Lionel Messi - Performances

The comments that Messi has "failed" on the International stage is utter tripe. Higuain should have scored yesterday, and Messi created 2/3 of Argentina's best chances. Started the move for that Higuain miss and sent in a lovely freekick for Aguero's header to be saved.

Let's not forget Higuain missing a massive chance in the World Cup final, as well as Palacio missing a chance in extra time too.

Argentina should really have won the last two finals. Bottled both. Messi isn't to blame for that. There's only so much a player can do. His defensive work yesterday was awful at times yesterday, but he was still Argentina's best attacker. He didn't shy away from the situation. How many times was he taken out once he started his swaying runs?
 
You're joking, right? Holland had the poorest team from top teams. They overachieved.

FFS, their defense wouldn't been out of place for a midtable EPL team, and their midfield was even worse. They had two world class players, one of which was playing the best football of his career (and IMO was by far the best player in WC) and LVG made the team completely dependent on him, while playing 5 defenders and 2 defensive midfielders.

Argentina had Messi, Aguero and Di Maria among others who were in top 10 players in the world. They had a very good defense too.

You just proved my point. Aguero and Di Maria were rotten and struggled with fitness, football isn't played on paper.

Yeah Holland were a more solid unit, better midfield, van persie up top.
 
He was alright. Agree with your point though. Of course this should also count for DI Maria who had a very good tournament up until yesterday.
Which tournament did you watch? Di Maria was horrible in general bar one and a half game.
 
Contrary to Caf's beliefs, goals matters. This is the fourth tournament in a row when Messi failed to score a single goal in KO stage despite playing 11 games. That is poor even for Welbeck's standards, let alone for one of the best goalscorers of all time. In fact, he managed to score in only one of those 4 tournaments (last year) in group stage. 4 goals in 23 matches is bad.

Doesn't really matter. Messi is not all about goals and he's been Argentina's best player in the last 2 major tournaments. Not as good as his Barcelona form for sure, but still pretty fecking good. He was Argentina's best player even in the 2010 world cup despite the shambles of Maradona albeit he didn't have a great game vs Germany in the knockouts.
 
Why do people behave as though international football is the gold standard?

Yeah exactly. Once every couple of years you put a player in a tournament with a load of players they're not used to and of varying quality where a single bad match can end the whole thing for you. Then if you don't win the thing, you get people claiming that that proves more than the previous 300 domestic and European matches where you've outperformed every other player in the world alive or dead.

Ok then..
 
Doesn't really matter. Messi is not all about goals and he's been Argentina's best player in the last 2 major tournaments. Not as good as his Barcelona form for sure, but still pretty fecking good. He was Argentina's best player even in the 2010 world cup despite the shambles of Maradona albeit he didn't have a great game vs Germany in the knockouts.
It does. If he had scored yesterday (or vs Germany), Argentina would have won those tournaments

Of course, he was Argie's best player. A footballer who has been in GOAT's debates for half a decade, should be the best player in his team. The problem is that his team hasn't delivered, and one of the reasons for that is Messi. Messi for Argentina isnt the best players in the world (or near it), let alone the best ever. His form for Barca is something else, but in the end both count.

You just proved my point. Aguero and Di Maria were rotten and struggled with fitness, football isn't played on paper.

Yeah Holland were a more solid unit, better midfield, van persie up top.
Was Chelsea a better team than Barca in 2012?

Anyway it is a nonsense debate, considering that Argentina outplayed and in the end defeated Holland. But on players quality, it wasn't even near.

About Holland, RVP was knackered too, their defense was full of average (being a bit generous here) players and their midfield consisted of De Jong, De Guzman and Sneijder.
 
Would love to see what kind of player he would be for Everton or Malaga or some team on that level.

Why would he ever have to play for Malaga or Everton? I don't get this argument. Players of this calibre never play for mid-table teams.
 
