LGBTQ+ inclusion and Religion Debate in Football

Garethw said:
How is he a bigot for standing by his religious beliefs?

Is he demanding that the club cease all activities associated with supporting the LGBTQ community? No he isn’t. He’s quietly decided that he doesn’t want to participate.
Click to expand...
Because religious beliefs couldn't possibly be bigoted. Your post is dumb and you should feel bad.
 
Garethw said:
How is he a bigot for standing by his religious beliefs?

Is he demanding that the club cease all activities associated with supporting the LGBTQ community? No he isn’t. He’s quietly decided that he doesn’t want to participate.
Click to expand...
Because the views he's standing by are discriminating, hateful and ignorant. That makes him a bigoted person.
 
TheGame said:
I agree with Stan Collymore when he said just do a general 'Football for all' or something similar campaign which will eliminate these kind of situations.
Click to expand...
Someone on another forum suggested a rainbow ball. I'd like that more. See if they just decide not to play with it or refuse to kick it if on the pitch.
 
Garethw said:
How is he a bigot for standing by his religious beliefs?

Is he demanding that the club cease all activities associated with supporting the LGBTQ community? No he isn’t. He’s quietly decided that he doesn’t want to participate.
Click to expand...
He is using his religious beliefs to justify his bigotry.

From the PL site:

"During this period, the League and clubs will showcase the work they carry out year-round to embed equality, diversity and inclusion in everything they do."

If he doesn't want to take part, it means he doesn't believe in equality, diversity and inclusion. Because otherwise it's the tamest thing one can do, support these things.

If he doesn't believe in it, he's a bigot.
 
TheGame said:
What event was cancelled exactly? The only thing that didn't happen was the wearing of a fecking tracksuit due a player's personal choice.
Click to expand...

The club was planning a show of support to LGBT+ community. It was cancelled, because Mazraoui does not support LBGT+ people, and the United players as a group chose to stand behind their teammate over LGBT+ people.

Your reaction has been to attack journalists and the leaker. As I said, feck off with this shit.
 
SilentWitness said:
Someone on another forum suggested a rainbow ball. I'd like that more. See if they just decide not to play with it or refuse to kick it if on the pitch.
Click to expand...

Yeah can't see why people would have an issue with that as they are not wearing it. There are other ways around it. Stories like this are too commonplace these days. There are different ways to approach. It just detracts from the main aim.
 
NotThatSoph said:
Oh feck off with this shit.

Of course it's a story that United cancelled a pro LGBT+ event because one of its players refuses to show support for gay people. It's media's duty to write about it, they would be utterly failing their jobs if they didn't, and it's good that they're doing it.
Click to expand...

100% this.

I'm seeing some United fans "outing" themselves over this, and I'm not talking about coming out of the closet!
 
caid said:
If he feels that strongly then he can put in a transfer request. Go play for a team who better represent his bigotry.
Click to expand...
In fairness he has not made any kind of statement, and there is no evidence that he has in anyway acted in any inappropriate way to any other human.

People can believe what they want, and asking somebody to wear an emblem, slogan etc. that clearly is contrary to a belief which they are allowed to have, then jumping on them when they say they don't want to do it is oppression, just as bad a bigotry.

There are billions of people around the world who believe their religion condemns homosexuality, quite honestly I am baffled that anyone believes in any religion and I find 99.9% of it ridiculous, but I will defend their right to that belief as wrong as I find it, just as strongly as I will defend your right to practice your sexuality without persecution or censure. If you are willing to write of Maz you are willing to write off half the population of the world and all the good that those people contain.

It has been handled poorly, it should have only ever been a voluntary thing for players or anybody else to wear anything which advertises a belief.

What somebody believes and how they treat people can be completely separate, until I hear that Maz has discriminated against an individual or group of people then I will not fault him, just to be clear he has not discriminated against anyone, he has refused to be proactive about something.
 
It's an interesting one for sure. I don't think that football clubs can be treated as a typical employer. If my company decided to do this same thing, I believe any employee would be well within their rights to not wear the jackets, regardless of the cause.

However, football clubs - with ours being one of the largest - are cultural institutions. Manchester United making an active effort to support any cause brings with it power and significance simply because of the scale. Seeing all the players standing pitchside, broadcast worldwide to tens of millions of people is an enormous gesture of support to, in this case, a marginalised community. It creates permission structures, enables conversations and hopefully pushes towards less intolerance and more inclusivity.

As such, I really don't care about any particular player's thoughts on said community. The whole point of this entire effort is to push towards tolerance regardless of your own beliefs. While you are well within your rights - due to religion, experience, upbringing whatever - to not agree with the community, I don't believe you - as a representative of this cultural institution - should get to skip out on this particular bit of inclusivity.

