His point makes about as much sense as yours.
Lionel Messi - Performances
- Thread starter Rado_N
- Start date
Because the team wasn't good enough to be called favourites of any sort unlike last two world cups which makes his achievement even more impressive. As Marcus said
How long before I get labelled a Messi hater again haha. I've forgotten the last time I made a Post on this forum without regretting it. You guys are insane.
The only thing insane is your disproportionately odd response.
If we're going to reduce discussions to "but he won it" then those are the responses you'll get. Don't like it? Take it elsewhere. Thanks.
You've forced me to finally use the ignore function.
OH NO HE USED THE IGNORE FUNCTION ON ME.Hopefully you'll use it on the whole forum soon.
He's the best and is easily one of the best ever.
Not sure how that's even a valid response..
The World Cup is won by teams. Messi is one player. Maradona was the star player in a team that won it. There are a lot of other factors like the coach, team strength, opponent quality that goes into it.
The way some of you guys argue about this, it feels like if Messi had 6 ordinary games but Argentina won the WC then his claim to being the greatest player ever would be more credible. It's laughable how simplistic this perspective is.
He's lead his club team to titles season upon season in the same sport. You'd think the World Cup and CL/La Liga are different sports the way some of you argue.
Since you're an Indian, I'm going to draw a parallel.. imagine if Gambhir had fallen early and India failed to win the WC.. I am guessing you'd be that guy saying Sachin's claim to GOAT would be less credible in that scenario..
There is only one remaining argument: Argentina didn't beat Germany last year. That's it. There is absolutely nothing else to say about it imo...
See?
However, it's still not a good argument imo, because I find it a bit silly to ignore everything both players have done in their careers, and make the whole comparison all about two games, one where Burruchaga scored, and one where Palacio missed.
I don't agree with that. I'm sure there are other credible arguments in favor of the other greats like Pele and Maradona. I never really watched them but I don't think it's fair to say the only argument in their favor as the greatest is that Messi didn't win a close final.
His performance in the SF against Paraguay,
Like what? I don't think there is another argument other than the world cup. It's the only black and white difference between them (in which Messi is at a disadvantage).
Note here that there is a difference between an argument and a subjective opinion or a subjective perception. Football is also about taste, and everybody is entitled to have his own opinion about the game, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he has a good argument to support/justify his opinion.
It's not just about Messi winning a World Cup but also performing in a World Cup. Messi hasn't yet been the best player at a World Cup(He been average/poor in them so far) or created any special moments in a World Cup(Although that's slightly subjective). But even then there will rightly still be argument against and for Messi.
Again, wrong.
I don't know. I haven't seen the previous greats. I can't imagine a better player but many people call Maradona the greatest so he must have his own plus points.
Why ?
The world cup he was OK but nothing special or worth remember.Again it sounds harsh but we are comparing him to Madonna and Pele(So far Zidane out performers Messi in World Cups)
Because he actually had a very good world cup?
Who was worth remembering in the 2014 world cup? Just James Rodriguez?
I'm going to remember many player's performances. Messi, Rodrigez, Neuer, Robben etc.
Zidane was great but if he did play for an excellent France team whereas Argentina have been a disjoint team with barely any midfield for a long time now. The team does matter, which is the point many are making. Players don't perform in complete isolation of their team mates. Messi played the pass of the tournament in WC 2014, one of the best passes I've ever seen. Di Maria missed the chance that came from it. No biggie, it's a team sport.
We are going to have to agree to disagree with how Messi performed at the last World Cup(I think there's a fair argument to say Messi wasn't even Argentina best player in the tournament)
As for individual players mainly just Neuer and Robben (Van Persie's header will mostly likely be the highlight of that World Cup).
It's a slightly kop(If you don't mind me saying)with the Zidane comment. Argentina are in no way a bad team(It's not like Best and Northern Ireland)it can't be used as an excuse. I should point out I don't think Messi has to win a World Cup to be held up with the best(That's a shite argument)but he has to do something special at least, which I think is a fair expectation.
Again we comparing him to Maradona and Pele.
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I think he proved himself at the last world cup. He was the heart of his side and he's now got to two finals in two years. Noone has the perfect career at the end of the day. Zidane and Maradona never dominated at club level the way Messi did. You have to be from the right nationality and have the perfect team mates/ environment to ace everything.
And I don't think it's a kop out at all. It's just putting things in perspective. Argentina are in no way a great team. Just names . France were a great great side.