It does. If he had scored yesterday (or vs Germany), Argentina would have won those tournaments

Of course, he was Argie's best player. A footballer who has been in GOAT's debates for half a decade, should be the best player in his team. The problem is that his team hasn't delivered, and one of the reasons for that is Messi. Messi for Argentina isnt the best players in the world (or near it), let alone the best ever. His form for Barca is something else, but in the end both count.


Was Chelsea a better team than Barca in 2012?

Anyway it is a nonsense debate, considering that Argentina outplayed and in the end defeated Holland. But on players quality, it wasn't even near.

About Holland, RVP was knackered too, their defense was full of average (being a bit generous here) players and their midfield consisted of De Jong, De Guzman and Sneijder.

It'll always surprise me how much people can convince themselves of things impossible to know with certainty. Like if Zidane had stayed on the pitch then France would have been World Cup winners in 06. Winning last night's final (and even the world cup final) wasn't exclusively linked with him scoring goals as they even managed to reach the final without him scoring that much. Why and how would his goals have guaranteed them the win in the final ?
 
The defending and general tenacity in this Copa America impressed me. Teams like Chile, Uruguay, Colombia took no prisoners. The moment Messi tried to gain a few yards he was immediately hacked down. Collectively teams were all over him and the refs played along. Apart from Medel's kick I don't think there was too much maliciousness involved either. I wish Europe was more like this.
 
His and your compatriot Maradona was at least as extraordinary a talent, and he pushed club and international teams to the pinnacle of achievement which, without him, wouldn't have won Jack Arthur Alexander Shit. Messi hasn't done that.
Too, we are not "Messi haters" for seeing this, and quit using language from the lexicon of tank fly boss walk jam nitty gritty you're listening to the boy from the big bad city.

eh? speak in english

and who is Jack Arthur Alexander the feck? even more, who cares?

you are not a Messi hater, you are just an unbiassed poster that happens to write here when messi's team doesnt win only to say it's messis fault
 
The defending and general tenacity in this Copa America impressed me. Teams like Chile, Uruguay, Colombia took no prisoners. The moment Messi tried to gain a few yards he was immediately hacked down. Collectively teams were all over him and the refs played along. Apart from Medel's kick I don't think there was too much maliciousness involved either. I wish Europe was more like this.

The physical level was very good and the referees did a great job allowing football to be played instead of resorting to handing out cards for every challenge. Can't believe Maradona(and plenty of others) were so great even if the opponents were allowed to defend far harder than they did yesterday.

 
It does. If he had scored yesterday (or vs Germany), Argentina would have won those tournaments

Of course, he was Argie's best player. A footballer who has been in GOAT's debates for half a decade, should be the best player in his team. The problem is that his team hasn't delivered, and one of the reasons for that is Messi. Messi for Argentina isnt the best players in the world (or near it), let alone the best ever. His form for Barca is something else, but in the end both count.


Was Chelsea a better team than Barca in 2012?

Anyway it is a nonsense debate, considering that Argentina outplayed and in the end defeated Holland. But on players quality, it wasn't even near.

About Holland, RVP was knackered too, their defense was full of average (being a bit generous here) players and their midfield consisted of De Jong, De Guzman and Sneijder.

Argentina outplayed Holland? That's one god awful revisionist memory you've got :lol:
 
Few of our fans (United fans and not even Argentinians) spend more time in the Messi thread than discussing United players or topics. I find this "obsession" a bit weird tbh.
 
Not really. Only Germany and Spain were supposed to have better teams than Argentina.

I have always been a big fan of Messi and rate his as the best, but in order to cement his legacy he should do something in International Stage. Argentina has had a great team but still cannot win. While it can be argued that the players let him down, it is not that Messi was so excellent in these 2 tournaments. Also, it isn't that Maradona had better teammates than Messi, in fact this Argentina team (player for player) is better than Maradona's.

