don't back down
double down
double down
LGBTQ+ inclusion and Religion Debate in Football
- Thread starter SilentWitness
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doing the lord’s work.just stopped by to insult some germans and left
The point all the "he's just neutral about it" people seem to miss is that supporting equal rights for groups isn't like supporting a footballub
If you're neutral in a football match, cool. If you're neutral about treating people respectfully no matter their sexual prefrence, you're a cnut. It's like saying you don't want to promote people trying to get poachers to stop clubbing baby seals. You're either not okay with that or you're okay with that.
The "not promoting it" thing is just a cowardly cop out. You don't like homosexuality, at least own up to it and stop hiding behind your religion. Especially when playing in a league that's sponsored by a fecking beer brand. Pretty sure you'll burn for that as well then.
If you're neutral in a football match, cool. If you're neutral about treating people respectfully no matter their sexual prefrence, you're a cnut. It's like saying you don't want to promote people trying to get poachers to stop clubbing baby seals. You're either not okay with that or you're okay with that.
The "not promoting it" thing is just a cowardly cop out. You don't like homosexuality, at least own up to it and stop hiding behind your religion. Especially when playing in a league that's sponsored by a fecking beer brand. Pretty sure you'll burn for that as well then.
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Yup. 100% correct. The “cool with it but won’t promote it” cop out is so ridiculous. What does promoting it even look like? Getting out on the streets asking people to give being gay a crack?
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I think there are still more people than we realise/hope who believe that being gay is, at least in part, a choice. However they can read the room and instead approach the discussion from a different angle.
Otherwise known as being disingenuous. Rather than admit they have outdated, homophobic views they try move the conversation to not promoting a gay lifestyle, which has no actual meaning or relevance. Part of the reason this discussion has been 27 pages.
I had a large group of people come in the pub Saturday evening, I was showing the Formula 1 qualifying and a bloke asked if I could change the channel as he wanted to watch it at home, I said he could go to the other side of the pub where we were showing the rugby and it was ok as the football would be on in half an hour anyway. A woman I've seen before, must be in her 60's just said 'oh no, not bloody poofball'
She expected all her friends to laugh and agree but they all just looked at her uncomfortably. The bloke asked what game and I said 'United v Forest' and she again repeated 'poofball' and got the same reaction. She looked straight at me when she said it and I just shook my head in disgust like you would to a child being naughty.
I was tempted to ask her to leave or say something about her comment but the fact all her friends seemed embarrassed by her I just left it.
The point I'm trying to make is you always get people slagging football, especially as it's a huge rugby area here, but normally I'd have expected a few of the group at least to have joined in anf gone alone with her. It's a common thing to hear when football is mentioned in pubs, more often than not it's usually said in jest and a way of starting a rugby/football back and forth, but this woman definitely said it with malice and intent.
I was pleasantly surprised not one of the group said anything and their reaction to her was the icing on the cake for me. So I do think progress is being made and maybe a little more than I previously thought. I know it's just one small example, but for me it was a huge and ok pleasant shock.
She expected all her friends to laugh and agree but they all just looked at her uncomfortably. The bloke asked what game and I said 'United v Forest' and she again repeated 'poofball' and got the same reaction. She looked straight at me when she said it and I just shook my head in disgust like you would to a child being naughty.
I was tempted to ask her to leave or say something about her comment but the fact all her friends seemed embarrassed by her I just left it.
The point I'm trying to make is you always get people slagging football, especially as it's a huge rugby area here, but normally I'd have expected a few of the group at least to have joined in anf gone alone with her. It's a common thing to hear when football is mentioned in pubs, more often than not it's usually said in jest and a way of starting a rugby/football back and forth, but this woman definitely said it with malice and intent.
I was pleasantly surprised not one of the group said anything and their reaction to her was the icing on the cake for me. So I do think progress is being made and maybe a little more than I previously thought. I know it's just one small example, but for me it was a huge and ok pleasant shock.
Not that it matters but I’m sure she was using “poofy” to mean not as manly/tough as rugby rather than anything to do with sexuality. Gareth Thomas will always be the perfect riposte to any rugby fan who tries to equate toughness/manliness with sexuality.
I don't really see the difference to be honest. The way she said it, and repeated it with intent meant she clearly wanted a reaction either from her mates who she wanted to laugh at her or join in or from me knowing I'm a football fan, especially as I had my Stone Roses United shirt on at the time.
The way she said it clearly had a deeper connotation than just the suggestion of it not being as manly as rugby. That one always makes me laugh anyway as many rugby players are the biggest bunch of closeted honosexuals around. My young barman I had last year constantly told us stories of their games and initiations for new players. They all revolve around drinking from arses, joint masturbation over biscuits or doing lines of coke off arses or erect cocks. Not to mention how often they either finger or get fingered in matches. Apparently it's just a normal part of the game. Then I had to be lectured about my love of American Football, it was beyond ironic and never ceased to amaze me how he just didn't see that.
They went on tour to France this summer and he sent me pics of him and his teammates out on the piss and they were all wearing long blonde wigs and wearing budgie smugglers they bought from Budgiefans.
But yeah, football. ...
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I love that you are sure a woman you have never met, in an interaction you didn’t partake in, was meaning something in a way different to what the person actually present think it did.
