Just blows my mind that people still struggle to see the difference between a handful of games in knock-out tournaments every few years and season after season playing hundreds of games of league football. The former is blatantly a lousy barometer of individual talent. I mean, fecking hell we're less than 24 hours after an Argentinian team-mate fecking up a reasonable chance which would have seen Messi's international legacy significantly improved. Something he could do absolutely nothing about. It's a knockout contest in a team sport ffs. Barmy the way people can't see past this and insist on giving international records far more merit than they deserve.
Lionel Messi - Performances
- Thread starter Rado_N
- Start date
The players Messi was directly up against on the left-center were Beausejour, Medel and Marcelo Diaz. Those are all Championship level players. Diaz just about escaped relegation with Hamburg, Medel was a Cardiff player last season and Beausejour played for Birmingham and Wigan. If we prohibited the South American tenacity and applied modern European rules, these players would be all booked after the first tactical foul on Messi and from then on spectate Messi slalom his way into the box without much resistance like in a generic Barca vs. bottom La Liga team 6-0 game. So in that sense I liked that they were allowed to help themselves with slightly "darker arts" to make this a competitive game. Obviously without it turning violent. Studs up challenges etc. should be punished per se but nudging, pushing, a bit of shirt pulling etc. not immediately resulting in yellows makes for great viewing IMO. Especially fascinating to see how a great player like Messi deals with it.
Absolute nonsense.
Comments like that somehow always ignore the actual level of the performances. You can easily argue that Maradona's performances for Napoli were every bit as impressive as Messi's at Barca. You sure as hell can't say the same about Messi's performances for Argentina in comparison to Maradona's.
I don't know much about the other two, but that's just nonsense. I don't get why people constantly go to such bullshit extremes to prove some silly point. Diaz was a very good player for a constantly overachieving Basel side that regularly caused English top teams a shitload of problems in European competitions. The fact that he moved to Hamburg in January, played there 4 months (had an injury and missed quite a few weeks as well) and helped them avoid relegation in the end surely doesn't make him a Championship level player.
I haven't seen enough of Maradona to know myself but surely that argument in favour of Maradona is completely ignoring longevity of performances? I'm assuming Messi blows him our of the water if that is considered?
Messi should make sure Argentina loses early in a tournament. So he does not have to face the embarrassment of losing in the final.
You really can't.
Well, yes and no. I'd say Maradona's rise to the top was quite consistent and impressive until this happened ...
... at the beginning of his 2nd season at Barca. It basically destroyed his time at Barca. Missing half the season meant they didn't win the league. The cnut he was, he got his revenge against Goikoetxea in the cup final, which saw him starting a huge brawl in front of the Spanish king and Barca decided to get rid of him.
Despite that horrible foul and the broken leg, he came back better than before and played consistently brilliant in Italy until he was 29/30 years old. He established Napoli as a top team, kept them in the top 2 for 4 consecutive years and beat Sacchi's Milan to a league title. He was 28 years old when he won the UEFA Cup (which was a fantastic competition back then) and 29 years old when they won the league in 89/90.
Now if we compare longevity of performances, let's assume Messi would quit playing football today. Is there really that much in it? I'm not a big fan of judging players before they retire or actually are clearly behind their peak. I once wrote on the Caf that I actually can see Messi winning the world cup in 2022 in a Pirlo-esque role if he stays healthy. He'll only be 35 then. But let's wait what actually happens, because Messi is only 28 and can easily play in 2 more World Cups and 3 more Copas (2016,2019,2023).
And his career defining moments were cheating to score with his hand to get his team off the mark, and scoring a solo goal where no-one actually tackles him because the England team were apparently all on yellow cards
And his career defining moments were cheating to score with his hand to get his team off the mark, and scoring a solo goal where no-one actually tackles him because the England team were apparently all on yellow cards
Yep and he had curly hair and tight shorts and never tied his football laces.....
Fair enough. As I said, haven't really seen enough of Maradona to legitimately argue either way, just assumed (wrongly I guess) that Maradona couldn't match Messi's amount of years at the very top.
How has Messi ever had the perfect platform for international success? The only time he's had a proper coach and a solid unit behind him in his mature career was last year and he went into that tournament with his form and fitness lower that it'd ever been since he was a kid with his team adopting a more defensive approach in the latter rounds.