It depends how history will give weight to these tournaments, but I wouldn't be surprised if he is remembered in the tier of Di Stefano/Cruyff instead of Pele/Maradona cause of his lack of success for Argentina. After all if Cruyff would have won the WC in 1974 and Di Stefano would have won a world cup (he should have played in one first), they would have been remembered every bit as good as Pele/Maradona. While now, the International football isn't as important as before (when it was almost the only thing that matters), it is still important and it can be used in arguments about why Messi wasn't as good as Pele.
I have no idea why this myth of Argentina being a great team continues. It's as if people just read the squad names rather than watching the actual football. It's a team without a midfield who play disjoint football. France were a great team earlier. Spain after that. Germany after that. Argentina are just big names and no coherent football. And he did really well in the World Cup.

Ah player for player it's better than MAradona's? Then player for player United were better than Liverpool in 13-14. But we all know how that turned out right? Individuals don't play football, teams do. Messi had a really good World Cup, has shat on league football and Europe. Everyone wants perfection but it doesn't happen. That's life. At Barcelona in the cl final his work lead to three goals. For Argentina higuain misses the chance he sets up. Maybe he could above played better but like I said it's also a team sport.
 
Not really. Only Germany and Spain were supposed to have better teams than Argentina.

I have always been a big fan of Messi and rate his as the best, but in order to cement his legacy he should do something in International Stage. Argentina has had a great team but still cannot win. While it can be argued that the players let him down, it is not that Messi was so excellent in these 2 tournaments. Also, it isn't that Maradona had better teammates than Messi, in fact this Argentina team (player for player) is better than Maradona's.

It depends how history will give weight to these tournaments, but I wouldn't be surprised if he is remembered in the tier of Di Stefano/Cruyff instead of Pele/Maradona cause of his lack of success for Argentina. After all if Cruyff would have won the WC in 1974 and Di Stefano would have won a world cup (he should have played in one first), they would have been remembered every bit as good as Pele/Maradona. While now, the International football isn't as important as before (when it was almost the only thing that matters), it is still important and it can be used in arguments about why Messi wasn't as good as Pele.

Cruyff is not in the top tier? Im Dutch so for me and other Dutchies he is in the highest tier. Is he really not rated in the highest tier in other countries? He was one the best players of all time, part of inventing "total football" and responsible for reawaking Barcelona when he went there. Also he was succesfull as a manager with Barcelona and his dreamteam.
 
The defending and general tenacity in this Copa America impressed me. Teams like Chile, Uruguay, Colombia took no prisoners. The moment Messi tried to gain a few yards he was immediately hacked down. Collectively teams were all over him and the refs played along. Apart from Medel's kick I don't think there was too much maliciousness involved either. I wish Europe was more like this.

I'm glad Europe is not like this. Systematic fouling shouldn't be allowed. Players need to be punished for repetitive fouling, it's a stain on the game.
 
Cruyff is not in the top tier? Im Dutch so for me and other Dutchies he is in the highest tier. Is he really not rated in the highest tier in other countries? He was one the best players of all time, part of inventing "total football" and responsible for reawaking Barcelona when he went there. Also he was succesfull as a manager with Barcelona and his dreamteam.

Cruyff is easily in the top tier of players, i rate him even higher then Maradona....
 
Bottler in big international game again.. Quite disappointed really, but he is still one of the greatest alongside with Pele and Maradona, based on his club form.
 
The defending and general tenacity in this Copa America impressed me. Teams like Chile, Uruguay, Colombia took no prisoners. The moment Messi tried to gain a few yards he was immediately hacked down. Collectively teams were all over him and the refs played along. Apart from Medel's kick I don't think there was too much maliciousness involved either. I wish Europe was more like this.

Hacking down a player is nothing to be impressed about. It's about the easiest and most coward way of defending.
 
The defending and general tenacity in this Copa America impressed me. Teams like Chile, Uruguay, Colombia took no prisoners. The moment Messi tried to gain a few yards he was immediately hacked down. Collectively teams were all over him and the refs played along. Apart from Medel's kick I don't think there was too much maliciousness involved either. I wish Europe was more like this.