Agree to disagree on this one, then
Yep.I think he proved himself at the last world cup. He was the heart of his side and he's now got to two finals in two years. Noone has the perfect career at the end of the day. Zidane and Maradona never dominated at club level the way Messi did. You have to be from the right nationality and have the perfect team mates/ environment to ace everything.
And I don't think it's a kop out at all. It's just putting things in perspective. Argentina are in no way a great team. Just names . France were a great great side.
Agree to disagree on this one, then
Should just point out I don't think Messi is shite at international football(Although it does slightly come across like I'm saying that).
Bloody hell, how can we even have this discussion?
The Ronaldo vs Messi one at least makes sense, regardless of how boring it is, because they're players we've actually seen play again and again.
How many of us commenting on this discussion have seen Maradonna play? Or Pele? Or Cryuff? Or Puskas? Or Di Stefano? If you have seen them play, have you seen them play with the same regularity you likely have seen Messi play, analysed his performances every week?
It seems a strange topic to me to get so worked up about.
The Ronaldo vs Messi one at least makes sense, regardless of how boring it is, because they're players we've actually seen play again and again.
How many of us commenting on this discussion have seen Maradonna play? Or Pele? Or Cryuff? Or Puskas? Or Di Stefano? If you have seen them play, have you seen them play with the same regularity you likely have seen Messi play, analysed his performances every week?
It seems a strange topic to me to get so worked up about.
Simple yet brilliant analysis which I agree with. His every international performance will draw comparison with Maradona 86 and of course he will always come up short in that respect but some of the football I have seen from him this season in terms of big games has been the best I have seen from him.
It is a shame there was no world cup this year, cause he would be very close to emulating Diego in the form he is currently in.
So many excuses. We've seen great players in the past play for national teams that aren't based on a dominant club side and still manage to raise their level or maintain it. Its not like we're talking about we're talking about players that play with exceedingly poor teammates.
Somehow Di Maria, Aguero and Messi deserve an excuse for not playing together and practicing a gazzilion times a week yet Ronaldo, Dinho and Rivaldo pretty much met at world cup 2002 and lit it up.
Fact is Messi for argentina isn't anywhere close to Messi for barcelona and that's been the case for the vast majority of his international career. Messi for argentina isn't in a GOAT conversation let alone dominate it. That's too big a hole to just gloss over.
It goes beyond his talent and what he can do on the field. Its a test of his character and how he copes when the chips are down. How he copes with his team not always being ridiculously dominant. How he copes with the extra attention he gets from opposition players. He's been dressed up like Maradona with the 10 and the captains armband but he's played nothing like that for them. Seems like he couldn't be bothered half the time. There's no way on gods green earth anyone can tell me this is realistically the best he can do for them. If it is, perhaps he isn't what some vehemently claim him to be?
This isn't about whether his team wins or not(although given the level of player being discussed here him playing at his all time best would surely guarantee some great results), this is about what level he himself plays at. If Argentina had lost in the semi's at the WC last year and yet he had dominated the competition playing at GOAT levels, then that'd have counted more as a plus that those strolls he took in the competition. At least in my book anyways. Honestly, the best I've seen him play for argentina was in the 2010 world cup. I saw more greatness there than anything else he's done since.
Somehow Di Maria, Aguero and Messi deserve an excuse for not playing together and practicing a gazzilion times a week yet Ronaldo, Dinho and Rivaldo pretty much met at world cup 2002 and lit it up.
Fact is Messi for argentina isn't anywhere close to Messi for barcelona and that's been the case for the vast majority of his international career. Messi for argentina isn't in a GOAT conversation let alone dominate it. That's too big a hole to just gloss over.
It goes beyond his talent and what he can do on the field. Its a test of his character and how he copes when the chips are down. How he copes with his team not always being ridiculously dominant. How he copes with the extra attention he gets from opposition players. He's been dressed up like Maradona with the 10 and the captains armband but he's played nothing like that for them. Seems like he couldn't be bothered half the time. There's no way on gods green earth anyone can tell me this is realistically the best he can do for them. If it is, perhaps he isn't what some vehemently claim him to be?
This isn't about whether his team wins or not(although given the level of player being discussed here him playing at his all time best would surely guarantee some great results), this is about what level he himself plays at. If Argentina had lost in the semi's at the WC last year and yet he had dominated the competition playing at GOAT levels, then that'd have counted more as a plus that those strolls he took in the competition. At least in my book anyways. Honestly, the best I've seen him play for argentina was in the 2010 world cup. I saw more greatness there than anything else he's done since.
