin.

Speaking of ages and why this is such an important factor in making judgments, in my mind there are a few things that the younger generation on here should understand about how football has changed since the Maradona era:

1. In the 1980's and early 1990's, the world's most important/interesting league was the Italian Serie A. During this time period, it became the league where the world's top stars played.
2. Despite the fact that the top stars played there, each team had a limit of 3 foreign players on the field at any time. And by foreign, this is pre-EU days so foreign meant any non-Italian. So a Spaniard or Frenchman counted as a foreign player. So every team was basically Italians and 3 top stars - the better the team, the bigger the stars, so for instance late 80's Milan had the famous trio of Gullit, van Basten and Rijkjaard alongside some of the best Italian players of the period, which is why Milan was a dominant team in that era.
3. Because of the above foreign player limitations, it was possible for a team like Milan to dominate and be successful in domestic and international competitions, but there was a limit to how dominant they could be, because they could not buy all the players money could afford like today's top clubs can. Napoli also had their 3 foreigners, Maradona and the Brazilians Careca and Alemao. 4. At the time, Real Madrid and Barcelona were also two of the best clubs in the world, however, they were great mostly due to the fact that they monopolized the top Spanish players, and they bought selected top foreign stars. So while they were great, they did not dominate the game the way they do today.
5. Italy on the other hand was more divided in terms of the top Italian players, you had top Italians playing on Inter, Milan, Juventus, Napoli, Fiorentina, Sampdoria and others.
6. Squads in the other big leagues and big clubs in England, Germany, France and Portugal were predominantly domestic players.
7. The Champions' League didn't exist back then. Instead it was the European Cup, it was a home and away knock-out competition, and only the actual champion of each European league was invited. So unlike today where the big clubs are in the Champions' League every year, back then even a great player like Maradona only played in the European Cup twice.

The point of all this is basically that in the 1980's and early 1990's, the club game was significantly more balanced in terms of talent. The best clubs were only marginally better than the rest because they were able to 1) concentrate the domestic talent, and 2) acquire selected foreign stars. Also, there were less continental matches to play. Therefore trying to argue that Messi is better than Maradona because he won more Champions' Leagues and scored more goals and assists with Barcelona is apples and oranges. Maradona's Barcelona had some of the best Spanish players (at a time when the Spanish national team was not great), whereas Messi's Barcelona has players that can be regarded as the world's best in every single position. Maradona's Napoli just had probably 1 or 2 members of the Italian national team (I can't remember which ones, if any).

The control to this experiment is the international game, in which the balance of power cannot be as easily shifted by money. And this is where the massive differences in the club game that resulted from the Bosman ruling, the abolition of the foreign player limitation rule, and the globalization of the game bringing massive financial clout to the biggest clubs is manifesting itself most clearly. There have always been great players, but today's great players benefit from playing with other great players which makes the comparisons difficult. Messi, for all his greatness, has an arguably better array of companions in Argentina than Maradona ever did, but he cannot stand out and his moments of brilliance are far less frequent with Argentina that they are with Barcelona. That much has become abundantly clear.
 
The point of all this is basically that in the 1980's and early 1990's, the club game was significantly more balanced in terms of talent. The best clubs were only marginally better than the rest because they were able to 1) concentrate the domestic talent, and 2) acquire selected foreign stars. Also, there were less continental matches to play. Therefore trying to argue that Messi is better than Maradona because he won more Champions' Leagues and scored more goals and assists with Barcelona is apples and oranges. Maradona's Barcelona had some of the best Spanish players (at a time when the Spanish national team was not great), whereas Messi's Barcelona has players that can be regarded as the world's best in every single position. Maradona's Napoli just had probably 1 or 2 members of the Italian national team (I can't remember which ones, if any).

The control to this experiment is the international game, in which the balance of power cannot be as easily shifted by money. And this is where the massive differences in the club game that resulted from the Bosman ruling, the abolition of the foreign player limitation rule, and the globalization of the game bringing massive financial clout to the biggest clubs is manifesting itself most clearly. There have always been great players, but today's great players benefit from playing with other great players which makes the comparisons difficult. Messi, for all his greatness, has an arguably better array of companions in Argentina than Maradona ever did, but he cannot stand out and his moments of brilliance are far less frequent with Argentina that they are with Barcelona. That much has become abundantly clear.

