LGBTQ+ inclusion and Religion Debate in Football

KirkDuyt said:
The point all the "he's just neutral about it" people seem to miss is that supporting equal rights for groups isn't like supporting a footballub

If you're neutral in a football match, cool. If you're neutral about treating people respectfully no matter their sexual prefrence, you're a cnut. It's like saying you don't want to promote people trying to get poachers to stop clubbing baby seals. You're either not okay with that or you're okay with that.

The "not promoting it" thing is just a cowardly cop out. You don't like homosexuality, at least own up to it and stop hiding behind your religion. Especially when playing in a league that's sponsored by a fecking beer brand. Pretty sure you'll burn for that as well then.
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Bit weird to claim that someone doesn’t like homosexuality and is only hiding behind religion.

I still don’t understand why people only deal in absolute, it has to be this or it’s that. You’re either fully supportive or you’re a part of the problem. It sounds naive as feck.

At the end of the day, it’s fully possible to be against promoting something because it’s against your own religion and could potentially have big consequences for you and your own family, while still being able as a human being to respect and treat others respectfully no matter their sexual preference and/or religion, without being a cnut. It’s the very reason most people go by with their daily business.
 
NotChatGPT said:
Bit weird to claim that someone doesn’t like homosexuality and is only hiding behind religion.

I still don’t understand why people only deal in absolute, it has to be this or it’s that. You’re either fully supportive or you’re a part of the problem. It sounds naive as feck.

At the end of the day, it’s fully possible to be against promoting something because it’s against your own religion and could potentially have big consequences for you and your own family, while still being able as a human being to respect and treat others respectfully no matter their sexual preference and/or religion, without being a cnut. It’s the very reason most people go by with their daily business.
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But this raises a question that was asked on the previous page, what does “promoting homosexuality” actually mean as you are using it here?

Wearing rainbow stuff isn’t telling people “you should drop what you’re doing and become gay!” It is a symbol that shows “we accept you and we are all equal” It is a symbol of equality, not promoting anything. And if a person has an issue with a message of equality or an issue with saying “we accept you” then I would say that that person is the issue. There is no debate to be had there.
 
NotChatGPT said:
Bit weird to claim that someone doesn’t like homosexuality and is only hiding behind religion.

I still don’t understand why people only deal in absolute, it has to be this or it’s that. You’re either fully supportive or you’re a part of the problem. It sounds naive as feck.

At the end of the day, it’s fully possible to be against promoting something because it’s against your own religion and could potentially have big consequences for you and your own family, while still being able as a human being to respect and treat others respectfully no matter their sexual preference and/or religion, without being a cnut. It’s the very reason most people go by with their daily business.
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Why do these same people have no qualms with gambling, alcohol or tobacco sponsors then? Pretty sure their God frowns upon that as well. Mazraoui for instance plays in a league sponsored by a gambling website and a beer brand. Pretty sure his omnipotent diety knows that even if it's not on an armband. Homosexuality is always the only really hard point to promote, because eeeew men holding hands. Denying that is more naive if you ask me.

Being "neutral" on acceptance of homosexuality is not actually neutral. And I get that it may have consequences for someone within their community, but the fault lies with the intolerant community. Acceptance doesnt come easy and it's harder for some, but I don't buy the "neutrality" point.
 
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NotChatGPT said:
Bit weird to claim that someone doesn’t like homosexuality and is only hiding behind religion.

I still don’t understand why people only deal in absolute, it has to be this or it’s that. You’re either fully supportive or you’re a part of the problem. It sounds naive as feck.

At the end of the day, it’s fully possible to be against promoting something because it’s against your own religion and could potentially have big consequences for you and your own family, while still being able as a human being to respect and treat others respectfully no matter their sexual preference and/or religion, without being a cnut. It’s the very reason most people go by with their daily business.
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What is being promoted isn’t homosexuality, but the idea that all men are equal, no matter the way they are born. To refuse this and hide behind religion as a way to escape criticism, your post being a sad proof that this works incredibly well, is just cowardly.
Religion is no excuse for outdated and discriminatory views. There is a whole bunch of actions that would be very much allowed by the Bible, the Quran or other religious books, that would lead to the person doing them risking imprisonment or exclusion from society. Because we as a society decided that these views are outdated and shouldn’t be applied in our time anymore. So why make an exception for homosexuality?
And the idea that a respectful treatment of a person you believe to be a sinner who goes to hell due to how they are born, is even possible, is absolutely deluded. I would not engage with a person who thinks that way about me. It’s insulting, humiliating and simply disrespectful.