Its terrible viewing and I agree with @Bob Loblaw on this. Uruguay are the pioneers of this way of playing in South America.
 
Absolutely and why Dani is a club legend, IMO. Overlooked as well is how much of a monster talent Alves was at Sevilla - I can't recall a defender that was more imposing than him at both ends of the pitch

Indeed, I did bit of an internet thing and I recalled that Sevilla vs Arsenal game where he was owning Henry.
 
Hacking down a player is nothing to be impressed about. It's about the easiest and most coward way of defending.
some people rather watch a foul than a goal

i remember how maradona was hacked down by an italian in 1982 and i read about pele in 1962

great fouls, and the world misssed to watch two of the best players in history do their magic
 
some people rather watch a foul than a goal

i remember how maradona was hacked down by an italian in 1982 and i read about pele in 1962

great fouls, and the world misssed to watch two of the best players in history do their magic

I'm impressed when Messi gets dispossessed regularly without fouls (Valdivia did it a few times), fouling should be only a last resort and not when as soon as he touches the ball.
 
Cruyff is not in the top tier? Im Dutch so for me and other Dutchies he is in the highest tier. Is he really not rated in the highest tier in other countries? He was one the best players of all time, part of inventing "total football" and responsible for reawaking Barcelona when he went there. Also he was succesfull as a manager with Barcelona and his dreamteam.
He's my favorite player that I haven't seen playing week in week out, but I think that he isn't rated as much as Pele/Maradona but more in the level of Di Stefano and Beckenbauer. Of course, it depends how big you make the tier (if it is 2 then usually it is Pele/Maradona; if you make it a bit bigger than surely Cruyff belongs there).
 
Since we are having the usual routine of 'is Messi GOAT' debate, I wonder how many players in last 10-15 was in contention? Zidane, Ronaldinho, R9? Who among them including Messi would be remembered as better player?

I was trying to dig some numbers for Maradona @ Napoli. Just looking into NT performance is very biased obviously.

Maradona's 115 goals at Napoli
penalties: 41
free-kicks: 26
Goals after dribbling 0 players: 37
dribbling 1 player: 9
dribbling 2 players: 1
dribbling 3 players: 1


His free-kicks are amazing, one of his underrated skills. But his 'solo' goals are very less compared to what I would have assumed. Can someone verify this?
 
I have no idea why this myth of Argentina being a great team continues. It's as if people just read the squad names rather than watching the actual football. It's a team without a midfield who play disjoint football.

Argentina are not a great team in part because Messi has failed to make them a great team. That's his responsibility as the supposed best player of all-time. We're not talking about Messi transforming this team into the Dutch team of the 70s, we're just talking about him emulating Zidane in 2006, for example - creating a functional, if unspectacular, team with a standout player that can be relied upon to control the flow of the game against any team. Before Zidane came back into that team they were dysfunctional, disjointed, uninspired and lacking any kind of cohesion in midfield. That's more or less how Argentina have looked in at least 3/4 of their games with Messi in the team in the last two tournaments.

Argentina's defence (inc. Mascherano) has proven itself to be quite formidable over the last year or so with 8 clean sheets in 13 games in the World Cup and Copa America, so they've got a good base to work from there. It's not a star-studded defence by any means but they've worked quite well together. The problem is with their attack - they scored one goal or less in 9 of those 13 games. That's very, very poor. Messi as the chief playmaker and most prolific goalscorer naturally bears the majority of the responsibility for the cohesion, fluency and all-round threat of their attack and, given the talent he possesses, I don't think it's an exaggeration at all to say he's failed to live up to expectations. He was relatively good in both tournaments but far, far below his best - even if we just look at his time in the national shirt.

International success isn't the be all and end all but what Cruyff, Pelé, Platini, Maradona, Eusébio, Beckenbauer etc. did on the international stage which cemented their legacy was impose themselves on their national team in a way Messi or Ronaldo have never come close to. It wasn't their success that was so impressive, it was the fact that they were the quite clearly the key to making those teams tick, they created that cohesion, they were able to rise above the limitations of national football and create something beautiful. The excuses that get thrown out to defend Messi/Ronaldo and attack the credibility and value of international football are applicable to all of these players too.

