LGBTQ+ inclusion and Religion Debate in Football

nickm said:
Tell me why. It seems to me there are enough similarities. Is the problem that you agree that is was OK for James MClean not to wear a poppy?
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There is a huge gulf between a poppy appeal and this campaign.

Do you not see that?
 
I'm not wearing the symbols, so I would perso
SilentWitness said:
Think about what you're wearing a poppy for and what you'd be wearing a rainbow armband for and you should be able to figure it out.
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I'm not wearing the symbols, so it's not a problem for me, I'd probably choose to. But I wouldnt force someone else to wear them.
 
nickm said:
I'm not wearing the symbols, so I would perso

I'm not wearing the symbols, so it's not a problem for me, I'd probably choose to. But I wouldnt force someone else to wear them.
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And nobody was forced to.

They absolutely can be judged for not wearing it though.
 
nickm said:
They can but I dont think the club should be putting their players in that position in the first place
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So no football club should show public support and acceptance of homosexuality?

Or no football club should make any remotely political or social commentary?
 
the club did show support and acceptance though. just not for the side some of you were "rooting" for.
 
This thread just show how far we are apart in views as a society. It's scary.

The most evil thing is religion.
Q'uran
"Consummation of the marriage can occur any time after the guardian finds her "Ready for Intercourse". This can be before puberty. In that case fiqh uses different terminology. A girl can be "made to have sex" or "the husband performed intercourse""
Bible
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."

If any muslims or christians dont belive in this verses, why do you belive that being gay is a sin? Can you choose?
 
BenitoSTARR said:
Amorim put in a shit position having to explain the decision.

It does boil down to Mazraoui having an issue wearing it because of religion.


So the majority wanted to support it but dropped it because of one person’s homophobic views whether they are based in religion or not that is the crux of this.

I think it’s ridiculous. What about the culture of the club and of the UK in general? What about the community for which these campaigns support?
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Agreed that Amorim was put in a difficult spot, although he gave a very good answer , especially for a non native English speaker who has only been on the job a couple of weeks.
 
nickm said:
I'm not wearing the symbols, so I would perso

I'm not wearing the symbols, so it's not a problem for me, I'd probably choose to. But I wouldnt force someone else to wear them.
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As @BenitoSTARR says, nobody was forced to.

My point was that why you're wearing each symbol is very different.
Bole Top said:
the club did show support and acceptance though. just not for the side some of you were "rooting" for.
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They could have done both.
 
Raoul said:
Agreed that Amorim was put in a difficult spot, although he gave a very good answer , especially for a non native English speaker who has only been on the job a couple of weeks.
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I think his answer was the best thing he could say given he can’t throw anyone under the bus and it’s an incredibly difficult topic and one that there is no way for him to say something without it being somehow wrong.

Not his fault at all what happened and he at least gave the response that tries to make it ok.

It’s not ok, but he’s not made it any worse or added further fuel.
 
And also for those looking to say nobody should be forced to wear it, equally nobody should feel forced to not support a cause they agree with based on one persons religious belief.

The quote from Amorim indicates the majority of the players wanted to or were happy to wear it. So what we have is a situation where support wasn’t able to be given due to one person’s intolerance.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
And also for those looking to say nobody should be forced to wear it, equally nobody should feel forced to not support a cause they agree with based on one persons religious belief.

The quote from Amorim indicates the majority of the players wanted to or were happy to wear it. So what we have is a situation where support wasn’t able to be given due to one person’s intolerance.
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Most of the talk about force is because of nickm derailing the conversation, either on purpose or because of some seriously crossed wires. It must have happened ten times by now, impressive work if it's deliberate.
 
nickm said:
How remarkably tolerant!
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tolerant-left-1.jpg
 
BenitoSTARR said:
And also for those looking to say nobody should be forced to wear it, equally nobody should feel forced to not support a cause they agree with based on one persons religious belief.

The quote from Amorim indicates the majority of the players wanted to or were happy to wear it. So what we have is a situation where support wasn’t able to be given due to one person’s intolerance.
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As per Amorim’s remarks, wasn’t the choice a collective group decision to main squad solidarity by the entire team ?
 
nickm said:
They can but I dont think the club should be putting their players in that position in the first place
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You are lacking any perspective on the struggle of queer people. Completely. The club asked its players to show the world that it stands for the believe that all people are equal and shouldn’t face discrimination. Because queer people are being discriminated and suffer due to it worldwide, but also in England and especially within football. They are being discriminated so badly, that not a single player in that league has ever felt save enough to publicly stand by their homosexuality. They are being forced to hide their true personality every day, every hour and every second of their public lives and parts of their private lives. This is an absolutely horrible way to live one’s life. It’s inhumane and can make you sick.
The club asked its players to make a small gesture in support of the idea that queer people should be allowed and able to live life like everyone else. They didn’t ask for any political ideology to be promoted. Just a small gesture of humanity. That was it.
As football clubs are much more than businesses and serve as social and cultural institutions, they not only have the right to ask their players to stand for basic human rights and dignity, they have a responsibility to do so. At least if they intend on acting socially responsible.
United‘s mistake wasn’t to ask its players to show this incredibly small gesture that conveys an idea that should be the most normal thing in the world. Their mistake was to stand idly by as the team decided to side with discrimination instead of humanity and basic decency.
As a queer person myself, my disappointment with United is gigantic. The biggest sport club in England has refused to publicly stand by basic human decency in order to appease the radical and inhumane convictions of a single player.
And yet, you criticise them for asking Mazraoui to be a decent person to begin with. It’s mind boggling really and I struggle to maintain respect for you.
 