You’re post sounds to me like something written by someone who’s just annoyed by the discussion and would rather everyone shut up, so you’re not bothered, instead of caring in any way, shape or form about the actual impact these things have on queer people. It’s a tiresome sentiment, where the idea of nuance and middle grounds is nothing more but a way to create a negative peace.
 
KirkDuyt said:
Why do these same people have no qualms with gambling, alcohol or tobacco sponsors then? Pretty sure their God frowns upon that as well. Mazraoui for instance plays in a league sponsored by a gambling website and a beer brand. Pretty sure his omnipotent diety knows that even if it's not on an armband. Homosexuality is always the only really hard point to promote, because eeeew men holding hands. Denying that is more naive if you ask me.

Being "neutral" on acceptance of homosexuality is not actually neutral. And I get that it may have consequences for someone within their community, but the fault lies with the intolerant community. Acceptance doesnt come easy and it's harder for some, but I don't buy the "neutrality" point.
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I think this is right on: Alcohol or gambling sponsorship doesn‘t mesh with Islam in any shape or form.

In my opinion, any staff we hire including players, should respect equal rights and tolerate diversity.

You can be Muslim or Christian and accept homosexuality, there are various levels of progressivism within the religions.

It remains a tricky concept because there‘s a tendency to carry things too far in today‘s world, with the ensuing backlash.

The line that must be drawn is equal treatment: we should not allow discrimination in any shape or form.

Refusal to wear a rainbow jacket to me says that one thinks it is ok to discriminate against certain groups.
 
NLunited said:
Refusal to wear a rainbow jacket to me says that one thinks it is ok to discriminate against certain groups.
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Really? I can think of lots of reasons not to wear such a jacket, that has nothing whatsoever to do with discrimination.
'Jumping to conclusions' is the way we get things wrong.
 
Cloud7 said:
But this raises a question that was asked on the previous page, what does “promoting homosexuality” actually mean as you are using it here?

Wearing rainbow stuff isn’t telling people “you should drop what you’re doing and become gay!” It is a symbol that shows “we accept you and we are all equal” It is a symbol of equality, not promoting anything. And if a person has an issue with a message of equality or an issue with saying “we accept you” then I would say that that person is the issue. There is no debate to be had there.
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100%
 
KirkDuyt said:
Why do these same people have no qualms with gambling, alcohol or tobacco sponsors then? Pretty sure their God frowns upon that as well. Mazraoui for instance plays in a league sponsored by a gambling website and a beer brand. Pretty sure his omnipotent diety knows that even if it's not on an armband. Homosexuality is always the only really hard point to promote, because eeeew men holding hands. Denying that is more naive if you ask me.

Being "neutral" on acceptance of homosexuality is not actually neutral. And I get that it may have consequences for someone within their community, but the fault lies with the intolerant community. Acceptance doesnt come easy and it's harder for some, but I don't buy the "neutrality" point.
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Also 100%
 
NotChatGPT said:
Bit weird to claim that someone doesn’t like homosexuality and is only hiding behind religion.

I still don’t understand why people only deal in absolute, it has to be this or it’s that. You’re either fully supportive or you’re a part of the problem. It sounds naive as feck.

At the end of the day, it’s fully possible to be against promoting something because it’s against your own religion and could potentially have big consequences for you and your own family, while still being able as a human being to respect and treat others respectfully no matter their sexual preference and/or religion, without being a cnut. It’s the very reason most people go by with their daily business.
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Why is it a 'bit weird' when Mazraoui is 100% hiding behind his religion here (as do the rest of Muslim footballers who refuse wear symbols, etc. when presented with the opportunity to appear even slightly accepting of LGBTQ rights)?

It's really not that hard to comprehend. It's all about religion, just like it is with Christian nationalists / evangelicals in my country. Religion simply cannot be so cavalierly dismissed as the reason.
 
If you don’t understand why your gay friends would be offended by this, or you don’t know why your gay friends would appreciate this display of support — then you don’t actually have any gay friends, you only know someone who is gay.
 
Maticmaker said:
Really? I can think of lots of reasons not to wear such a jacket, that has nothing whatsoever to do with discrimination.
'Jumping to conclusions' is the way we get things wrong.
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Lots of reasons? How about just one reason outside homophobia (religion-motivated or otherwise).
 
Maticmaker said:
Really? I can think of lots of reasons not to wear such a jacket, that has nothing whatsoever to do with discrimination.
'Jumping to conclusions' is the way we get things wrong.
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I mean, suffering from heatstroke or being allergic to the materials the jacket was made of are theoretical reasons not to wear the jacket, sure. But we know why he didn't wear it and the reason is homophobia.
 