The main explanation for Messi's failing is that he doesn't train with these players on a regular basis so how could he possibly hope to replicate anything like the kind of cohesiveness and fluidity in his play with a bunch of relative strangers. It's true, that's a significant challenge, but it's a challenge the vast majority of great players have been forced to (and been able to) overcome.

  • In the 1986 World Cup final only three players from that Argentina team played together at the same club side - Pumpido, Ruggeri and Enrique. The other 9 players (incl. the one sub) played for 9 different teams. Argentina's attacking trio of Maradona (Napoli), Burruchaga (Nantes) and Valdano (Madrid) played in three different countries.
  • This Argentina team in 2015 had four groups of players who played in the same team: Zabaleta, Demichelis and Aguero; Rojo and di María; Mascherano and Messi; Pastore and Lavezzi. All in all there were 9 different clubs represented in the Argentina team that played in the final yesterday (incl. the three subs) compared to 10 different clubs represented in the 1986 team (from a smaller squad).

That underlines the main point here about why international football is just as important as ever for judging the "greatness" of some players. The top players are all clustered together in a small group of elite clubs in a way they weren't in Maradona's time and previously, so the modern greats are afforded a tremendous luxury in the sense that they play in the kind of superclubs that just didn't exist in the past - or at least only existed once in a blue moon. International football however is much the same. The same challenges exist, the distribution of talent is the same, the format of the competitions are the same, the standard remains largely the same. It's easy to make direct comparisons between players in international football because it remains largely unchanged on all of those levels.

Messi has established that in a cohesive, fluid, attacking team filled with superstars he can rise above them all and stand out as a truly once in a generation kind of talent. That's proven beyond all doubt and it's a tremendous achievement that no-one will dispute. However to establish himself as something beyond that - to establish himself as the once in a century talent that people are talking about - then it's not unreasonable for people to think he needs to go outside of his comfort zone and establish himself once more, establish himself as being unparalleled no matter the circumstances or the environment he's playing in. Both of these two international tournaments have provided him with the perfect platform to do that and he just hasn't, and I personally think it's a tremendous shame.
 
Argentina are not a great team in part because Messi has failed to make them a great team. That's his responsibility as the supposed best player of all-time. We're not talking about Messi transforming this team into the Dutch team of the 70s, we're just talking about him emulating Zidane in 2006, for example - creating a functional, if unspectacular, team with a standout player that can be relied upon to control the flow of the game against any team. Before Zidane came back into that team they were dysfunctional, disjointed, uninspired and lacking any kind of cohesion in midfield. That's more or less how Argentina have looked in at least 3/4 of their games with Messi in the team in the last two tournaments.

Argentina's defence (inc. Mascherano) has proven itself to be quite formidable over the last year or so with 8 clean sheets in 13 games in the World Cup and Copa America, so they've got a good base to work from there. It's not a star-studded defence by any means but they've worked quite well together. The problem is with their attack - they scored one goal or less in 9 of those 13 games. That's very, very poor. Messi as the chief playmaker and most prolific goalscorer naturally bears the majority of the responsibility for the cohesion, fluency and all-round threat of their attack and, given the talent he possesses, I don't think it's an exaggeration at all to say he's failed to live up to expectations. He was relatively good in both tournaments but far, far below his best - even if we just look at his time in the national shirt.

International success isn't the be all and end all but what Cruyff, Pelé, Platini, Maradona, Eusébio, Beckenbauer etc. did on the international stage which cemented their legacy was impose themselves on their national team in a way Messi or Ronaldo have never come close to. It wasn't their success that was so impressive, it was the fact that they were the quite clearly the key to making those teams tick, they created that cohesion, they were able to rise above the limitations of national football and create something beautiful. The excuses that get thrown out to defend Messi/Ronaldo and attack the credibility and value of international football are applicable to all of these players too.

