Lionel Messi - Performances

do i have to remind all of you of this:

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look at the names of the players that formerly held those records

no maradona, no pele, only distefano
 
DesiBD said:
He needs to do it outside his comfort zone. /s
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so, besides winning 4 cl and i dont know how many copa del rey and ligas, he has to win a world cup

because lets remember that maradona won 2 ligas, one copa italia and one uefa cup, something laughable if you compare it with messi

then maradona won one world cup while messi made it to the final, only to see how his teamates failed to score the chances they had,

that's another difference with maradona, who saw how burruchaga scored the chance he gave him

and messi's history with our NT shows tha the most games he played for us in a year was 14, most of the times he plays less of 10 games a year with us

in his games with us, he has a media of 0,45 goals a game

not bad at all i'd say
 
How can playing for a team like Barcelona where all eyes are on him and they're expected to win everything be described as a "comfort zone"? :lol:
 
Marcosdeto said:
so, besides winning 4 cl and i dont know how many copa del rey and ligas, he has to win a world cup

because lets remember that maradona won 2 ligas, one copa italia and one uefa cup, something laughable if you compare it with messi

then maradona won one world cup while messi made it to the final, only to see how his teamates failed to score the chances they had,

that's another difference with maradona, who saw how burruchaga scored the chance he gave him

and messi's history with our NT shows tha the most games he played for us in a year was 14, most of the times he plays less of 10 games a year with us

in his games with us, he has a media of 0,45 goals a game

not bad at all i'd say
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I was just kidding. Messi has nothing left to prove.
 
Maradona took a Napoli reeling at 13th to top tier of serie a in just a couple of seasons or so. Messi is obviously is an important part but he doesn't carry Barcelona or Argentina nearly the same way maradona carried Napoli and Argentina. It's not even close.
 
prath92 said:
Maradona took a Napoli reeling at 13th to top tier of serie a in just a couple of seasons or so. Messi is obviously is an important part but he doesn't carry Barcelona or Argentina nearly the same way maradona carried Napoli and Argentina. It's not even close.
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and what did maradona do with barcelona?
 
prath92 said:
Maradona took a Napoli reeling at 13th to top tier of serie a in just a couple of seasons or so. Messi is obviously is an important part but he doesn't carry Barcelona or Argentina nearly the same way maradona carried Napoli and Argentina. It's not even close.
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Being the most influential player in a Barcelona side that won two Trebles in the space of 6 years doesn't match that?
 
DesiBD said:
Being the most influential player in a Barcelona side that won two Trebles in the space of 6 years doesn't match that?
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when argentina loses, is messi's fault, when barcelona wins, is the teams work
on the other hand, Maradona didnt make it with Barcelona because it was his teamates fault and he made it with argentina all by himself

get used to this
 
Marcosdeto said:
and what did maradona do with barcelona?
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As someone mentioned here, he had hepatitis and an injury which cut his game time quite a lot. But his performances were never in doubt. To date he is the only barca player besides Ronaldinho to get a standing ovation from Madrid fans at the bernabeu

DesiBD said:
Being the most influential player in a Barcelona side that won two Trebles in the space of 6 years doesn't match that?
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Being influential isn't the same as carrying the team. Messi in both the treble years had players who could score a lot of goals and players who could create individually as well. To argue that he had to carry both the teams is just absurd.
 
prath92 said:
As someone mentioned here, he had hepatitis and an injury which cut his game time quite a lot. But his performances were never in doubt. To date he is the only barca player besides Ronaldinho to get a standing ovation from Madrid fans at the bernabeu



Being influential isn't the same as carrying the team. Messi in both the treble years had players who could score a lot of goals and players who could create individually as well. To argue that he had to carry both the teams is just absurd.
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as absurd as to say that Maradona carried argentina in 1986 or to praise that much that he "carried" napoli to TWO scudettos in 7 years

btw, about recieving a standing ovation at the bernabeu, today Messi is the only player in history to ever scored a hattrick against real madrid

he only did it twice
 
Marcosdeto said:
excellent! they are pointless, then we can talk about what we see

i saw maradona and i saw messi

messi is better
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Better for you. It's always going to be completely subjective and it's better(Well more interesting anyway) for people just say their opinion rather than try to prove it with stat's and so on.
 
Sweet Square said:
Better for you. It's always going to be completely subjective and it's better(Well more interesting anyway) for people just say their opinion rather than try to prove it with stat's and so on.
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what maradona did for argentina or napoli, messi did it ten times for barcelona and for argentina

the difference between messi and maradona is that maradona had better finishers to his assists
 
Marcosdeto said:
as absurd as to say that Maradona carried argentina in 1986 or to praise that much that he "carried" napoli to TWO scudettos in 7 years

btw, about recieving a standing ovation at the bernabeu, today Messi is the only player in history to ever scored a hattrick against real madrid

he only did it twice
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Before he came Napoli hadn't won a trophy in 10 years but in the 7 years that he played there they won 2 liga titles 2 copa Italia and a UEFA cup. In their history they have won exactly 2 liga titles so it's safe to say that was an achievement.
 