Wing Attack Plan R said:
So his past actions and words mean nothing? Okay, brilliant!
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We can do a little case study here. Would you pass the ball to a Palestinian, or be able to work with one? Your racism is in another galaxy as far as explicitness goes, so if you can see yourself being able to then most people probably can.
 
KirkDuyt said:
Why do these same people have no qualms with gambling, alcohol or tobacco sponsors then? Pretty sure their God frowns upon that as well. Mazraoui for instance plays in a league sponsored by a gambling website and a beer brand. Pretty sure his omnipotent diety knows that even if it's not on an armband. Homosexuality is always the only really hard point to promote, because eeeew men holding hands. Denying that is more naive if you ask me.

Being "neutral" on acceptance of homosexuality is not actually neutral. And I get that it may have consequences for someone within their community, but the fault lies with the intolerant community. Acceptance doesnt come easy and it's harder for some, but I don't buy the "neutrality" point.
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Is Mazraoui directly promoting gambling, alcohol and tobacco? Has Mazraoui ever been outspoken about homosexuality?

Btw, what country do you live in?
 
NotChatGPT said:
Is Mazraoui directly promoting gambling, alcohol and tobacco? Has Mazraoui ever been outspoken about homosexuality?

Btw, what country do you live in?
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Before you get into that much further, do you know what country Mazraoui is from? As in, born and raised.
 
Cheimoon said:
Before you get into that much further, do you know what country Mazraoui is from? As in, born and raised.
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I know his Wikipedia page says Leiderdorp, i couldn’t find KirkDuyts wikipage.

My point was going to be about religious freedom.
 
NotChatGPT said:
I know his Wikipedia page says Leiderdorp, i couldn’t find KirkDuyts wikipage.

My point was going to be about religious freedom.
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They're both Dutch. Probably roughly the same part of the Netherlands, even.
 
HTG said:
What is being promoted isn’t homosexuality, but the idea that all men are equal, no matter the way they are born. To refuse this and hide behind religion as a way to escape criticism, your post being a sad proof that this works incredibly well, is just cowardly.
Religion is no excuse for outdated and discriminatory views. There is a whole bunch of actions that would be very much allowed by the Bible, the Quran or other religious books, that would lead to the person doing them risking imprisonment or exclusion from society. Because we as a society decided that these views are outdated and shouldn’t be applied in our time anymore. So why make an exception for homosexuality?
And the idea that a respectful treatment of a person you believe to be a sinner who goes to hell due to how they are born, is even possible, is absolutely deluded. I would not engage with a person who thinks that way about me. It’s insulting, humiliating and simply disrespectful.

You’re post sounds to me like something written by someone who’s just annoyed by the discussion and would rather everyone shut up, so you’re not bothered, instead of caring in any way, shape or form about the actual impact these things have on queer people. It’s a tiresome sentiment, where the idea of nuance and middle grounds is nothing more but a way to create a negative peace.
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This seems like a fairly bizarre interpretation of what i actually wrote, and i’m not sure why you’re attempting so many digs at me. If that’s your interpretation of the LHGBT community then that’s your interpretation, it’s miles besides my point anyway.

Fact is that religion isn’t going away and in modern civilizations we have religious freedom but very strict rules for hate crime. Even if religions was somehow banned it wouldn’t really help much as the ideologies would still survive for generation after generation, and even then you still have an entire population that can’t even agree to co-exist in peace and thrive. Mazraoui didn’t want to wear the rainbow jackets out of respect for his own religion, it’s not a hate crime not to wear the rainbow colors. Mazraoui has to my knowledge not made a single comment about any of the communities, he hasn’t insulted anyone, he hasn’t humiliated anyone and he hasn’t been disrespectful to anyone. He’s essentially minding his own business and that’s the end of it. If people think it’s a shame that he’s not supportive, that’s fair enough, but people are putting an awful lot of opinions based on feck all. If he was actively engaging other people and talking negative about homosexuality, the way other people are living their lives, engaging in public debates, then it would be a completely different discussion and he’d almost instantly be out of contract.

As for me, i have plenty of friends from pretty much all over the world. I’m not religious, never have been and i never will be, never had any problems debating any subject whatsoever. My wifes best friend is a homosexual, i’ve known him for the better part of 15 years, attended pride in Oslo with him several times, he couldn’t be less bothered about the rainbow debate but thinks pride is a fun day out to get shitfaced. People can generally live the life they want to as long as they are nice and respectful towards others.
 