The club game being more balanced back then only strengthens Messi's argument v Maradona. In a balanced league the side with the GOAT level player is obviously going to shine bright. Messi's doing it in the super-team era where you can go out and spend hundreds of millions collecting the best talent around.

Messi having to play more continental matches also speaks volumes of his consistency.

I hate the international argument because people try and make it far more simplistic than it actually is. It's no exaggeration to say that Higuain missed two sitters in both finals which could've seen Argentina win the World Cup and then followed it up with the Copa America. As it was they won neither. Had those chances been took we then look at the international stage and say Messi has won the World Cup and Copa America and has also scored more goals for Argentina than Maradona ever did. The case would then be closed in the eyes of pretty much every sane person. I also look at recent Argentine national teams and I struggle to remember them actually being coached well. I struggle to remember the last time I watched an Argentina match and saw them have a midfield and not some insane end to end match that their shit defence (Rojo(no offence) and Demichelis, really?!) eventually f*cks up or you watch Messi dance past a few people and play it into Lavezzi and well, that's the move over right there. It's fine to say Messi's had better teammates for Argentina but then you look at the system and it's a clusterf*ck. Their manager at the 2010 World Cup genuinely thought Thomas Muller was a ball-boy ffs.

I've never understood the overemphasis placed on international football either. It's a month tournament once every 2/4 years where any number of problems can derail your chances immediately. Where geography dictates how good an international career you'll have (Best, Weah, Dalglish, Bale/Giggs...). I understand the sentimentality behind international football but I've not yet reached the stage where I grasp the argument on a purely football/quality related basis. I don't understand why it can been seen as greater (again, in football terms) to win a tournament in which you need to play Iran or Jamaica to progress as opposed to winning the pinnacle of European club football beating the champions of every league on the way and beating teams which have spent millions upon millions to get where they are as opposed to beating international teams made up on the fortune or misfortune of their geographical location.
 
http://www.ole.com.ar/copa-america-2015-argentina/titulo_0_1388261180.html

Editorial from the biggest Argentina newspaper

The team did not give the size in another final. Mainly they captain Messi, who wandered around the court. And watch out: this time it was not the powerful Germany but Chile. "It's a karma, torture," Mascherano said. Even when?

No more excuses. Enough, please. A little respect for those people who embraced the TV or came as he could and spent what not to see thousands of Chileans Nacional de Chile. Nothing. We must apologize, head down as Messi knows how to do perfectly, and give forward. Clenching for next time be more like Mascherano team. It is misplaced the captain's armband. Over with. The best player in the world is not represented in the important moments. His performance yesterday was directly outrageous. There are times you can play well, sometimes not. But one can never walk and walk away while fellow fret peeled. Be the best not only gives rights. Also, obligations. This was a great opportunity to have a rematch of what was the World Cup final in Brazil, that they also lost, but against giant Germany. This time it was a painful defeat on penalties to Chile, but that's not the worst. What hurts is the feeling that leaves a bitter selection. Bitter bitterness and other. Mascherano, Biglia, the zafan defenders. But we lacked up. Bah, let spinning. We lacked Messi. And Messi without the idea, because there was no idea of playing in the final that had anything to do with what the rest of the Cup was attempted, Argentina was much like the team that Sabella tried to mend for combat in World . Strongly defended, Chile sought but not worried. So there is no mess. It is later. The idea Martino can be very interesting but these are the times when you have to hold it. For if we loosen difficult, are not as deep convictions. A ideas, in all areas, the running men. And there are men who make the grade in the final, where it counts, and others not. Cut the ball, say Coco Basile. Argentina had hardly ever ball control, had no movement, it did not manage the game. Nothing at all. And she showed him the courage to bank the zero on the defensive. He had the conviction to feel superior and want to win the final. This defeat hurts different than the World. It is not so important, of course. But this time the sadness was because they got out of hand a great success for lack of efficacy in situations generated. This time we spent the worst thing that can happen to an Argentine team. He had character. He did not play the final with the authority that they are convinced play to win. If both weigh the fact of not winning anything, please turn the page and look at life with joy they have. All the pressure, respect and fear that had we said the Chilean, who perceived it in the streets, on the court changed his shirt. To all who did endurance in Santiago, Buenos Aires or in any corner of the world that a soccer team jersey sets, no need to apologize. As he apologizes Mascherano on the verge of tears. But it serves the forgiveness he left everything on the court.