The main explanation for Messi's failing is that he doesn't train with these players on a regular basis so how could he possibly hope to replicate anything like the kind of cohesiveness and fluidity in his play with a bunch of relative strangers. It's true, that's a significant challenge, but it's a challenge the vast majority of great players have been forced to (and been able to) overcome.

  • In the 1986 World Cup final only three players from that Argentina team played together at the same club side - Pumpido, Ruggeri and Enrique. The other 9 players (incl. the one sub) played for 9 different teams. Argentina's attacking trio of Maradona (Napoli), Burruchaga (Nantes) and Valdano (Madrid) played in three different countries.
  • This Argentina team in 2015 had four groups of players who played in the same team: Zabaleta, Demichelis and Aguero; Rojo and di María; Mascherano and Messi; Pastore and Lavezzi. All in all there were 9 different clubs represented in the Argentina team that played in the final yesterday (incl. the three subs) compared to 10 different clubs represented in the 1986 team (from a smaller squad).
That underlines the main point here about why international football is just as important as ever for judging the "greatness" of some players. The top players are all clustered together in a small group of elite clubs in a way they weren't in Maradona's time and previously, so the modern greats are afforded a tremendous luxury in the sense that they play in the kind of superclubs that just didn't exist in the past - or at least only existed once in a blue moon. International football however is much the same. The same challenges exist, the distribution of talent is the same, the format of the competitions are the same, the standard remains largely the same. It's easy to make direct comparisons between players in international football because it remains largely unchanged on all of those levels.

Messi has established that in a cohesive, fluid, attacking team filled with superstars he can rise above them all and stand out as a truly once in a generation kind of talent. That's proven beyond all doubt and it's a tremendous achievement that no-one will dispute. However to establish himself as something beyond that - to establish himself as the once in a century talent that people are talking about - then it's not unreasonable for people to think he needs to go outside of his comfort zone and establish himself once more, establish himself as being unparalleled no matter the circumstances or the environment he's playing in. Both of these two international tournaments have provided him with the perfect platform to do that and he just hasn't, and I personally think it's a tremendous shame.
So international football has to be the defining criteria of greatness? Messi and Di Stefano's club dominance, which was much greater than Maradona's doesn't count in these comparisons?

And didn't Messi do the whole dragging his team to the final thing last year already? They would have been out by the group stage if I wasn't for him. Nor got past their quarter final and round of 16 opponents either. Zidane did cost his team at the end of that World Cup btw.

Let's take this last season. Barca looked disjoint and frail in midfield and there was simply no creativity coming from midfield. They were 4 points behind Madrid. Forward 5 months, Messi has played both main creator and main scored at the same time, and they've won a historic treble. That's not influence and pulling a team together?

My point is that all these greats gave their own achievements. Maradona's has those few league titles at Napoli and the World Cup 86. Zidane has mostly, France and the Cl with Madrid. Messi has record breaking goal scoring feats and dominance in la liga and 3 Cls. None of them have just that. Maradona's must have done other things. Zidane had other successs. Messi has made two big finals. But yeah they all have their own achievements. No one aces everything.
 
Argentina are not a great team in part because Messi has failed to make them a great team. That's his responsibility as the supposed best player of all-time. We're not talking about Messi transforming this team into the Dutch team of the 70s, we're just talking about him emulating Zidane in 2006, for example - creating a functional, if unspectacular, team with a standout player that can be relied upon to control the flow of the game against any team. Before Zidane came back into that team they were dysfunctional, disjointed, uninspired and lacking any kind of cohesion in midfield. That's more or less how Argentina have looked in at least 3/4 of their games with Messi in the team in the last two tournaments.