Cheimoon said:
They're both Dutch. Probably roughly the same part of the Netherlands, even.
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Ref Kirk’s take on Mazraoui playing in a league sponsored by things problematic according to his religion, i’m assuming Kirk is on the move out of a country that allows religious freedom, since he’s so against the consequences.

Bit of a boring point.
 
NotChatGPT said:
Is Mazraoui directly promoting gambling, alcohol and tobacco? Has Mazraoui ever been outspoken about homosexuality?

Btw, what country do you live in?
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Yes, he plays in a league that's sponsored monetairily by gambling and alcohol. He supports them and they support him, albeit indirectly. Same as the armband.

The thing about principles is that they're black and white. You can't pick and choose.

I'm from The Netherlands.
 
KirkDuyt said:
Yes, he plays in a league that's sponsored monetairily by gambling and alcohol. He supports them and they support him, albeit indirectly. Same as the armband.

The thing about principles is that they're black and white. You can't pick and choose.

I'm from The Netherlands.
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Mazraoui wearing a rainbow jacket = direct support
Someone sponsoring a league he plays in, definetely not the same thing. It’s almost as daft as saying you should move out of Netherlands ref freedom of religion
 
NotChatGPT said:
Mazraoui wearing a rainbow jacket = direct support
Someone sponsoring a league he plays in, definetely not the same thing. It’s almost as daft as saying you should move out of Netherlands ref freedom of religion
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No it's not, he's just wearing a jacket because his employer sanctions it.

And regardless of this, if you refuse to support equal rights for people regardless of sexual preference you're a moron. And if you do it because of your religion, your religion has moronic beliefs.
 
KirkDuyt said:
No it's not, he's just wearing a jacket because his employer sanctions it.

And regardless of this, if you refuse to support equal rights for people regardless of sexual preference you're a moron. And if you do it because of your religion, your religion has moronic beliefs.
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Last time i checked it was still voluntary to wear or not, thus an entirely different matter.

Religions have moronic beliefs? Oh what a shocker, why hasn’t anyone realized this
 
Maticmaker said:
Really? I can think of lots of reasons not to wear such a jacket, that has nothing whatsoever to do with discrimination.
'Jumping to conclusions' is the way we get things wrong.
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In this case it is safe to assume it is because of his religious beliefs or his family‘s religious beliefs, or both.

His values don‘t align with ours and maybe just maybe we should not accomodate these beliefs. They would not in Morocco.
 
NotChatGPT said:
Last time i checked it was still voluntary to wear or not, thus an entirely different matter.

Religions have moronic beliefs? Oh what a shocker, why hasn’t anyone realized this
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No one is forcing him to play in England either.

I understand where you're coming from, I just don't think it's an excuse. The salvation of your eternal soul is surely more important than a football career.

Anyway, let's just agree to disagree on this one :)
 
KirkDuyt said:
No one is forcing him to play in England either.

I understand where you're coming from, I just don't think it's an excuse. The salvation of your eternal soul is surely more important than a football career.

Anyway, let's just agree to disagree on this one :)
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By all means, i don’t mind to agree to disagree about the concept itself, but I just don’t get the silly comparisons, like stretching it to how it supposedly should be problematic for him to play in England but somehow all he’s negative towards is the rainbow jacket. It’s like your desperate to make the situation a lot more problematic than it actually is and make Mazraoui out to be something there’s no reason to believe he is. The fact that you can’t produce a single quote and/or news story about Mazraoui saying anything negative about any community whatsoever, or even engaging in a debate about it, apart from defending the rights that come with freedom of religion, just spells out how little of a problem this actually is.

Reality is that there is no ideal world. Religions will continue to exist and freedom of religion will continue to exist in modern countries. Freedom of religion has it’s ups and downs, the very strict laws about hate crimes are there for a reason.The best we can hope for is that people will live their own lives according to their own beliefs, while respecting that others are of different opinions and live their own lives. This notion that everyone needs to agree and respect with everything is beyond stupid. Randomly deciding the path we should head down and banning everything else is generally not a good idea
 
Cheimoon said:
He's still born and raised in the Netherlands though. Meaning that his immediate family is (or was) there as well.
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Yeah, from Leiderdorp even. Doesnt get more milquetoast than that.

I think I bought my last couch there.
 
Cheimoon said:
He's still born and raised in the Netherlands though. Meaning that his immediate family is (or was) there as well.
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It’s a direct response to his second line about what wouldn’t be accommodated in Morocco.

Which i thought was a funny line to make in the first place.
 
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