Outside of his early years for Argentina it's been an ever changing coaching team and squad of players with abject failure the end result for all of them. It's hardly all set up for him is it?
There have been several times when he could have and should have done better, but some people really take the piss for an excuse to pin it all on him, with the tactic for that usual romanticizing the feck out of El Diego's career and tales of his mythical powers to make pub players play like world class players at the 86 world cup and taking a sunday league side to league success in Italy.
At the end of the day Messi's team never got going in the final, he opened up their only clear chance and stepped up to slot his penalty away too which was about all he could do in that intensity and tightness of that game. I think the wanking over the fact he's probably never going to win anything on the international level says more about how much his talent and stature in the game bothers people who don't particularly like him.
Outside of his early years for Argentina it's been an ever changing coaching team and squad of players with abject failure the end result for all of them. It's hardly all set up for him is it?
There have been several times when he could have and should have done better, but some people really take the piss for an excuse to pin it all on him, with the tactic for that usual romanticizing the feck out of El Diego's career and tales of his mythical powers to make pub players play like world class players at the 86 world cup and taking a sunday league side to league success in Italy.
At the end of the day Messi's team never got going in the final, he opened up their only clear chance and stepped up to slot his penalty away too which was about all he could do in that intensity and tightness of that game. I think the wanking over the fact he's probably never going to win anything on the international level says more about how much his talent and stature in the game bothers people who don't particularly like him.
I think Maradona is at an disadvantage in that comparison, because he didn't play in Europe until he was 21. But he was already top scorer in the Argentinean league when he was 17, was the best player in the u20 world cup and lead Argentina to the title. He was scoring for fun and already a football superstar and 2 times Southamerican footballer of the year before he came to Europe. Coming through the youth academy of an European top club today makes it a lot easier to assemble an impressive trophy haul than fighting your way up starting at some Argentinean club in the late 70's.
Internationals used to be the peak tournaments, now for me the champions league is a higher standard. But as much as Messi is brilliant Maradona was equally brilliant. And as for the World Cup he is the only player I've seen stick out as much as he has in a World Cup packed with talent. Both are genius but no slight on Messi to come second to Maradona (my father thinks Pele was better than both). It's a game of opinions and some will say Messi some will say Maradona the fact it is comparable speaks volumes for both.
Agreed.
True, but any top athlete should cope with that without too much fuss. It's just another excuse. He has been disappointing for his national team overall.
If Messi takes his chance just after half time v Germany and Higuain slots that away last night, we'd be talking about the greatest 12 months that a player has ever had.
It's fine margins which it should be when discussing the best ever
It's fine margins which it should be when discussing the best ever
Maradona's NT career record other than 1986 doesn't seem that impressive, does it?
Luck plays a big part in every tournament win. Very fine margins.
Luck plays a big part in every tournament win. Very fine margins.
Fair point. If you want to put emphasis on the perfect aspect, then no he's probably never had that, but then that's the whole point - at Barca he has the perfect platform for unparalleled success, but once he steps out of that perfect environment is he still able to excel? That's the question he's still yet to answer for me. Do you really think Maradona had the perfect platform in '86? Or to throw a different name into the mix, Garrincha in '62? Thinking Messi needs and even deserves the perfect environment to excel is defending him to the point where you're putting limitations on what he's capable of. If he goes on to prove that throughout his career he does have these significant limitations then I don't think he'll be recognised as the undisputed best. I don't think he does have these limitations though. I just think he's underachieved for his national team as of yet. I fully expect him to have an inspired World Cup tournament at some point - it just hasn't quite come together yet. Whether that ends in a trophy or not is neither here nor there but him exerting his obvious superiority over the footballing world in the biggest tournament in the game is one of the few delights he's not yet given us.
Messi won't go down as one of the greatest players in football, that's a fact.
When Messi is long retired, people will look back with similar nostalgia and mystique to what Maradona enjoys now and he will be spoken of as the best player of all time, no contest. To compound it, his ridiculous hours and hours of skills, goals, assists and passes will be watched in awe by the next generation of kids to an extent nobody ever could with Mararona.
Excellent post.
On the bold part, most of us would agree that he'd still be able to excel, it's just that for whatever reason, isn't happening for him. And I think him underachieving for his NT is one of those reasons albeit not the only one. And no, I don't buy the "underwhelming compared to the standards set by him" nonsense, cos I believe he's really been underwhelming for any good player in those tournaments.