There have been times when Messi has carried Barca as much as any player could. I wouldn't doubt his character.
I'd say the fact he doesn't speak English is more of a factor in that regard.
To be fair he hasn't done much in the knockout stages, most of his good games are from the group stages. Great player who perform well in WC overall, but you are making him sound like he did it in Baggio fashion of '94 WC.. He's not.
This WC debate is hilarious. As if people trying to find anything to critize him somehow. I wonder if he had a WC like Ronaldo did, people would be asking him to leave football by now!
So how many players were better than Messi during this WC? and most importantly on what basis?
So how many players were better than Messi during this WC? and most importantly on what basis?
Messi performs heroics up until the R16 of the WC....but the next 3 games are tight affairs, nullifying Messi. He wins the POTT (debatably it could have gone to any one of Neuer, Robben, James but it's not as "outlandish" an award as people would have you believe)....yet now all of a sudden his performances at the WC for Argentina were "average".
You couldn't make this up. It's like people didn't watch Argentina and just keep on arguing the same line to discredit him. Aguero was shit. Higuain was shit. AdM played he like he did for us over the last 6 months of the season...shit. Argentina ended up depending on Lavezzi and Palacio.
It's like Messi was supposed to dribble solos in every game. He was literally the only attacker who showed up for Arg. at the WC.
Now at the Copa, he had a quiet group stage but have burst into life at the knockout rounds, showing his Barca form, or something very close to it. But yet some would still criticize his performances for his NT. Mind boggling.
You couldn't make this up. It's like people didn't watch Argentina and just keep on arguing the same line to discredit him. Aguero was shit. Higuain was shit. AdM played he like he did for us over the last 6 months of the season...shit. Argentina ended up depending on Lavezzi and Palacio.
It's like Messi was supposed to dribble solos in every game. He was literally the only attacker who showed up for Arg. at the WC.
Now at the Copa, he had a quiet group stage but have burst into life at the knockout rounds, showing his Barca form, or something very close to it. But yet some would still criticize his performances for his NT. Mind boggling.
It's more about the hyperbole on both sides: either he was amazing or shite. In reality he had a decent tournament, made some brilliant and decisive interventions in the first half of the competition, and not a lot after that. In that role I think James Rodriguez particularly was more influential in the build-up and not just the final ball or finish that Messi shone with. Robben too had a similar tournament and probably built a slightly more impressive body of work in Holland's games.
He'd be as good as Bebe probably.
I'm doubting this. Messi was almost Argentina's entire attack on the ball. He picked the ball up at the half way line, tried to build attacks and eventually also had to make the difference in the final third.
But either way, he was incredible, but he wasn't just decent either. He was very good. Rojo had a decent tournament. Messi and Robben had very good tournaments.
Doesn't count for that much considering the quality of attack from both sides, but I did think he was easily the best attacking player in the final.
But, as already said, he was literally the one Argentine doing anything more than feck all going forwards.
Incredible? That's why people go too far the other way and downplay his tournament. In the Bosnia and Iran games, goals apart, he was quiet and a little wasteful. He dictated more of the game in strong performances against both Nigeria and Switzerland. Fizzled out after the first-half of the Belgium game and the likes of Mascherano came to the fore during the remainder of the tournament.
Sorry I meant he wasn't incredible. That's the thing. No one is actually overplaying his tournament. At best were saying it was really good like Robben like the other best performers. The only overreacting is probably due to typos like mine
It's mostly underrating without much stretching the other wayFair enough. I don't like the under-rating either: it smacks of agenda-fitting.Sorry I meant he wasn't incredible. That's the thing. No one is actually overplaying his tournament. At best were saying it was really good like Robben like the other best performers. The only overreacting is probably due to typos like mine
Thing is if I think of great players in WC I wouldn't have Messi 2014 in my mind. What he did was basically scoring some fine goals and some impressive performances in early/group stages against the minors, and then did nothing much worth mentioning in Quarter, Semi and then Final. Overall I was more impressed with Argentina defensive display rather than Messi brilliance during the WC TBH.
Likewise. It was not a WC legends are made of.
Looking past that and evaluating who were the best and most influential attackers of the tournament, I do think Messi sits more or less on par with James and Robben as the best attacking player at the tournament.
By not affecting any of the last 3 knockout matches? More like they took him there after he went on holiday half way through the tournament.
Barca hasn't needed much carrying.