Another disappointment, a new anguish seizes the selection. Again we paste the crossbar and stayed with tears, while others go crazy with happiness. It is an unthinkable cruelty this end, this end. Karma, curse, stigma, the word you want. But when your best player, the best in the world, look down and swallow it wants the land, hiding in the subway that leads to some distant, low place in a nameless station and stands there looking over and over Once the train comes and goes ... The train passed over in a final. It's time to accept the problem and make strong decisions. Congratulations, Chile. Another time, Argentina. Hopefully.
 
@Sammyjunn

i already stated messi do have a more prolonged period of success. i don't see the data you provided contradicts to my statement. moreover as mentioned by some others here already the then european cup only entertained the league champions across europe. maradona didn't have that attendance rate as messi do. despite of this i would still believe an academy boy would have more consistency than a street ganster anyway.

about the touches, this is not just about messi but an overall phenomenon between the modern footballers and elder generations. not just maradona but his fellow footballers of his generation (or even the elder one) did have better touches than modern footballers. this is not about that "oh, those good old days" but i can see two reasons why there is a difference:

1. the turf is in a much better condition than in the old days in general.

elder generations were required to play under some very rough conditions and they spent more effort to gain control of the ball. of those generations of players you could see the ball had became part of their body, especially those came from brazil. socrats, eda, falcao... etc all have very nice touches you can't even find from any modern footballers. maradona's just on the tip

2. modern footballers mainly come from academy. they were taught how to play football in a specific way that as a result of this differences between individuals have been diminished.

in one particular occasion i watched a barca game several seasons ago. that should be around that period they filled in all players from la masia. there was a screen shot taken from a vertical angle by the sky camera of the stadium. when the ball was moved around the whole pitch between the barca players as they used to do their tiki taka, i couldn't even tell who was who. i couldn't distinguish who was messi, who was iniesta, xavi, pedro... so and so. all their touches are very mechanical unlike those elder generations whom played football in a more artistic way
 
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some stat* about messi in major tournaments.

year
tournament age goals result of argentina
2006 world cup 18 1 quarter final
2007 copa amer 19 2 1st runner up
2010 world cup 23 0 quarter final
2011 copa amer 24 0 quarter final
2014 world cup 27 4 1st runner up
2015 copa amer 28 1 1st runner up

* a direct copy from internet. accuracy hasn't been checked

i don't blame messi for the failure of argentina in the just finished copa america tournament. martino is the one to be responsible. nonetheless you really can't say messi is the guy who can carry his country in big stage however.
 
Regarding the HGH discussion etc, I always found it remarkable and a bit odd how the Barcelona players over the last 5-10 years have managed to maintain such high levels of fitness. Barcelona played a huge amount of games every season, and yet their players never seemed to tire or show fatigue, and very rarely got injured, despite them having a fairly small squad with little real rotation (compared with others).
I think they do far less running than other teams due to the sheer amount of possession they get in a game.
 
Regarding the HGH discussion etc, I always found it remarkable and a bit odd how the Barcelona players over the last 5-10 years have managed to maintain such high levels of fitness. Barcelona played a huge amount of games every season, and yet their players never seemed to tire or show fatigue, and very rarely got injured, despite them having a fairly small squad with little real rotation (compared with others).
There were clear signs of fatigue in 12/13 and 13/14.
 
I think they do far less running than other teams due to the sheer amount of possession they get in a game.

Yeah true, although their off-the-ball work rate and pressure was fantastic, and they arguably even popularised that style of play/philosophy amongst top teams in recent years.

There were clear signs of fatigue in 12/13 and 13/14.

Perhaps - I wont claim to have watched every Barca game, its more just the general perception I get with them.
 
Messi walks most of the time during matches, it's what allows him to not get that tired with the accumulation of them. In recent years many of their players have had their fair share of injuries and fitness issues.
 
Err no wait, you're not the Arsenal supporter.

I did once wear an Arsenal scarf for about thirty minutes whilst drunk before realizing what it was, though - so there's that. And I did - once, only once I regret to say - shag an Arsenal supporter who was considerably better looking than Wenger. I think. The details are somewhat blurry - but I still regret not getting her number.
 
Messi walks most of the time during matches, it's what allows him to not get that tired with the accumulation of them. In recent years many of their players have had their fair share of injuries and fitness issues.

I like that, personally.

Seeing him seemingly not arsed, just sort of half-jogging about the place.

