Using Suarez's Liverpool form to make your point really isn't just. For starters, he moved to a completely different league in a different country, with a very different play style, no longer being the focal point of attack for an average team playing in an inferior league to the La Liga. He might have been a beast at Liverpool but the beginning of his Barca career was nothing special and Messi really was pulling Barca wins out of piss average performances at the start of the season. Neymar and Suarez both weren't very special at the start of this season, as the season went on and they started growing more familiar is when they started playing as well as they are now.
Lionel Messi - Performances
- Thread starter Rado_N
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Using Suarez's Liverpool form to make your point really isn't just. For starters, he moved to a completely different league in a different country, with a very different play style, no longer being the focal point of attack for an average team playing in an inferior league to the La Liga. He might have been a beast at Liverpool but the beginning of his Barca career was nothing special and Messi really was pulling Barca wins out of piss average performances at the start of the season. Neymar and Suarez both weren't very special at the start of this season, as the season went on and they started growing more familiar is when they started playing as well as they are now.
He is probably the greatest club player of all time (him, Pele or Di Stefano), and as he is still "young" and could still win a few more, he probably would be the greatest. On international stage, some suggest it's irrelevant as club>country or CL>WC nowadays, or whatever. But career-wise he would be up there alongside with Pele and Maradona for sure, I think.
Suarez was probably the best striker in the world before joining Barca though, that's what I honestly thought, even though I really hate him.
I don't doubt that. What he did for that piss poor Liverpool side speaks wonders, if not the best he was certainly up there. Argument was more based towards the notion that he was always so good for Barca when his start really wasn't anything to write home about.
Aye, people really forget how underwhelming Barca were over the initial stages of the season, with Messi almost single-handedly carrying them at times. Whilst Neymar was banging in the goals, it was Messi who was orchestrating play and laying it on the plate for others more often than not. It's fair to say we got to see the best of Barca when that forward trio finally clicked together but only Messi played to a consistent high standard throughout the season (apart from a few slight dips here and there).
Players need time to adapt in new environment, besides he has been suspended for long, I don't see anything unusual with his start.
Like I said people are too obsessed with the mythical concept of players carrying teams.
For me, what shows his quality is that Messi can step on to a football pitch with Suarez, Ibrahimovic, Neymar, Silva etc. and look like genuinely on a different level to all of them. And consistently.
For me, what shows his quality is that Messi can step on to a football pitch with Suarez, Ibrahimovic, Neymar, Silva etc. and look like genuinely on a different level to all of them. And consistently.
Well said, it's impossible for the very best players to continue to carry their teams because the best players play in the best teams with other great players
Messi makes Neymar look like a right footed Andros Townsend
Hyperbole. Disagree.
My point was that both Neymar and Suarez record shows that they don't need Messi to flourish individually.
The irony of course is that the thread was first created to provide an opportunity to give tribute to the player since every other thread with him degenerated into the usual drivel from the haters. Yet, here we are again
We all know what they can do, infact we've seen them play better football without him than with him.
Most if not all the other players in the GOAT discussion played in a team as dominant as his. The fact that we've seen that without this team he's not that standard player is a major blight on his career.
Nope. Its about performance not winning. At Naples no one has any issues about his career there, in fact they call him god. Still bring banners and posters of him to every match.
What silly statement? That for half the tournament he walked around barely looking interested and not doing much to drive his team forward? That was the case. 0 goals 0 assists in the most important 3 games of the tournament basically tell the story.
The greatest players of all time, if you follow the sport you know who they are. He's not cause of the major international football question mark on his head. Something that'd need a miracle for him to shake off from now.
Yep, there you go. That about sums up your understanding of football, which is very little.
"not doing much to drive his team forward" despite me providing you evidence to dispell your bullshit. You can apologize for your posting whenever you're ready.
Maradona was a God to them, eh? He didn't live up to his expectations at Barcelona, the biggest club he played at, got into fights on the pitch and with club officials and left with within a short space of time, which involved some injuries too. He also used his hand to score a goal that resulted in his biggest achievement and was banned for using drugs. Oh, and still, never lit up Europe nor won like Messi did.
If Messi had done that I can't imagine your child-like response to that.
"A nothing player without using hand"
"Failed to shine at the European Cup, blight on his career, couldn't be an alltime Barca great"
The problem with these discussions is that there is no maturity to them. They're basically pot shot contests. Whether it is Messi-Ronaldo, Messi-Maradona or even posts in individual threads trying to belittle because you really don't like the chap, and possibly prefer someone else. I wouldn't be surprised if the ones that discuss like that are teenagers.
You've got only yourself to blame as you argue with RL to be fair.
I'll have to keep that in mind I guess. I thought he was a big Rooney fan or something but it's pretty obvious he's hugely biased.