I for one value Club career much higher then International, in the latter one there are to many things that can go wrong and only small percentage of this things have to do with players talents. Is Gazza the better/greater player then George Best because he did it at the "highest" stage and the other one didnt even play there?
Lets on a second ignore the fact that WC is every 4 years and in the meantime players play together every few months for one or two game. Most players would have only one chance to go at it as you rarely see the player at his peak for such a long period that he can have a fair shoot at his very best. With that in mind there are so many factors, you can have a poor or wrong group of players in your team, unbalanced squad, poor team chemistry, you can carry a slight injury etc.
And in the end its a tournament based competition which means that you can be the best team at the tournament, play great for xy number of matches and still not win it because of bad day, refs mistake etc. Some greats manage to win it, some dont. I know many people mentioned how its not about winning and how its about performances but i am 100% that most of unbiased people here wouldnt participate in this debate if Higuain scored at he WC final and Argentina won it in the end no matter what you think about his performance there.

The thing i like about club level is that everybody has a equal chance, you can be from Brazil, Spain, Bulgaria doesnt matter, if you are good enough you will get your chance to play for the best teams so you will have the chance of winning everything. You call it a comfort zone, fine. Maybe Maradona comfort zone was to play with "lesser" players as he couldnt cooperate with other greats like Messi does? At the end of the day you can only see what has one achieved in his career and what the other did, Messi is still playing and will be playing for some while and he is already miles apart from Maradona achievements/performances. Nobody(you can make a case for Di Stefano but that opens up another discussion about Franco influence and i dont think its time or place for that) ever dominated football like Messi does. Its not even about the titles, the records or personal awards altough this things tell you the story, just watch him and you see why most of the people in the game think he is undoubtedly the greatest of all time.
 
rover said:
in his days barca was just also a feeder club to those giants in italy
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those are the same "giants" that let Verona and sampdoria win the 1985 and in 1991 scudettos?


the ones that when Maradona was in italy only managed to win two CL -Milan-at the same time that England was banned from that competition?

the giants that let Steaua Bucarest, Red Star, Porto and PSV Endhoven win the CL? were was maradona in those years?

why did those absurd teams won the CL and Napoli "carried" by maradona didnt?

give me a break
 
Marcosdeto said:
and what did maradona do with barcelona?
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Shhhh, marcos, we're trying to write a romantic story here. A story where,

- Unlike Messi, Maradona was fantastic in the 1986 WC final, and he totally won it for his team, and his teammates had nothing to do with it (where the truth is the complete opposite).
- Serie A was sooo tough to win at the time (that 6 different teams have won it from 1984-1991 including Verona!).
- Argentina won many other titles with Maradona, apart from the one where he took the whole world by surprise (= 0).
- Barcelona doesn't count, whether you succeed or fail there.
- 1 UEFA cup (equivalent of the Europa League) is the best trophy in club football (because feck the champions league)

...

Please follow the rules.
 
prath92 said:
Before he came Napoli hadn't won a trophy in 10 years but in the 7 years that he played there they won 2 liga titles 2 copa Italia and a UEFA cup. In their history they have won exactly 2 liga titles so it's safe to say that was an achievement.
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before messi came they had won only one CL, after he came they won 4 more

and two trebbles
 
Danny1982 said:
Shhhh, marcos, we're trying to write a romantic story here. A story where,

- Unlike Messi, Maradona was fantastic in the 1986 WC final, and he totally won it for his team, and his teammates had nothing to do with it (where the truth is the complete opposite).
- Serie A was sooo tough to win at the time (that 6 different teams have won it from 1984-1991 including Verona!).
- Argentina won many other titles with Maradona, apart from the one where he took the whole world by surprise (= 0).
- Barcelona doesn't count, whether you succeed or fail there.
- 1 UEFA cup (equivalent of the Europa League) is the best trophy in club football (because feck the champions league)

...

Please follow the rules.
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seriously mate, some people like to sugar coat scudettos and deride CL
 
Bole Top said:
it's funny how (for some people) it's always Messi who has to do this and has to do that, never the player he's being compared to, in this case Maradona. Maradona doesn't need comparable trophy haul, doesn't need champions league succes, doesn't even need Copa, doesn't need so many personal awards and it seems the fact he failed in Spain also isn't important... but he has one world cup trophy that apparently shits all over Messi's career. which is far from over, btw.
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They also didn't need human growth hormone.
 
prath92 said:
Being influential isn't the same as carrying the team. Messi in both the treble years had players who could score a lot of goals and players who could create individually as well. To argue that he had to carry both the teams is just absurd.
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No one argued that.