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HTG said:
You are lacking any perspective on the struggle of queer people. Completely. The club asked its players to show the world that it stands for the believe that all people are equal and shouldn’t face discrimination. Because queer people are being discriminated and suffer due to it worldwide, but also in England and especially within football. They are being discriminated so badly, that not a single player in that league has ever felt save enough to publicly stand by their homosexuality. They are being forced to hide their true personality every day, every hour and every second of their public lives and parts of their private lives. This is an absolutely horrible way to live one’s life. It’s inhumane and can make you sick.
The club asked its players to make a small gesture in support of the idea that queer people should be allowed and able to live life like everyone else. They didn’t ask for any political ideology to be promoted. Just a small gesture of humanity. That was it.
As football clubs are much more than businesses and serve as social and cultural institutions, they not only have the right to ask their players to stand for basic human rights and dignity, they have a responsibility to do so. At least if they intend on acting socially responsible.
United‘s mistake wasn’t to ask its players to show this incredibly small gesture that conveys an idea that should be the most normal thing in the world. Their mistake was to stand idly by as the team decided to side with discrimination instead of humanity and basic decency.
As a queer person myself, my disappointment with United is gigantic. The biggest sport club in England has refused to publicly stand by basic human decency in order to appease the radical and inhumane convictions of a single player.
And yet, you criticise them for asking Mazraoui to be a decent person to begin with. It’s mind boggling really and I struggle to maintain respect for you.
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Great post.
 
Raoul said:
As per Amorim’s remarks, wasn’t the choice a collective group decision to main squad solidarity by the entire team ?
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Yes, but the squad has worn these jackets in the past two seasons…

(source:https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/59...nbow-laces-future/?source=user_shared_article)

Given this week’s controversies, it is not hard to imagine Manchester United taking much the same view on the suddenly controversial matter of their rainbow-themed warm-up/walk-out jackets. The club’s players have worn them as part of their Rainbow Laces commitments for two seasons without, if we’re all honest, anyone really noticing.
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This is a club and group of players who have for 2 seasons in a row had no issue supporting publicly this exact cause? So while I don’t doubt that as a group they decided not to single out Mazraoui it still shows that something they were previously supporting they no longer felt they could because of one homophobic stance.
 
HTG said:
You are lacking any perspective on the struggle of queer people. Completely. The club asked its players to show the world that it stands for the believe that all people are equal and shouldn’t face discrimination. Because queer people are being discriminated and suffer due to it worldwide, but also in England and especially within football. They are being discriminated so badly, that not a single player in that league has ever felt save enough to publicly stand by their homosexuality. They are being forced to hide their true personality every day, every hour and every second of their public lives and parts of their private lives. This is an absolutely horrible way to live one’s life. It’s inhumane and can make you sick.
The club asked its players to make a small gesture in support of the idea that queer people should be allowed and able to live life like everyone else. They didn’t ask for any political ideology to be promoted. Just a small gesture of humanity. That was it.
As football clubs are much more than businesses and serve as social and cultural institutions, they not only have the right to ask their players to stand for basic human rights and dignity, they have a responsibility to do so. At least if they intend on acting socially responsible.
United‘s mistake wasn’t to ask its players to show this incredibly small gesture that conveys an idea that should be the most normal thing in the world. Their mistake was to stand idly by as the team decided to side with discrimination instead of humanity and basic decency.
As a queer person myself, my disappointment with United is gigantic. The biggest sport club in England has refused to publicly stand by basic human decency in order to appease the radical and inhumane convictions of a single player.
And yet, you criticise them for asking Mazraoui to be a decent person to begin with. It’s mind boggling really and I struggle to maintain respect for you.
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What a post!

Respect.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
Yes, but the squad has worn these jackets in the past two seasons…

(source:https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/59...nbow-laces-future/?source=user_shared_article)



This is a club and group of players who have for 2 seasons in a row had no issue supporting publicly this exact cause? So while I don’t doubt that as a group they decided not to single out Mazraoui it still shows that something they were previously supporting they no longer felt they could because of one homophobic stance.
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Its unfortunate, but given that it was the players themselves who made the decision, there's little anyone outside the team can do about it.
 
The message is clear we support you unless one of us is a homophobe then we’ll back them.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Pretty much. Team > all. Which is the mentality needed to win trophies. And that’s what Amorin was hired to do.
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But this is impossible to keep going for everything.

And surely if we're going for the idea of the team being "stronger together" or whatever, then Mazraoui should've stepped in line, since it seems like he was the only one to have had a problem with it? Unless we're assuming that the rest of the team's combined willingness to show a modicum of support was less than one man's wish to not take part, which would be disappointing.
 