Wearing the rainbow tops is not forcing anyone to be gay, it is a gesture to encourage people not to persecute those that are. And if we're all honest here, using religion as justification is a crock. You want me to go make a list of the things the Quran also explicitly prohibits that literally everyone of Maz's teammates - and probably he himself - fail to adhere to? Or pick your religion, it's certainly not restricted to any particular one.
 
NotThatSoph said:
The club was planning a show of support to LGBT+ community. It was cancelled, because Mazraoui does not support LBGT+ people, and the United players as a group chose to stand behind their teammate over LGBT+ people.

Your reaction has been to attack journalists and the leaker. As I said, feck off with this shit.
Click to expand...

The journalist is a cnut who has done negative pieces in the past. The campaign was to highlight support which the captain did. Mazaroui has his own personal views and his teammates decided not to single out a player and Bruno still worse the armband so calm the feck down with your shite.
 
HTG said:
Because the views he's standing by are discriminating, hateful and ignorant. That makes him a bigoted person.
Click to expand...
Yep.
JPRouve said:
Most people haven't. My personal experience being clause to members of LGBT youth shelters is that a large portion of society "moved on" as long as it doesn't concern their children or a member of their family otherwise they will be happy to banish them.
Click to expand...
Yep.

And always worth pointing out that there isn't currently an openly gay player in the Premier League.

Maybe, there's a statistical anomaly at player but that will never sit right. Players from all religions can, for the most part, celebrate their religion.

Gay footballers essentially feel scared to be themselves whilst playing as a professional.
 
Zed 101 said:
In fairness he has not made any kind of statement, and there is no evidence that he has in anyway acted in any inappropriate way to any other human.

People can believe what they want, and asking somebody to wear an emblem, slogan etc. that clearly is contrary to a belief which they are allowed to have, then jumping on them when they say they don't want to do it is oppression, just as bad a bigotry.

There are billions of people around the world who believe their religion condemns homosexuality, quite honestly I am baffled that anyone believes in any religion and I find 99.9% of it ridiculous, but I will defend their right to that belief as wrong as I find it, just as strongly as I will defend your right to practice your sexuality without persecution or censure. If you are willing to write of Maz you are willing to write off half the population of the world and all the good that those people contain.

It has been handled poorly, it should have only ever been a voluntary thing for players or anybody else to wear anything which advertises a belief.

What somebody believes and how they treat people can be completely separate, until I hear that Maz has discriminated against an individual or group of people then I will not fault him, just to be clear he has not discriminated against anyone, he has refused to be proactive about something.
Click to expand...
Great post.
 
Zed 101 said:
In fairness he has not made any kind of statement, and there is no evidence that he has in anyway acted in any inappropriate way to any other human.

People can believe what they want, and asking somebody to wear an emblem, slogan etc. that clearly is contrary to a belief which they are allowed to have, then jumping on them when they say they don't want to do it is oppression, just as bad a bigotry.

There are billions of people around the world who believe their religion condemns homosexuality, quite honestly I am baffled that anyone believes in any religion and I find 99.9% of it ridiculous, but I will defend their right to that belief as wrong as I find it, just as strongly as I will defend your right to practice your sexuality without persecution or censure. If you are willing to write of Maz you are willing to write off half the population of the world and all the good that those people contain.

It has been handled poorly, it should have only ever been a voluntary thing for players or anybody else to wear anything which advertises a belief.

What somebody believes and how they treat people can be completely separate, until I hear that Maz has discriminated against an individual or group of people then I will not fault him, just to be clear he has not discriminated against anyone, he has refused to be proactive about something.
Click to expand...

Great post and the handling by the club has been abysmal.
 
Zed 101 said:
In fairness he has not made any kind of statement, and there is no evidence that he has in anyway acted in any inappropriate way to any other human.

People can believe what they want, and asking somebody to wear an emblem, slogan etc. that clearly is contrary to a belief which they are allowed to have, then jumping on them when they say they don't want to do it is oppression, just as bad a bigotry.

There are billions of people around the world who believe their religion condemns homosexuality, quite honestly I am baffled that anyone believes in any religion and I find 99.9% of it ridiculous, but I will defend their right to that belief as wrong as I find it, just as strongly as I will defend your right to practice your sexuality without persecution or censure. If you are willing to write of Maz you are willing to write off half the population of the world and all the good that those people contain.

It has been handled poorly, it should have only ever been a voluntary thing for players or anybody else to wear anything which advertises a belief.

What somebody believes and how they treat people can be completely separate, until I hear that Maz has discriminated against an individual or group of people then I will not fault him, just to be clear he has not discriminated against anyone, he has refused to be proactive about something.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately life is a zero sum equation for some people.
 
Garethw said:
Or just devoutly religious.
Click to expand...