My mum, who deserves to be mentioned in a Caf thread, has made two observations about football players I remember to this day:

(non-chronologically):

* When we played Barca in the 2011 CL final she concluded that Messi wasn't anything to worry about, as the wee bugger didn't seem interested in the match at all.

* When England played Argentina in the 1986 WC she concluded that Maradona wasn't anything to worry about, as the wee bugger didn't seem interested in the match at all.

I don't know whether that says anything, but I put it out there.
 
http://www.ole.com.ar/copa-america-2015-argentina/titulo_0_1388261180.html

Editorial from the biggest Argentina newspaper

The team did not give the size in another final. Mainly they captain Messi, who wandered around the court. And watch out: this time it was not the powerful Germany but Chile. "It's a karma, torture," Mascherano said. Even when?

No more excuses. Enough, please. A little respect for those people who embraced the TV or came as he could and spent what not to see thousands of Chileans Nacional de Chile. Nothing. We must apologize, head down as Messi knows how to do perfectly, and give forward. Clenching for next time be more like Mascherano team. It is misplaced the captain's armband. Over with. The best player in the world is not represented in the important moments. His performance yesterday was directly outrageous. There are times you can play well, sometimes not. But one can never walk and walk away while fellow fret peeled. Be the best not only gives rights. Also, obligations. This was a great opportunity to have a rematch of what was the World Cup final in Brazil, that they also lost, but against giant Germany. This time it was a painful defeat on penalties to Chile, but that's not the worst. What hurts is the feeling that leaves a bitter selection. Bitter bitterness and other. Mascherano, Biglia, the zafan defenders. But we lacked up. Bah, let spinning. We lacked Messi. And Messi without the idea, because there was no idea of playing in the final that had anything to do with what the rest of the Cup was attempted, Argentina was much like the team that Sabella tried to mend for combat in World . Strongly defended, Chile sought but not worried. So there is no mess. It is later. The idea Martino can be very interesting but these are the times when you have to hold it. For if we loosen difficult, are not as deep convictions. A ideas, in all areas, the running men. And there are men who make the grade in the final, where it counts, and others not. Cut the ball, say Coco Basile. Argentina had hardly ever ball control, had no movement, it did not manage the game. Nothing at all. And she showed him the courage to bank the zero on the defensive. He had the conviction to feel superior and want to win the final. This defeat hurts different than the World. It is not so important, of course. But this time the sadness was because they got out of hand a great success for lack of efficacy in situations generated. This time we spent the worst thing that can happen to an Argentine team. He had character. He did not play the final with the authority that they are convinced play to win. If both weigh the fact of not winning anything, please turn the page and look at life with joy they have. All the pressure, respect and fear that had we said the Chilean, who perceived it in the streets, on the court changed his shirt. To all who did endurance in Santiago, Buenos Aires or in any corner of the world that a soccer team jersey sets, no need to apologize. As he apologizes Mascherano on the verge of tears. But it serves the forgiveness he left everything on the court.

Another disappointment, a new anguish seizes the selection. Again we paste the crossbar and stayed with tears, while others go crazy with happiness. It is an unthinkable cruelty this end, this end. Karma, curse, stigma, the word you want. But when your best player, the best in the world, look down and swallow it wants the land, hiding in the subway that leads to some distant, low place in a nameless station and stands there looking over and over Once the train comes and goes ... The train passed over in a final. It's time to accept the problem and make strong decisions. Congratulations, Chile. Another time, Argentina. Hopefully.

They always overreact and exaggerate Messi's role whenever they lose. Even Messi haters would admit that. He gets a rough ride from the Argentinian press. I'd have thought United fans would get that given their own #10 and the English press.
 
I like that, personally.

Seeing him seemingly not arsed, just sort of half-jogging about the place.

My mum, who deserves to be mentioned in a Caf thread, has made two observations about football players I remember to this day:

(non-chronologically):

* When we played Barca in the 2011 CL final she concluded that Messi wasn't anything to worry about, as the wee bugger didn't seem interested in the match at all.

* When England played Argentina in the 1986 WC she concluded that Maradona wasn't anything to worry about, as the wee bugger didn't seem interested in the match at all.

I don't know whether that says anything, but I put it out there.

It says you hate your mum.
 
Instead of spending days arguing about something most people haven't really seen, and instead of spending hours writing romantic posts about how life was like in 1986, here is the reality in case anybody is interested.