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BD said:
But this is impossible to keep going for everything.

And surely if we're going for the idea of the team being "stronger together" or whatever, then Mazraoui should've stepped in line, since it seems like he was the only one to have had a problem with it?
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Of course. But queer people still lack agency. So the burden to fall in line usually falls on us. The so called middle of society barely misses an opportunity, to put the burden of creating unity on those, who are being discriminated instead of the actual perpetrators. They just don’t want to be bothered by the stress that would come from being actual allies.
 
BD said:
And surely if we're going for the idea of the team being "stronger together" or whatever, then Mazraoui should've stepped in line, since it seems like he was the only one to have had a problem with it?
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no, because he's also the only one actually caring about the act itself.

the rest are fine one way or another so they simply got behind him, not the cause.
 
Bole Top said:
no, because he's also the only one actually caring about the act itself.

the rest are fine one way or another so they simply got behind him, not the cause.
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I find that hard to believe. But maybe I'm just trying to convince myself that our squad isn't full of self-important cnuts.
 
BD said:
I find that hard to believe. But maybe I'm just trying to convince myself that our squad isn't full of self-important cnuts.
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they aren't cnuts, they just don't care enough. it's also not their fight, while this is literally their job.

we need to remember these guys kick the ball around for money. everything else you get from them is just a bonus.
 
Bole Top said:
they aren't cnuts, they just don't care enough. it's also not their fight, while this is literally their job.

we need to remember these guys kick the ball around for money. everything else you get from them is just a bonus.
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And? That doesn't mean they get a pass when choosing to support the homophobe rather than show acceptance of a group, including millions of LGBTQ+ fans, that faces discrimination and oppression.
 
HTG said:
You are lacking any perspective on the struggle of queer people. Completely. The club asked its players to show the world that it stands for the believe that all people are equal and shouldn’t face discrimination. Because queer people are being discriminated and suffer due to it worldwide, but also in England and especially within football. They are being discriminated so badly, that not a single player in that league has ever felt save enough to publicly stand by their homosexuality. They are being forced to hide their true personality every day, every hour and every second of their public lives and parts of their private lives. This is an absolutely horrible way to live one’s life. It’s inhumane and can make you sick.
The club asked its players to make a small gesture in support of the idea that queer people should be allowed and able to live life like everyone else. They didn’t ask for any political ideology to be promoted. Just a small gesture of humanity. That was it.
As football clubs are much more than businesses and serve as social and cultural institutions, they not only have the right to ask their players to stand for basic human rights and dignity, they have a responsibility to do so. At least if they intend on acting socially responsible.
United‘s mistake wasn’t to ask its players to show this incredibly small gesture that conveys an idea that should be the most normal thing in the world. Their mistake was to stand idly by as the team decided to side with discrimination instead of humanity and basic decency.
As a queer person myself, my disappointment with United is gigantic. The biggest sport club in England has refused to publicly stand by basic human decency in order to appease the radical and inhumane convictions of a single player.
And yet, you criticise them for asking Mazraoui to be a decent person to begin with. It’s mind boggling really and I struggle to maintain respect for you.
Click to expand...
Excellent post.
 
BD said:
But this is impossible to keep going for everything.

And surely if we're going for the idea of the team being "stronger together" or whatever, then Mazraoui should've stepped in line, since it seems like he was the only one to have had a problem with it? Unless we're assuming that the rest of the team's combined willingness to show a modicum of support was less than one man's wish to not take part, which would be disappointing.
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I reckon Maz was absolutely black and white about this. Which tends to be the nature of religious intolerance. And if the manager/club went hardline it would have meant a major fallout. He basically left his last club because of a disagreement over his principles after all.

I also suspect there’s a range of opinions amongst the rest of the squad about this initiative. From committed support to grudging compliance. Chances are the treatment of Maz would cause a split in the dressing room and by all accounts the very top of Amorim’s to do list is finding a way to unify a fractured squad. So this would be literally the last thing he would want to happen.

Don’t get me wrong. I find the whole thing very disappointing. But I do understand why the manager put the unity of his squad above all else.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I reckon Maz was absolutely black and white about this. Which tends to be the nature of religious intolerance. And if the manager/club went hardline it would have meant a major fallout. He basically left his last club because of a disagreement over his principles after all.

I also suspect there’s a range of opinions amongst the rest of the squad about this initiative. From committed support to grudging compliance. Chances are the treatment of Maz would cause a split in the dressing room and by all accounts the very top of Amorim’s to do list is finding a way to unify a fractured squad. So this would be literally the last thing he would want to happen.

Don’t get me wrong. I find the whole thing very disappointing. But I do understand why the manager put the unity of his squad above all else.
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You know, the Chinese use the same word for opportunity that they use for crisis.
 
Bole Top said:
they aren't cnuts, they just don't care enough. it's also not their fight, while this is literally their job.

we need to remember these guys kick the ball around for money. everything else you get from them is just a bonus.
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You grossly underestimate the complexity of football players' contracts.
 
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