He was influential to a lesser extent in 2009, but 2015 was something else. It was easily the best individual season I've ever seen. He is Barcelona's main playmaker, top scorer and assist leader in a season where they won the Treble in a dominating fashion as well. Maradona "carried" Napoli to 2 league titles in an era where 6 different teams won it. I wonder how you would define Messi's performance last season then.
 
Marcosdeto said:
before messi came they had won only one CL, after he came they won 4 more

and two trebbles
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You are really comparing Napoli and barca here? Barca had a brilliant team since the 90s. Many brilliant players like stoichkov Romario and all played there. Even before that they had top talents like Lineker and mark Hughes plying trade in Barcelona.

It's not just the trophies which make it valuable but the team that won it. By no means Napoli were or even are a European superpower but they won a European tournament. They hadn't won before that and haven't since then. It's like van gaal winning the Dutch league wth alkmar in 2007 or so. You could argue that it's only the Dutch league and that it's nothing compared to EPL or la liga but alkmar was Nd still is a mid table team who had last won the league in 1982 which makes it a big achievement . That's why even 2 leagues makes it a huge achievement
 
Marcosdeto said:
those are the same "giants" that let Verona and sampdoria win the 1985 and in 1991 scudettos?


the ones that when Maradona was in italy only managed to win two CL -Milan-at the same time that England was banned from that competition?

the giants that let Steaua Bucarest, Red Star, Porto and PSV Endhoven win the CL? were was maradona in those years?

why did those absurd teams won the CL and Napoli "carried" by maradona didnt?

give me a break
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what's that above relevant to la liga being a feeder league to serie a in the 80's? players follow the money and there was where the money about at that time being.

there was no "cl' in those days. that was european cup, a pure cup tournament without any fuzzy group stages something like that. and this was not much the focus of european clubs neither. at least clubs would be more focus in their domestic league title rather.

winning something can be a result of collective efforts. sometimes it can be done by some outstanding individuals who play a decisive role in the campaign. just like rvp won us the 20th league title. and maradona carried napoli to the title which is something equivalent to someone carrying villareal to winning the la liga.

another measurement of greatness is the performance under stress. only true greatness can still win out something in adversity

i don't think there is anyone here would try to diminish what had been achieved by messi, and no doubt he has the most achievement in football in his generation. but he really needs a world cup to let him in parallel with those icons. similar thing applied to plantini.

probably you are the only argentine whom are so hateful to maradona i've ever met. funny
 
DesiBD said:
No one argued that.

He was influential to a lesser extent in 2009, but 2015 was something else. It was easily the best individual season I've ever seen. He is Barcelona's main playmaker, top scorer and assist leader in a season where they won the Treble in a dominating fashion as well. Maradona "carried" Napoli to 2 league titles in an era where 6 different teams won it. I wonder how you would define Messi's performance last season then.
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Messi was successful last season in comparison to the previous seasons mainly because he didn't have to carry the team. He had Suarez and Neymar who could score whenever they wanted it would seem. Which helped him play really well. Which is the opposite of carrying a team. Carrying a team isn't just being top of scoring and assisting.

I hope you know that I'm not critiscizing Messi. He is obviously the most talented of this era but to say he is better than maradona isn't right.
 
rover said:
what's that above relevant to la liga being a feeder league to serie a in the 80's? players follow the money and there was where the money about at that time being.

there was no "cl' in those days. that was european cup, a pure cup tournament without any fuzzy group stages something like that. and this was not much the focus of european clubs neither. at least clubs would be more focus in their domestic league title rather.

winning something can be a result of collective efforts. sometimes it can be done by some outstanding individuals who play a decisive role in the campaign. just like rvp won us the 20th league title. and maradona carried napoli to the title which is something equivalent to someone carrying villareal to winning the la liga.

another measurement of greatness is the performance under stress. only true greatness can still win out something in adversity

i don't think there is anyone here would try to diminish what had been achieved by messi, and no doubt he has the most achievement in football in his generation. but he really needs a world cup to let him in parallel with those icons. similar thing applied to plantini.

probably you are the only argentine whom are so hateful to maradona i've ever met. funny
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you used the word "giants"

i thought that was pretty clear


and if "then" they "didnt focus" in European Cup, that gives more credit for Messis four CL

doesnt it?
 
Marcosdeto said:
yes, the bastard, now he is 1,73

btw, "americano" do you like basketball, american football or baseball or that funny guy that rode a bike called Dopstrong or Armstrong os something? because you are on for a huge surprise
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Why don't we address the real question first? Don't you find it odd that the so called "greatest" player has an unusual relationship with a substance that he took (supposedly) therapeutically and is known as a powerful performance enhancer? I would like to know more about his past and current use and or abuse of HGH.