You’re not asking if it could have been meant that way. You are not suggesting to give her the benefit of the doubt, you are actually sure it must have been meant differently.
No idea where you take that confidence from.
You’re really triggered by the word sure, aren’t you? Re-read that post, replacing the words “I’m sure” with “I suspect” if that helps. Either will do, from my perspective.
No, my argument is that properly run organisations don't do token gestures.
Ideally you do it properly as part of a corporate strategy which properly weighs the internal range of opinion, the tools available, the goals you want to set, gets the full buy in of all the people involved if needed, and works out the appropriate way to do it based on on that - before you do it.
ie don't half ass it as "token gesture" and then be surprised when it blows up in your face.
In general, I don't think United can afford these kind of PR mistakes at the moment.
You shouldn't be annoyed at Mazraoui, you should be annoyed at the clown in, presumably, the PR dept who let this happen.
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I've seen this argument before and I'm not sure it makes any difference?
It's based on the idea that gay men are somehow less, or not proper men?
Bad management and zero control of the narrative doesn't mean it was a token gesture. It was derailed without a doubt.
The reason for the latter is the former (the bolded).
By not making tolerance mandatory, you are giving the intolerants a chance to spew their intolerance and destroy society for the rest. That is what is happening. That's why "free speech" has become such a war cry for right wingers. They took over that concept and twisted it on their favour to freely spew their hate and destroy the fabrics of society.
It’s not an argument and it doesn’t make any difference, no. I just wanted to make the point that mentioning Gareth Thomas would have been a good retort to this elderly rugby fan. Not that someone that age is likely to change their ways.
Ah ok. I recently had a tedious exchange on here by PM with a poster saying that 'fairy' wasn't a homophobic slur and had nothing to do with sexuality and it just meant weak.
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No, by all means be annoyed at the homophobe.
Then be annoyed at him as well, but also… just don’t expect devoutly religious people to support positions that conflict with their beliefs, because they won’t.
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Yeah but there never was any expectation that Mazraoui had to support the cause.
The club has supported it two years running with zero issue so I’d expect everyone else who was doing it last year to also be fine with doing it this year unless they suddenly changed their position on the LGBTQ+ community.
But I wouldn’t expect someone with a homophobic outlook to want to support it no, of course not.
Exactly right, but then isn't it time to stop accepting someone's beliefs because of their religion? The use of religion as an excuse or defence is fecking archaic and it needs to stop. You can't use the text of books written over two thousand years ago as a defence for being a fecking hateful cnut today.
But the minute you say a word against the religion you are in the wrong. It's fecking bullshit.
Respect.
Brave move. Hopefully this lowers the bar for others.
Edit: though I see it’s already been a year since this happened
This is from a year ago?
What would Mazraoui do if we signed (or have already signed) a gay player? Would he refuse to pass them the ball? Is he against our women’s team as well? I’m done with United bending over backwards (or forwards, your pick, Mazraoui) to accommodate someone’s bias/bigotry.m, and worse, the club abandoning vulnerable people to assuage the ego of some millionaire football-playing troglodyte.
He would almost certainly get on with them as he does normally with his other colleagues, just in the same way many other religious people do across other walks of life.
Not sure what it has to do with the women’s team either.
There's levels to homophobia. The more quieter homophobic people are the people that would actively hate someone for their choices and cause a stir.
How would he react? We don't know. We do that his opinions are based on a religious doctrine and someone that does try to adhere to it without picking and choosing fights tends to be respectful of others despite disagreements. Not uncommon for rabbis, priests and imams to be friends in multicultural societies despite their big disagreements. Much like people who vote on the opposite spectrum could have a successful marriage whilst that might be a deal-breaker for others.
We've got no idea how big of a deal he made out of the training kit. Did he refuse to participate? Was it an all or nothing contract deal with Adidas? Did someone else make the decision for the team? If he was fine with doing like McClean does with the poppy and simply not wear the gear, I'd have much less of a problem with it than what actually happened or what Guehi did for example. Actively against the message is levels above worse than refusing participation and leaving it at that.
We don't know how he'd react, but I think we can safely assume he wouldn't be welcoming to a gay player, or supportive if a player decided to come out. And that's the problem. Being silent is not an answer, that whole "hate the sin but love the sinner" hogwash. Knowing there is a player in the first team who is hostile/dismissive/biased against gay players would chill the prospect of anyone admitting their sexuality if not het. Again, that's the problem. feck Mazraoui if that's how he really feels.
My guess is that he would not be the least welcoming. The bullies and the nasty people aren't so outwardly with their views that they know will perceived negatively on social media. Odds are several of our players are like that. For him it's different. It's seen as a virtue on social media.
I think it's okay to be intolerant of peoples intolerance.
Yep, that's common sense really.
obviously.
Without a doubt
These situations are a great way to weed out the homophobes in your life. The likes of anyone claiming it’s woke to wear a rainbow tracksuit. And it’s not just the religious bigots!
“…and shockingly, Mazraoui plays yet another under hit hospital ball to his new teammate, McRainbow…”
Late to this thread but 100% agree with this post
The only thing safe to assume is you've got no idea how he'd react.