Which by default leads to bigotry. Because religious people believe that their faith is the correct one, that their beliefs are righteous while beliefs that go against it are wrongful and will lead to either some punishments or the absence of reward in the afterlife. Religious beliefs especially if you are devoted are bigoted.
 
hobbers said:
Isn't the main part of diversity and inclusion about being mindful and tolerant of other minorities beliefs and culture? Or is it only diversity and inclusion when it's for things we agree with.
Click to expand...
Maz is the really victim here if we think about it in a very special way.
 
hobbers said:
Isn't the main part of diversity and inclusion about being mindful and tolerant of other minorities beliefs and culture? Or is it only diversity and inclusion when it's for things we agree with.
Click to expand...

To a point. Should we embrace racism? Should we respect it? Tolerate it?

Think things through, or just read back to save us the time explaining it over and over.
 
TheGame said:
Really, all I'm seeing his certain people having a extreme meltdown over it. Whilst alot of others are discussing the story with different views.
Click to expand...

Attacking Crafton over this piece is Trump-esque. Even though we are United fans we don't have to lap everything up and defend the club unconditionally. They fecked up this case and should be bloody ashamed. That's all there is to it.
 
TheGame said:
The journalist is a cnut who has done negative pieces in the past. The campaign was to highlight support which the captain did. Mazaroui has his own personal views and his teammates decided not to single out a player and Bruno still worse the armband so calm the feck down with your shite.
Click to expand...
Good luck with that .
 
SirAF said:
Attacking Crafton over this piece is Trump-esque. Even though we are United fans we don't have to lap everything up and defend the club unconditionally. They fecked up this case and should be bloody ashamed. That's all there is to it.
Click to expand...

Crafton is attacked because he puts out negative stories on the eve of matches all of the time. It's hardly fecking Trumpesque. The handling by the club has been poor.
 
hobbers said:
Isn't the main part of diversity and inclusion about being mindful and tolerant of other minorities beliefs and culture? Or is it only diversity and inclusion when it's for things we agree with.
Click to expand...
A very ignorant question. Of course not. His beliefs are what makes him a bigot. By your logic, you would also have to be mindful and tolerant of Nazis and refuse to stop them from killing, as that is what they belief is right.
 
I should add something about religious people, some aren't bigots because they follow the philosophy that no one outside of god can judge an other human. So it is possible for a muslim or a christian to not have a personal issue with something but in the doubt chosing to not promote it.
 
TheGame said:
The journalist is a cnut who has done negative pieces in the past. The campaign was to highlight support which the captain did. Mazaroui has his own personal views and his teammates decided not to single out a player and Bruno still worse the armband so calm the feck down with your shite.
Click to expand...

Sometimes the club does negative things. Crafton should report this, he's doing his job well. If that's a rarity, then good for him this particular time.

Choosing not to do this event is no different from not wearing the armband. It's an active protest against showing support to LGBT+ people.

You're attacking everyone that we have to thank for this getting out, you're continuously downplaying it, and you're using weasel words. "Mazraoui has his own personal views"... yes, we know, and those personal views happen to be being against gay people.
 
hobbers said:
Not really, but you have to wonder why any club would make such a rod for their own backs, when they should know if they have religious players and how willing they are to participate in symbolic gestures or not before they get organised.
Click to expand...

Maybe they were naive in thinking that in 2024 no one decent would have an issue with supporting equality and inclusion.

The only thing I blame the club for is not going ahead with their plans and just tell the player to sit this one out if he felt so strongly about his bigotry.
 
JPRouve said:
I should add something about religious people, some aren't bigots because they follow the philosophy that no one outside of god can judge an other human. So it is possible for a muslim or a christian to not have a personal issue with something but in the doubt chosing to not promote it.
Click to expand...

100% anyone with any compassion and empathy can see those things in most religious texts and chose those words to be 'guided' by.
 
JPRouve said:
I should add something about religious people, some aren't bigots because they follow the philosophy that no one outside of god can judge an other human. So it is possible for a muslim or a christian to not have a personal issue with something but in the doubt chosing to not promote it.
Click to expand...

This initiative is promoting diversity and inclusion. Why would that be an issue for a religious person? Maz is only using islam as a shield here.
 
Players should be able to hold whatever opinions they want, and should be open to criticism for them too.

Expecting Maz to join in with something which goes counter to his religious beliefs is something I don't agree with. The inverse of that is Maz saying he won't wear that jacket and neither should anyone else, I don't think that's what happened.

The players made a short-sighted decision by deciding that none of them should wear the jackets (if they had done that this would be a much less of a story, and would come across more as Maz being singled out for his beliefs rather than United as a club failing to show support for LGBT) but to be fair someone in an executive/PR position should have overruled them. The players aren't paid to make these decisions and aren't equipped to do so either.

This hasn't made me think less of Maz (as we already knew his stance on the matter) but less of the club for handling it so badly.
 
SirAF said:
100% this.

I'm seeing some United fans "outing" themselves over this, and I'm not talking about coming out of the closet!
Click to expand...
Maybe they are outing themselves, if you subscribe to the notion that all homophobes are closeted gays themselves.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.