Let's now analyse Maradona's performance in the 1986 world cup final and dissect it like we do now with Messi (comparing Messi's whole career to Maradona's highlights is getting a bit boring and silly now).

Watch the whole game and tell me, who carried the other to win the world cup in the final? Did Maradona carry the team to the cup, or did the team (and luck?) carry Maradona to the cup? Forget carrying the team, did he do anything in the game more than the equivalent of this?



Here is the full game, please watch the whole game and only then give your eloquent opinion about 'Maradona vs Messi'.. And again, you can't continue to compare all of Messi's games, to Maradona's highlights.



Reminder: this was the only cup Maradona has ever won with Argentina, on any level, and in any competition (apart from the U-20 cup which Messi also won).
 
Yeah, I remember that match.

He was well taken care of until the Germans changed their tactics. Nice pass for the goal, though.

Of course it's a matter of margins. Everything is. We didn't strictly speaking deserve to win in '99. It was a great team, though.

For me, Maradona is the greatest player I've ever seen. It has something to do with that tournament - and that final, sure. But it doesn't boil down to that. It's about the way he played his football - unlike any player I've ever seen.

He was right there, though - during the time I myself was most impressionable, and passionate about football. That no doubt matters a great deal.

I can easily see myself in the Messi camp, so to speak, with Maradona playing the part that Pelé played for me. When I was a snotty brat I dismissed Pelé rather brutally, because he was supposed to be the greatest - whereas I knew, of course, that Maradona and nobody but Maradona deserved that title.

Now, as a fairly wise man, I realize that I was completely wrong about Pelé. These days I don't compare the greats, I just appreciate them for what they were and still are, in Messi's case. Sounds bland, I know. But the fact is that I can't honestly say who is greater than who, objectively speaking - because there's no way of doing that. Objectivity is about fairly judging a player's ability in terms of his own era - and that only goes so far. Trophies and stats and World Cups will never prove a bloody thing - I hope we can all agree on that, at least. If not, we have to conclude that some no-mark is greater than George Best. Or Di Stefano, for that matter.
 
Instead of spending days arguing about something most people haven't really seen, and instead of spending hours writing romantic posts about how life was like in 1986, here is the reality in case anybody is interested.

Let's now analyse Maradona's performance in the 1986 world cup final and dissect it like we do now with Messi (comparing Messi's whole career to Maradona's highlights is getting a bit boring and silly now).

Watch the whole game and tell me, who carried the other to win the world cup in the final? Did Maradona carry the team to the cup, or did the team (and luck?) carry Maradona to the cup? Forget carrying the team, did he do anything in the game more than the equivalent of this?



Here is the full game, please watch the whole game and only then give your eloquent opinion about 'Maradona vs Messi'.. And again, you can't continue to compare all of Messi's games, to Maradona's highlights.



Reminder: this was the only cup Maradona has ever won with Argentina, on any level, and in any competition (apart from the U-20 cup which Messi also won).


Maradona's performance in this final was better than Messi's in either final against Germany or Chile. And this was always remembered as Maradona's most subdued individual performance in 86. Unlike Messi 2014 who disappeared after the round of 16.

I do agree with your approach however. I believe to be entitled to any opinion must sit and watch at least 20 full Maradona matches. That's the only way to really compare. I am a big fan of Messi and he's undisputedly the world's best player of this generation. But Maradona, for me, produced more moments of magic and gave me more "how did he do that?" moments.
 
Maradona's performance in this final was better than Messi's in either final against Germany or Chile. And this was always remembered as Maradona's most subdued individual performance in 86. Unlike Messi 2014 who disappeared after the round of 16.

I do agree with your approach however. I believe to be entitled to any opinion must sit and watch at least 20 full Maradona matches. That's the only way to really compare. I am a big fan of Messi and he's undisputedly the world's best player of this generation. But Maradona, for me, produced more moments of magic and gave me more "how did he do that?" moments.
Did you watch it? I mean recently? Please give it another go if you have time.
 
I like that, personally.

Seeing him seemingly not arsed, just sort of half-jogging about the place.

My mum, who deserves to be mentioned in a Caf thread, has made two observations about football players I remember to this day:

(non-chronologically):

* When we played Barca in the 2011 CL final she concluded that Messi wasn't anything to worry about, as the wee bugger didn't seem interested in the match at all.

* When England played Argentina in the 1986 WC she concluded that Maradona wasn't anything to worry about, as the wee bugger didn't seem interested in the match at all.