The point about the World Cup is four-fold. First, it's about the stage. It's a one-in-four-year event. It remains the biggest tournament and occasion on the planet (even on a forum full of big-club fans like this one). It's the grandest stage to showcase your talent. Second, it's not necessarily about the standard but it's about the more challenging environment. While a well-oiled club side has two world-class players for every position, trains together all year round and can financially outmuscle 99% of its opponents, an international team doesn't have those luxuries. So influencing players who you only play with every couple of months and achieving something when you might have a couple of weak spots in your team becomes important. Third, international football generally stays the same over time. There are more nations competing and more games now, but effectively the big teams are as big as they were a quarter or half century ago. That's not the case in club football where the biggest club sides have become so powerful they routinely mop up 90-100 points a season (whereas a decade or longer ago a league was won with 70-85 points). The reduced competitiveness means it becomes harder to compare achievements in the club game from one generation to the next. Unless you're from a diddy country, then international football is a better way of comparing across generations. Fourth, when you get into the rarefied territory of these greatest of all time discussions, where the performance level is so incredibly high in all competitions, the standards by which these players are judged become more demanding. All of the players in that discussion - Pele, Beckenbauer, Maradona, Platini, Ronaldo, Cruyff, Zico and others - did sensational things in both the club game and the international game. Rightly or wrongly Di Stefano probably doesn't feature in the Pele/Maradona/Messi debate purely on the basis of his lack of a compelling international career. Yet like Messi his club career is as dominant as they come.
I have Messi in that top bracket. But all of that context above, and in other parts of the game, makes comparing across generations very difficult and actually proclaiming anyone as a cut above the rest frankly impossible to do.
well, dont you think he had a big impact of making that team so dominant? And while he is not that good(God mode) for Argentina he is still very good at worst and their best player in 99% of the games. And you cant really compare club football where you play with this players for 4, 5 days every few months, if Messi moved to i dont know, Arsenal and he didnt perform anywhere close to his Barca form then you would have a case.
Ooh, right on the honky.
Tell me when Neymar played better than he did this past season?
You know hating has reached extremes when people are implying Messi is holding his teammates back. Jesus christ.
Does it bother you that so many respected ex professionals who played at the highest level, already considered Messi to be the greatest of all time by the time he was about 26?
This is the most articulate illogical post I have read on this forum.
The fact that the World Cup is a one-in-four-year event itself counts against using it as a yard stick for a lot of things, including this particular debate. Since it happens once every four years, it depends more on luck than an event that happens every year because any number of thing can go differently in any player's career in those 2 months out of a 4 year time period.
zidane won the world cup playing 5 of the seven games because he got red carded
he scored 2 goals in the final game, no goals in the other games and
for some posters Zidane >>>>> messi
absurd
One of his poorest performances ever in an Arg shirt?? If so, mainly because he was almost invisible rather than "sloppy" I guess, although beyond the 60th minute there was very little he himself could do about that as the Arg DF kept blindly hoofing the ball forward for some reason. They weren't even trying to find him or impose any sort of MF control from that point on it just got so scrappy and end-to-end.
His WC final performance was much better compared to this... not excusing either performance, but it's also not as if he can afford to have them and then just have his team mates step up it seems. Also for his poor penalty taking reputation this was the 4th shoot-out he's taken part in and each time he converted his effort, also going first of his team each time as well.
Definitely one of the most anti-climactic performances of his career in my opinion. The WC final was far more predictable and I thought he had a far bigger impact on it anyway.
His WC final performance was much better compared to this... not excusing either performance, but it's also not as if he can afford to have them and then just have his team mates step up it seems. Also for his poor penalty taking reputation this was the 4th shoot-out he's taken part in and each time he converted his effort, also going first of his team each time as well.
Definitely one of the most anti-climactic performances of his career in my opinion. The WC final was far more predictable and I thought he had a far bigger impact on it anyway.
I just posted this in the copa thread
Not his worst, worst was when Argentina was beaten 4-0 by Germany but otherwise, this performance comes close.
Not a big deal really. He looks knackered after a grueling schedule of two international summers and a full league year, complete with a CL final.
I'd agree if not for his performance against Paraguay just a few days ago, which was plenty energetic. He didn't do enough in the 1st half when he at least saw some of the ball; 2nd half and ET were lost cause for Arg, they didn't even bother to use the MF, all they did was hoof it forward.
Half of the problem seems to be, imo at least, that he plays a far deeper role for Argentina than he does for Barca. They want him to be their play-maker because they have so many other attackers that it makes sense to use him there -- except it doesn't really because Messi is your best attacker and should be played where he's most likely to score.
Excuses for Messi that you would never give other players of his calibre. Him looking knackered over Aguero, ADM, and other players who have played a similar amount of matches at a similar level is no excuse. He has poor matches just like any other footballer. It's not a big deal per se, but he isn't world class for Argentina.
According to most on here, it doesn't matter where you play him as he would be the best player in the world no matter. Everyone making excuses. He's perfectly suited for the Barca team, but perhaps not to every other team?
he was argentina best player at copa and arguebly the best one with Mascherano at WC ffs.....
Except Messi had a longer CL campaign.
I enjoy watching teams try to snuff him out but it's always a shame when he doesn't really turn up. At his best he's like the elusive poo particle in the bathtub that you just can't catch.
He is perfectly suited to the Barca side, and might not replicate those performances outside of Barca, but playing him deeper won't help much. Messi can play in midfield and be very good, but up front as the focal point of the attack is where he is arguably the greatest player of all time. Argentina might possibly be suffering from the quality of their attacking options, seems like they're trying to fit players into the side at the cost of balance -- bit like us with RvP, Rooney and Falcao last season (though not quite as extreme).
Eh? I don't think fatigue was the main factor as to why Messi was disappointing tonight (as I mentioned in my post above) but that's downright dishonest... In 2014/15, Messi played 2,000 minutes more than Agüero and 3,000 more than Di María.