Not that I'm interested in comparing him with the greats of the past, cos I'm not - it's truly boring and tiresome discussion to have knowing he's the best I have seen play, but I agree that it'd be a lot more delightful if he delivered in those biggest of tournaments.
That makes little sense to me tbh. If he is so good then hacking him down and pulling his shirt shouldn't be more acceptable. There are much better ways to stop him and much cleaner in terms of defending.
Apparently he refused the player of the tournament award
Quite right too IMO
Quite right too IMO
fact? he's already regarded as the greatest of time by many. Your post is bollocks, that's a fact.
I think Maradona had more luck on his side. Like I said, the luck to break the deadlock against England by cheating and getting away with it, the luck that he wasn't nearly as scrutinized as Messi is and didn't play under the same kind of pressure the modern players do with every detail of their being analysed to death. He was also lucky that his team mate took the chance he created in the world cup final, had it been Higuain on the end of his pass things might have been different.
If's, buts and maybes, and certainly very fine margins. It's not that he needs a perfection environment, he needs an extra bit of luck that you need in cup competitions, like his team mates scoring open goals and not fluffing penalties.
PS who above said that they'd like to see European games refereed like that game last night? I couldn't disagree more, aside from the first half hour last night was about 90 minutes of kick and rush, very little football played. If you'd rather watch that you're probably watching the wrong sport.
@Brwned with some excellent posts.
Definitely doesn't deserve the Ballon D'Or this year. Sanchez should win it because he won when it mattered, and he won with two different teams.
You can. You'd be wrong though.
423 goals in 514 games for Barcelona as well as the assists and general all round play.
Maradona gets far too much praise for the cheat and dope user he was.
This is a Messi performance thread I think people need to remember, it's quickly becoming derailed.
Possibly the best post in football forum history.
Absolute nonsense. He doesn't need to kick a ball ever again for Argentina and he'll rightly be remembered as a once in a century talent.
The biggest tragedy in a footballing sense is that a one month tournament in which you face the likes of Iran and Jamaica can so easily override an entire career of such greatness.
If international football was as important as some believe (I'm not sure they really do but it drives their agenda) we'd be seeing people argue that a guy like Thomas Muller is better/greater than Messi. He's always turned up for the national team, he's won a World Cup, he's been the MVP and top scorer at a tournament and he's had a solid club career.
lol at spoony, rooneylegend and co piggybacking brwned's post because he put up a more credible argument that they could ever dream of. It doesn't mean he's right lads, but credit to him for offering a good detailed description of his own person view, something you guys rarely manage beyond "but di maria, aguero, higuain, how can he not win it playing with them?".
He's bossed the landscape more than any other player of the least 20 years could dream of. That automatically puts him at the very least on a parallel with Pele and Maradona. If anything, I imagine fans of the future will overestimate Messi through rose tinted glasses.
Last edited:
You see, that's my problem with these threads. I don't have an agenda. I think Messi's amazing. Most of the time I watch Barcelona I watch them to see him, and he's the only player that has that kind of impact on me. Fair enough if you don't agree with my opinion but do me a favour and take a step back to recognise that not everyone has an agenda, not everyone is someone's fanboy, not everyone in here offering an opinion is getting involved in the childish point-scoring contests. Most people don't care about that in the slightest.
There are people who argue with the same certainty as you do that di Stéfano is undoubtedly the best player of all time, and they could make a good argument for it. There are lots of others who dismiss him entirely because of his lack of impact on the international stage. It is what it is. It's best not to get too hung up on how wrong everyone else is in forming these opinions.
Last edited:
Not really seeing what you're getting at here. A defender and a winger both being at Man United for one season (mostly the treatment room) and the centre backs sharing a team as Messi and Ageuro hardly lends itself to an idea of natural team cohesion within the Argentinian squad. Yeah, most national teams don't benefit that, I'm not saying the fact Messi hasn't got Xavi, iniesta, Pedro, Alves and Busquets playing with him for Argentina means he can't be expected to perform, but using groupings like this seems inconsequential
Last edited:
There's no point that he made that I haven't in this thread(I do sometimes use hyperboles I must accept) , but he's a wonderful scribe and although sometimes I don't agree with his opinion, he couldn't have put that one any better and its something as we all should know by now, I'm in full agreement with.