I don't know whether that says anything, but I put it out there.

Your mom is a terrible Chelsea fan gambler ?
 
Instead of spending days arguing about something most people haven't really seen, and instead of spending hours writing romantic posts about how life was like in 1986, here is the reality in case anybody is interested.

Let's now analyse Maradona's performance in the 1986 world cup final and dissect it like we do now with Messi (comparing Messi's whole career to Maradona's highlights is getting a bit boring and silly now).

Watch the whole game and tell me, who carried the other to win the world cup in the final? Did Maradona carry the team to the cup, or did the team (and luck?) carry Maradona to the cup? Forget carrying the team, did he do anything in the game more than the equivalent of this?



Here is the full game, please watch the whole game and only then give your eloquent opinion about 'Maradona vs Messi'.. And again, you can't continue to compare all of Messi's games, to Maradona's highlights.



Reminder: this was the only cup Maradona has ever won with Argentina, on any level, and in any competition (apart from the U-20 cup which Messi also won).

Refreshing to see someone properly revisiting some of the old boys' performances, particularly when there's a minority who seem to be of the view that "I've never seen X, but Y has played so well in the last few years that I just can't imagine anyone being better than Y, therefore Y is the greatest of all time".

It's well recognised though that the final was Maradona's quietest in game in 1986. It's testament to how devastatingly influential he was in the six games before that we still see what he produced that summer as the pinnacle of footballing performance. Still, off the top of my head, he did these. The first a run where each of the four challenges he receives is probably a red card on its own. And the second is the assist to Burrachaga.

bDlcYf.gif


Yny2hG.gif


That said, I don't think distilling it that way is that useful when you're dealing with players with such brilliant careers where the body of work is huge.
was completely wrong about Pelé. These days I don't compare the greats, I just appreciate them for what they were and still are, in Messi's case. Sounds bland, I know. But the fact is that I can't honestly say who is greater than who, objectively speaking - because there's no way of doing that. Objectivity is about fairly judging a player's ability in terms of his own era - and that only goes so far. Trophies and stats and World Cups will never prove a bloody thing - I hope we can all agree on that, at least. If not, we have to conclude that some no-mark is greater than George Best. Or Di Stefano, for that matter.
Sums it up pretty well. I'm too young to have seen Maradona in his prime, but for each player who has hit the really exceptional heights over the last 20 years - Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Messi - it's always hard to envisage anyone from days-of-yore being better. Yet the more footage I go back and watch of Maradona, the higher I rate him. And then you get on to other greats of the 1980s in Zico and Platini and think, feck me, these guys are right up there as well. And that's not even getting in about the likes of Cruyff and Beckenbauer of the 1970s or Pele, Eusebio and Best in the 1960s. Never mind the frankly impossible task of assessing the worth of what Di Stefano, Puskas and Moreno were doing in the 1940s and 1950s.
 
Question: why do top players play so much more football these days? I was looking at Maradona and Messi's appearances on wiki, and Messi plays something 50 plus club games a year and another 10 (max) in international games, while maradona 30 plus club games with 10 (max) international appearances. Is this due to a shift in power in the hands of clubs? Found it strange.
 
Refreshing to see someone properly revisiting some of the old boys' performances, particularly when there's a minority who seem to be of the view that "I've never seen X, but Y has played so well in the last few years that I just can't imagine anyone being better than Y, therefore Y is the greatest of all time".

It's well recognised though that the final was Maradona's quietest in game in 1986. It's testament to how devastatingly influential he was in the six games before that we still see what he produced that summer as the pinnacle of footballing performance. Still, off the top of my head, he did these. The first a run where each of the four challenges he receives is probably a red card on its own. And the second is the assist to Burrachaga.

bDlcYf.gif


Yny2hG.gif


That said, I don't think distilling it that way is that useful when you're dealing with players with such brilliant careers where the body of work is huge.

Sums it up pretty well. I'm too young to have seen Maradona in his prime, but for each player who has hit the really exceptional heights over the last 20 years - Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Messi - it's always hard to envisage anyone from days-of-yore being better. Yet the more footage I go back and watch of Maradona, the higher I rate him. And then you get on to other greats of the 1980s in Zico and Platini and think, feck me, these guys are right up there as well. And that's not even getting in about the likes of Cruyff and Beckenbauer of the 1970s or Pele, Eusebio and Best in the 1960s. Never mind the frankly impossible task of assessing the worth of what Di Stefano, Puskas and Moreno were doing in the 1940s and 1950s.
Red card?! By the way, that run came right at the end of the game, and in fact the ref blew his whistle after the first challenge (awarding a freekick to Argentina) and the rest of the run didn't even count. And that pass to Burrachaga wasn't any better than Messi's pass to Lavezzi for example. It wasn't Messi's fault that Higuain missed in the end, and it wasn't down to Maradona's greatness that Burrachaga scored.