Argentina's defence (inc. Mascherano) has proven itself to be quite formidable over the last year or so with 8 clean sheets in 13 games in the World Cup and Copa America, so they've got a good base to work from there. It's not a star-studded defence by any means but they've worked quite well together. The problem is with their attack - they scored one goal or less in 9 of those 13 games. That's very, very poor. Messi as the chief playmaker and most prolific goalscorer naturally bears the majority of the responsibility for the cohesion, fluency and all-round threat of their attack and, given the talent he possesses, I don't think it's an exaggeration at all to say he's failed to live up to expectations. He was relatively good in both tournaments but far, far below his best - even if we just look at his time in the national shirt.

International success isn't the be all and end all but what Cruyff, Pelé, Platini, Maradona, Eusébio, Beckenbauer etc. did on the international stage which cemented their legacy was impose themselves on their national team in a way Messi or Ronaldo have never come close to. It wasn't their success that was so impressive, it was the fact that they were the quite clearly the key to making those teams tick, they created that cohesion, they were able to rise above the limitations of national football and create something beautiful. The excuses that get thrown out to defend Messi/Ronaldo and attack the credibility and value of international football are applicable to all of these players too.

The main explanation for Messi's failing is that he doesn't train with these players on a regular basis so how could he possibly hope to replicate anything like the kind of cohesiveness and fluidity in his play with a bunch of relative strangers. It's true, that's a significant challenge, but it's a challenge the vast majority of great players have been forced to (and been able to) overcome.

  • In the 1986 World Cup final only three players from that Argentina team played together at the same club side - Pumpido, Ruggeri and Enrique. The other 9 players (incl. the one sub) played for 9 different teams. Argentina's attacking trio of Maradona (Napoli), Burruchaga (Nantes) and Valdano (Madrid) played in three different countries.
  • This Argentina team in 2015 had four groups of players who played in the same team: Zabaleta, Demichelis and Aguero; Rojo and di María; Mascherano and Messi; Pastore and Lavezzi. All in all there were 9 different clubs represented in the Argentina team that played in the final yesterday (incl. the three subs) compared to 10 different clubs represented in the 1986 team (from a smaller squad).
That underlines the main point here about why international football is just as important as ever for judging the "greatness" of some players. The top players are all clustered together in a small group of elite clubs in a way they weren't in Maradona's time and previously, so the modern greats are afforded a tremendous luxury in the sense that they play in the kind of superclubs that just didn't exist in the past - or at least only existed once in a blue moon. International football however is much the same. The same challenges exist, the distribution of talent is the same, the format of the competitions are the same, the standard remains largely the same. It's easy to make direct comparisons between players in international football because it remains largely unchanged on all of those levels.

Messi has established that in a cohesive, fluid, attacking team filled with superstars he can rise above them all and stand out as a truly once in a generation kind of talent. That's proven beyond all doubt and it's a tremendous achievement that no-one will dispute. However to establish himself as something beyond that - to establish himself as the once in a century talent that people are talking about - then it's not unreasonable for people to think he needs to go outside of his comfort zone and establish himself once more, establish himself as being unparalleled no matter the circumstances or the environment he's playing in. Both of these two international tournaments have provided him with the perfect platform to do that and he just hasn't, and I personally think it's a tremendous shame.


Great post.
 
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it's funny how (for some people) it's always Messi who has to do this and has to do that, never the player he's being compared to, in this case Maradona. Maradona doesn't need comparable trophy haul, doesn't need champions league succes, doesn't even need Copa, doesn't need so many personal awards and it seems the fact he failed in Spain also isn't important... but he has one world cup trophy that apparently shits all over Messi's career. which is far from over, btw.
 
it's funny how (for some people) it's always Messi who has to do this and has to do that, never the player he's being compared to, in this case Maradona. Maradona doesn't need comparable trophy haul, doesn't need champions league succes, doesn't even need Copa, doesn't need so many personal awards and it seems the fact he failed in Spain also isn't important... but he has one world cup trophy that apparently shits all over Messi's career. which is far from over, btw.

So true.

It's not like Messi's international career has been poor either even if he never wins a WC. But it's Messi's fault that Argentina aren't a great team. Christ.