But since you asked, "marcosdeto", Lance Armstrong is a lying sack of shit, a total fraud and an outcast in our society. As he should be. It took a while for him to be found out but there it is. I am against the use of performance enhancing drugs in all sports and I accept no excuses or rationalizations for their use. Most US sports are working hard to find and penalize the cheaters but some of them will slip through. Many are caught and punished.

To this point, though, I am not aware of many professional football players who have been found taking PEDs, although I am sure there are many who are using. Rio was penalized for missing a test. Anyone else? Just because no one gets busted does not mean the sport is clean.
 
Americano said:
Why don't we address the real question first? Don't you find it odd that the so called "greatest" player has an unusual relationship with a substance that he took (supposedly) therapeutically and is known as a powerful performance enhancer? I would like to know more about his past and current use and or abuse of HGH.

But since you asked, "marcosdeto", Lance Armstrong is a lying sack of shit, a total fraud and an outcast in our society. As he should be. It took a while for him to be found out but there it is. I am against the use of performance enhancing drugs in all sports and I accept no excuses or rationalizations for their use. Most US sports are working hard to find and penalize the cheaters but some of them will slip through. Many are caught and punished.

To this point, though, I am not aware of many professional football players who have been found taking PEDs, although I am sure there are many who are using. Rio was penalized for missing a test. Anyone else? Just because no one gets busted does not mean the sport is clean.
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Yeah but just because the USA is a notorious breeding ground for drug cheats and disgraced sportsmen doesn't mean everyone's at it.

You're just a bitter guy, why didn't he appear to have the energy or stamina of the Chilean players with all that alleged juice?

You don't know enough about Growth hormone treatment or Messi's specific treatment. You're adding 2 and 2 and getting 5. At least educate yourself and you'll realise how silly it is :)
 
the milans, juventus, are definitely the giants in the 80's. and maradona chose napoli at that time being which made him such a unique person he was, no matter you like him or not. just like if neymar chose vallecano and brought them to the la liga title, then he would definitely have my hat's off to him
 
Marcosdeto said:
you used the word "giants"

i thought that was pretty clear
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Americano said:
Why don't we address the real question first? Don't you find it odd that the so called "greatest" player has an unusual relationship with a substance that he took (supposedly) therapeutically and is known as a powerful performance enhancer? I would like to know more about his past and current use and or abuse of HGH.

But since you asked, "marcosdeto", Lance Armstrong is a lying sack of shit, a total fraud and an outcast in our society. As he should be. It took a while for him to be found out but there it is. I am against the use of performance enhancing drugs in all sports and I accept no excuses or rationalizations for their use. Most US sports are working hard to find and penalize the cheaters but some of them will slip through. Many are caught and punished.

To this point, though, I am not aware of many professional football players who have been found taking PEDs, although I am sure there are many who are using. Rio was penalized for missing a test. Anyone else? Just because no one gets busted does not mean the sport is clean.
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"most US sports" americano? "mosts" :lol: well done!!! give "most" a medal

and since you ask, did you ever wonder why are you the genius that discovered that messi is a dopey, while real madrid, manchester united, juventus and every team that ever lost against messi, never argued that point?

or is it just you being a cnut trying to smeer a players career with your stupid remarks?
 
rover said:
the milans, juventus, are definitely the giants in the 80's. and maradona chose napoli at that time being which made him such a unique person he was, no matter you like him or not. just like if neymar chose vallecano and brought them to the la liga title, then he would definitely have my hat's off to him
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while messi played for napoli, the "Giants" Milan and Juventus won ONE liga each

1984–85 Hellas Verona
1985–86 Juventus (
1986–87 SSC Napoli
1987–88 AC Milan
1988–89 Internazionale
1989–90 SSC Napoli
1990–91 UC Sampdoria


now please tell me, how are they "giants"???
 
Snake Plissken said:
Yeah but just because the USA is a notorious breeding ground for drug cheats and disgraced sportsmen doesn't mean everyone's at it.

You're just a bitter guy, why didn't he appear to have the energy or stamina of the Chilean players with all that alleged juice?

You don't know enough about Growth hormone treatment or Messi's specific treatment. You're adding 2 and 2 and getting 5. At least educate yourself and you'll realise how silly it is :)
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If you want to cast nationalist blame, Europe has always led the way, from the early days of cycling. Lance Armstrong went to Europe to learn how to cheat.

Nobody wants to talk about Messi's use of HGH, you'd rather shut it out and pretend it's not a factor. So little attention is paid to PED use in football.

@Marcosdeto US sports has nothing to do with Messi's use of performance enhancing drugs. Other clubs have nothing to do with it. Calling me names has nothing to do with it. Just distractions from actually discussing the issue.
 
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