And please, don't give me the "top of my head" excuse. Watch the whole game (when you have time) and just post the minutes where you think Maradona did something worth mentioning. Why I'm stressing on watching the full game again, now? Because I have no doubt if Messi plays like this now his performance will be rated (especially by the Maradona camp) somewhere between "horrible" and "utterly sh*t". Yet when Maradona plays like this in the most important game in the competition he's best known for, it's glossed over. Imo the main reason for that is that he won in the end, thanks mainly to his teammates, and luck. Had Maradona not won he would not have the same stature he has now, but ironically he had very little to do with the outcome of the game that made the most difference to his stature.

For this reason I disagree with anybody who thinks that winning the world cup (or a player's performance in a handful of games) is the best measure for a player's greatness.
 
Question: why do top players play so much more football these days? I was looking at Maradona and Messi's appearances on wiki, and Messi plays something 50 plus club games a year and another 10 (max) in international games, while maradona 30 plus club games with 10 (max) international appearances. Is this due to a shift in power in the hands of clubs? Found it strange.
This is one of the big differences that people forget about when they compare the two.

Maradona used to play less games at club level because the Serie A was smaller, and because most of the time he didn't go far in the Cup competitions (European, which was also a smaller competition, or domestic).
 
The pass was easy. And see when Maradona picks the ball up at the end and runs there? I struggle to remember any more than 2 or 3 occasions in 120 minutes where Messi received the ball that close to goal with room to turn and face the goal.
 
The pass was easy. And see when Maradona picks the ball up at the end and runs there? I struggle to remember any more than 2 or 3 occasions in 120 minutes where Messi received the ball that close to goal with room to turn and face the goal.
It was one of the reasons that helped Maradona in this world cup, because he kind of took everybody by surprise. When teams started paying more attention to him he failed to impress again with Argentina.
 
Yet when Maradona plays like this in the most important game in the competition he's best known for, it's glossed over. Imo the main reason for that is that he won in the end, thanks mainly to his teammates, and luck. Had Maradona not won he would not have the same stature he has now, but ironically he had very little to do with the outcome of the game that made the most difference to his stature.
Obviously winning it was important for his reputation. But you can't ignore his excellence throughout the tournament by just looking at the final. That's silly. No one claimed he performed brilliantly in the final, he was overall incredible, scored all of his team's goals in the quarter- and semifinal and played the game deciding pass in an underwhelming final. Nothing you wrote changes that. Even the stats speak for themselves. 5 goals (all of them against top teams - the equaliser against Italy, the two goals against England and the two goals in the semifinal against Belgium) and 5 assists (including the most important one in the last minutes of the final).

It was one of the reasons that helped Maradona in this world cup, because he kind of took everybody by surprise. When teams started paying more attention to him he failed to impress again with Argentina.
That's just ridiculous. Maradona was already man-marked by the best defenders in 1982 and the same happened in 1986 throughout the tournament. He didn't take anyone by surprise, he was already a superstar and his transfer to Napoli 2 years earlier set a record beyond belief (more than twice as much as the 2nd most expensive transfer at the time). He won the player of the year award in Italy before the World Cup and had arguably already surpassed Platini as the best player in the world. Germany even sacrificed their best player in Matthäus to mark him and only changed it after we were 2-0 down at halftime and needed to attack. And Karlheinz Förster, who took over, was easily one of the best man-markers of the 80's anyway. He didn't fail to impress once teams started paying attention at all, quite the opposite. He excelled in the knockout stages and overcame fantastic man-marking from a negative German side that reached three consecutive world cup finals.
 
I will probably never understand this constant comparison between the two whereas it's impossible and pointless to do it fairly the football discussed is in two different eras with some many changes.
 
ironically he had very little to do with the outcome of the game that made the most difference to his stature.

