And you are going to the extreme length to justify your views. I haven't him heard voice anything against gay people. You are going to the opposite end and shouting down anyone who disagrees with you.
LGBTQ+ inclusion and Religion Debate in Football
- Thread starter SilentWitness
- Start date
And you are going to the extreme length to justify your views. I haven't him heard voice anything against gay people. You are going to the opposite end and shouting down anyone who disagrees with you.
I'm only going by the timing and its Crafton. The extreme thing is linked to some of the posts on here with their hypothesis on the player.
If you try to tell me I'm supposed to be tolerant towards people who discriminate me due to the way I'm born, you can forget your precious little nuance. Your question is insulting and ignorant.
Except saying "no thanks" when asked to acknowledge they are deserving of equality and inclusion. Why would anyone conclude he doesn't like gay people...
Because it promotes something that is deemed morally reprehensible by his religion. While we both disagree with his religious belief, we don't have to be obtuse, the reason is obvious and predictable.
Beliefs and actions are different things, unfortunately somebody should be able to have Nazi beliefs however horrendous they are as long as they do not act on those beliefs in the way they treat another human, you cannot be thought police and have it both ways, freedom of thought and belief is intrinsic to democracy, how you treat other people is something different and should be strictly controlled.
Condemning somebody for their beliefs is just as bigoted as somebody believing homosexuality is a sin, condemning anyone for any belief is just plain wrong.
What you believe may seem obviously right to you, just because somebody believes the contrary doesn't make you right and them wrong, just means you have different beliefs, ultimately nobody can prove that the religious belief held by some that homosexuality is a sin is wrong, there is no empirical evidence on the subject primarily because all religion is just deluded make belief anyway but still.
Live and let live, believe what you want, just treat everybody the same and don't force your beliefs down somebody else's throat.
Nuance my hole. Your post made no sense and when people pointed out the logical conclusion of your ill thought post you claim it was nuanced. Unreal.
It depends on how you define things.
We do not force anybody to not have racist thoughts, or to have friends and relationships with people of different races (or religions or nationalities and so forth). We do not typically impose penalties on people for this either. In that sense, we do 'tolerate' racism, as part of accepting freedom of thought, association, etc. If you have a job you are expected you be professional and respectful of your colleagues; you don't have to like them.
No. You don't get that protection when you're actively trying to exclude others. What's so fecking difficult to understand about that?
A local club a couple of months ago had an LGBT support event and the players entered the pitch with a rainbow scarf they then threw to the crowd. That club has 2 moroccan muslim players and they had no issue with it.
Are these 2 guys not reading the book properly? Are they fake muslims? Might it be this is open to interpretation and Maz chose based on his personal bigotry?
Nice guy
Seeing how the thread is going, I am afraid this nuance will be lost on the majority who are claiming Maz is a homophobe.
Comparing not wearing a jacket to the fecking Nazi's, jeez. All the while you also said Bayern not allowing anyone to say anything against Israel killing innocent people doesn't mean they support it. Come back with Nazi comparisons when Mazaroui kills a gay person and people here are defending him.
This is why this making these judgements on virtue signalling from football clubs is annoying.
It is not. Because believes are a choice. I have every right to condemn my fellow human for their choice.
Anti-Nazi day at old trafford, everyone wearing an anti-nazi jacket. This one guy says "nah sorry, I don't want to be part of that". Would you respect that or would you want that guy as far away as possible from your club?
Oh the irony, you have the right to believe he is wrong in his beliefs, the minute you publicly criticise him for his beliefs you are the oppressor!
His religious beliefs require him to disagree with people being gay. I mean there's not really any mititgation there. That's what it is.
I can understand it being a difficult position to put him in, and it could easily be he doesn't really agree with that and/or is fully tolerant of other people's sexuality on a personal level. So there is no reason to attack or hold it against Mazrouri, but its absolutely right to highlight that this is an issue.
It fuels an environment where a gay person can't be comfortable with being gay. Or where a gay person might face abuse or discrimination under the excuse of "religious beliefs".
Sorry, are you struggling to define racism?
I don't know these people, I don't know if they are actual practitioners(many aren't), they are culturally muslim but not religiously. So I'm not going to give you any take on specific people.
It hasn't been handled poorly at all. It was a voluntary thing and the team decided to not wear the jackets. I doubt anyone would have stopped a player if they wanted to that badly.
It was leaked. That's the bigger issue.
No it isn't. And it's not racism. But both points were made to show you that not all minority beliefs should be tolerated. Which you said they should be. And it's nonsense.
I don't think you actually know any Muslims.
This script is so dumb.
My "extreme length" of interpreting his consistent choice of refusing to participate in any pro LGBT+ things for religious reasons, and him being against the Day Against Homophobia thing in France, as him not being a supporter of LGBT+ people? "Shouting down anyone who disagrees with [me]" by replaying to, what, two or three people? Do you think I don't disagree with way more than that? You have to be playing dumb as some weird attempt at rhetoric, this cannot be a sincerely held belief.
To make this even better, while accusing me of going to extreme lengths, you just in another comment agreed with someone saying that the reaction Mazraoui is getting is as bad as actual oppression. This is art.
I think you need to step away from the thread
Are all devout practicing muslims homophobes? If the answer is no, it means those who are are actively choosing to be homophobes.
Criticism is not oppression. Discriminating people based on the way they were born is. Speaking out against it is either self defense or basic human decency. Things you seem to be lacking. They are at least missing from your posts.
I would but it goes against my personal beliefs, so please respect me.I think you need to step away from the thread
I got lost on "we tolerate racism".
We tolerate it in the same way we tolerate other crimes, such as murder for example.
Tolerance.
You miss the point, you are talking extremes, for a start there will never be an anti-Nazi day but hypothetically as much as I hate Nazism, I would not expect anyone to wear any sign or political statement they have not volunteered to, the whole point of having a society that functions is to accept that everyone has the right to their beliefs without persecution.
Would I want to go out with him for drinks, absolutely not, would I jump on him if he ever publicly voiced word one of his beliefs absolutely in a heart beat.
"Racism" is not a crime. What on earth are you talking about.
There isn't a nuance here. Just as there wasn't a nuance when right wing weirdos were screaming "no politics in football" when most players were taking the knee in support of BLM.
The campaign is essentially acknowledging that members of LGBTQ community have been discriminated against and want people to make the smallest of gestures.
The campaign wasn't asking for a lot.
It was wearing a rainbow armband or a jacket that basically says "gay people are ok, you know".
That was it. Its even worse when the people who are in the wrong here have all been abused for their own identities in the past. The main difference here is, as I've already said, gay footballers can't be themselves for fear of an insane amount of abuse.
OK. Is there a point you're trying to make?
I haven't written him off. I wouldn't bother criticising his beliefs if i'd written him off. He can believe what he wants, there'll be consequences to those beliefs, same as for everyone.
You'd be wrong. Its called a uniform. They can dictate what that uniform is.
Racism is illegal in various legal codes under hate speech and discrimination laws.
It's quite annoying how people seem to be calling it 'beliefs' as though the belief is something subjective. When in this case, it's the 'belief' that being gay is a sin and in extreme cases means you shouldn't be allowed to live.
Of course it's not fair to say Mazraoui holds these exact beliefs, but that's the implication (to what extent, we can't say). No one is saying he should be forced to wear the jacket, but we are definitely allowed to judge him based on that decision and wish that he, and even more so the club, could do better.
Of course it's not fair to say Mazraoui holds these exact beliefs, but that's the implication (to what extent, we can't say). No one is saying he should be forced to wear the jacket, but we are definitely allowed to judge him based on that decision and wish that he, and even more so the club, could do better.
It sounds like we do need to define what "racism" is!
I don't think too many are in fairness. I don't think we have enough evidence, but what we do have is not flattering.
Why though?
If someone believes in a religion that has bigoted teachings, and which discriminates against certain members of society, why would you defend their right to believe in that?
Just as a hypothetical, if someone believed in a religion which explicitly called for certain people to be harmed, would you still defend their right to believe in it?