For this reason I disagree with anybody who thinks that winning the world cup (or a player's performance in a handful of games) is the best measure for a player's greatness.
Irrespective of how the 1986 final turned out, Maradona had already produced the greatest tournament of all time. The final was mostly a team effort and the icing on the cake.
It was one of the reasons that helped Maradona in this world cup, because he kind of took everybody by surprise. When teams started paying more attention to him he failed to impress again with Argentina.
Now your agenda is shining through crystal clear. Heed some of your own advice and go and watch the rest of the 1986 cup, or any of Argentina's internationals from 1978-1990 with him in the side: he was constantly the target of roughhouse tactics (which were largely par for the course and rarely penalised by referees). He hadn't been surprising anyone since 1977.
 
Irrespective of how the 1986 final turned out, Maradona had already produced the greatest tournament of all time. The final was mostly a team effort and the icing on the cake.

Now your agenda is shining through crystal clear. Heed some of your own advice and go and watch the rest of the 1986 cup, or any of Argentina's internationals from 1978-1990 with him in the side: he was constantly the target of roughhouse tactics (which were largely par for the course and rarely penalised by referees). He hadn't been surprising anyone since 1977.


Half a Maradona almost retained the WC in 1990. And he was regarded as the best in the world, better than Platini in 82 when he was only 22.

On a different level to be fair.
 
So why only discussion about NT? Why no discussion about club career? Afterall Maradona won just 1 more WC compared to Messi. The talk here is as if Maradona won all WC he played in. He also failed to win Copa with the NT. Somehow it seems 1986 success masks over his other failures. Whereas a half-fit Messi scoring 50 goals on calender year is judged to be having a bad year. Strange method to judge players, isn't it? Shouldn't Maradona be judged how he failed to win more with clubs considering his stature as the GOAT?
IMO, 1986 WC seem to cloud our judgement a lot. And for this reason, I think many other players don't get the recognition they deserve. Winning CL as a team is as tough as winning the WC. Infact you are likely to face much tougher teams in CL to reach the final.
 
So why only discussion about NT? Why no discussion about club career? Afterall Maradona won just 1 more WC compared to Messi. The talk here is as if Maradona won all WC he played in. He also failed to win Copa with the NT. Somehow it seems 1986 success masks over his other failures. Whereas a half-fit Messi scoring 50 goals on calender year is judged to be having a bad year. Strange method to judge players, isn't it? Shouldn't Maradona be judged how he failed to win more with clubs considering his stature as the GOAT?
IMO, 1986 WC seem to cloud our judgement a lot. And for this reason, I think many other players don't get the recognition they deserve. Winning CL as a team is as tough as winning the WC. Infact you are likely to face much tougher teams in CL to reach the final.

Maradonna never played for a club where it was an ever rotating door of world class players in and out. Yes he played for Barcelona, but they're a different beast now.

What seems to be a common denominator between Messi and Ronaldo these days is that unless their teams are far superior to the opposition, they do not look half as good as their numbers suggest. They are both very clinical and have moments of absolute brilliance, but for me i'm struggling to see how either of them could ever take a half baked team to world cup or cl finals.
 
Or to put it another way, Maradona never played at a club where he was under pressure to win everything.
 
Or to put it another way, Maradona never played at a club where he was under pressure to win everything.

national team is the same, he was probably under pressure to win something as Argentina was always among the favorites(i assume) but compared to Messi is nothing(because Maradona won it).
 
Just like Maradona's brilliant in 1986 is well known, some of the stuff he did with Napoli probably doesn't get the full recognition it deserves because football was not globally watched as it is today. It might not have been on par with Messi, but it was special.

At the same time, I'm not keen on letting a tournament played once every four years to have such a huge influence in deciding a player's greatness, when he's been doing so brilliant week in, week out for years and years,
 
national team is the same, he was probably under pressure to win something as Argentina was always among the favorites(i assume) but compared to Messi is nothing(because Maradona won it).

yeah Maradona never went to World cups being compared to a player from a previous era, expected to win it by himself, his every game and every move scrutinised worldwide.

Messi's been dealing with pressure Maradona simple never had to deal with, mental pressure is a big factor in football. El Diego never knew the half of it, even now he wouldn't because he'd be on drugs and that'd take the edge off :lol:
 
What seems to be a common denominator between Messi and Ronaldo these days is that unless their teams are far superior to the opposition, they do not look half as good as their numbers suggest. They are both very clinical and have moments of absolute brilliance, but for me i'm struggling to see how either of them could ever take a half baked team to world cup or cl finals.

What the hell is this? :lol: