Leighton Baines

Sylar said:
Didnt people say RVP was a pointless signing as well. Or when Evra was signed when we had Heinze and Oshea?
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Nah, we needed a left back that time as Heinze was ruled out for the season and Richardson wasn't good enough for lb.
 
I think it comes down to Moyes being keen to use what he used successfully at Everton. Which was the best left side of the pitch in the league.

The combination play between Baines from left back and Pienaar linking up with him was more effective than any other combination in the league. It also explains why we'd go for Fellaini as he would often come over to that side and be involved in making it a triangle of passes, which often ended with Baines getting free and putting a good cross into the box.

Being fair to Evra, last season and the start of this season he's been miles better with his end product and crossing. Its still not great, but a lot better. But it still doesn't compare to Baines and wouldn't be nearly as worth it with the same tactics Everton had down the left getting Evra free.

Now obviously we arent signing Pienaar as well, but Moyes has already picked Welbeck and Kagawa on the left in matches and it would be unsurprising if he felt either one has the passing and linkup play to fill in the Pienaar role and more on top of it.
 
Ekeke said:
I think it comes down to Moyes being keen to use what he used successfully at Everton. Which was the best left side of the pitch in the league.

The combination play between Baines from left back and Pienaar linking up with him was more effective than any other combination in the league. It also explains why we'd go for Fellaini as he would often come over to that side and be involved in making it a triangle of passes, which often ended with Baines getting free and putting a good cross into the box.

Being fair to Evra, last season and the start of this season he's been miles better with his end product and crossing. Its still not great, but a lot better. But it still doesn't compare to Baines and wouldn't be nearly as worth it with the same tactics Everton had down the left getting Evra free.

Now obviously we arent signing Pienaar as well, but Moyes has already picked Welbeck and Kagawa on the left in matches and it would be unsurprising if he felt either one has the passing and linkup play to fill in the Pienaar role and more on top of it.
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I personally think Baines is an upgrade on Evra, but it also gives us options out wide on the left - no need for an out and out winger if Baines is operating on the side, meaning Kagawa could come in and Rooney could still be accomodated (as an example).
 
Eyepopper said:
Personally I think the inability to comprehend why we're in for Baines comes down to peoples (rightly placed) loyalty and love for Evra.

I think most would agree they're both at a similar level as players. On their day both are great, probably better going forward than they are going back. So why bring Baines in? Well, for me it comes down to age, at this stage Evra is 32, and while still performing, he's not getting any younger.

His ability going forward is a big part of our attacking play, and the main worry I would have about replacing him, but given Baines record over the past couple of seasons I think he is capable of replicating it.

The question on Evra for me is how much longer will his legs allow him to get back from very advanced positions to cover? I think the answer to that is not long, he had a great season last year, proving that he's still among the best LB's in the world, but think back to the season or two before that, and IMO he was found wanting defensively a number of times.

Even someone who doesn't watch him train every day would have to think that over the next 18-24 months, at most, his ability to cover as much ground as he does will wain.

The question of cover also arises, in Fabio and Buttner we hardly have 2 first class proven deputies. The theory seems to be that Fabio is ready to step in and fill the void should Evra get injured (increasingly likely with age, particularly given the number of games he plays), but aside from a few sparse glimpses of Fabio's ability I really don't see why people have so much faith. Obviously I hope he continues to develop and gets to the level Rafael is at, but if Evra picked up an injury right now how many of us would be confident going into the next couple of fixtures with Fabio at LB?

Moving for a proven player a couple of years younger makes complete sense in my book, and I also suspect we'll hold on to Evra until Jan should we pick up Baines.

I doubt anyone really wants Evra to go, but its going to happen in the not too distant future, and if the right player is available now I can understand moving to bring them in now rather than wait for time to catch up with Evra.
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I'd rather have Fabio at LB and get the CM sorted. Fabio has shown he has the talent to play at the highest level. Hasn't shown the consistency yet at Utd but he has hardly had a chance.

Also same could be said of Giggs who 'probably doesn't have long in the tank' and that's probably been repeated for over 7 years. Evra has shown improvement over a sufficient period of time to suggest that with the right level of rest and competition he is still good to start games for us.
 
i'm torn on this as i really like Baines, he's really matured of late and deserves his shot in the CL and with England. He's solid defensively and has excellent end product for a fullback, with our firepower in the air he could be a real weapon from set pieces. He also seems like a decent bloke which is always nice too

But Patrice Evra is Patrice fecking Evra, he's infinitely more awesome than just about any other player anywhere on earth, he's also completely unbreakable and plays 50 games a year every year as standard. why would you want to marginalise such a strong member of your squad. I cannot see him being happy as second choice, i'd be really sad to see him go if this move should lead to that
 
RDCR07 said:
Really then why dont we get another striker to compete with Hernandez and RVP? Why not get Eriksen to compete with Kagawa and Rooney? Why not get Begovic to compete with De Gea?
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Well you got RVP to compete with Rooney, Hernandez, Welbeck...
 
wonnie said:
I'd rather have Fabio at LB and get the CM sorted. Fabio has shown he has the talent to play at the highest level. Hasn't shown the consistency yet at Utd but he has hardly had a chance.

Also same could be said of Giggs who 'probably doesn't have long in the tank' and that's probably been repeated for over 7 years. Evra has shown improvement over a sufficient period of time to suggest that with the right level of rest and competition he is still good to start games for us.
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He hasn't shown it consistently at Utd yet, or at QPR last year. But he's 23, time is on his side.

Do you honestly think that signing a midfielder is dependent on whether or not we sign Baines?

Fair point in relation to the longevity Giggs has shown but I'm not sure our approach to balancing the age of the squad should be based on Giggs and his vulcanised rubber hamgstrings, and I don't think having Giggs here stopped us buying other wingers.

If you look at pretty much all other areas we have a good mix of youth, talent and experience. Not for me at LB. Evra's certainly a got the experience and talent, but like it or not I'd lay a heavy bet that, one way or another, he wont be at Utd in 18 months time. Will Fabio be ready to take on the first team spot at Manchester United in that time? Hopefully but it is 'hope' rather than certainty at this point.

Of course we need to address CM, worst kept secret in football, but you don't just ignore every other of the team until you do it.
 
Eyepopper said:
He hasn't shown it consistently at Utd yet, or at QPR last year. But he's 23, time is on his side.

Do you honestly think that signing a midfielder is dependent on whether or not we sign Baines?

Fair point in relation to the longevity Giggs has shown but I'm not sure our approach to balancing the age of the squad should be based on Giggs and his vulcanised rubber hamgstrings, and I don't think having Giggs here stopped us buying other wingers.

If you look at pretty much all other areas we have a good mix of youth, talent and experience. Not for me at LB. Evra's certainly a got the experience and talent, but like it or not I'd lay a heavy bet that, one way or another, he wont be at Utd in 18 months time. Will Fabio be ready to take on the first team spot at Manchester United in that time? Hopefully but it is 'hope' rather than certainty at this point.

Of course we need to address CM, worst kept secret in football, but you don't just ignore every other of the team until you do it.
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He was easily one of their best players in a difficult time.
 
I'd be happy if we got Baines. He gives you quality delivery and does it regularly. He takes a pretty good free kick on top too. That already is an upgrade on Evra, who has been great during our most successful years, but has been nowhere near that standard for a couple of seasons now. Evra's main contribution is his attacking and link up play, Baines is just as good at that side in my view, and has the added benefit of reliable end product. When we consider how much space Evra gets on the left, a better final product would make us far more dangerous from that side. While Evra's inconsistent delivery often spoils his impressive build up play, Baines would allow us to benefit far more by maximizing the space we create so often on the left. Nothing against Evra, but i think Baines would be a great addition, and with better and more reliable quality deliveries coming from that side, we can surely only benefit from that.
 
gooDevil said:
I'm not excited about Baines being a downgrade on defense. We scored plenty last season, but our defense was not up to the level of our best seasons.
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People are too quick to skip over this in favour of talking about all the chances he creates.
 
walsh said:
Yeah but we wouldn't buy another, so you can have too many good players.
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But Buttner is pretty shit and although Fabio can be a great player he isn't anything special yet. Plus Fabio can be an RB back up so getting in Baines wouldn't be as silly as people are making.
 
Sylar said:
Didnt people say RVP was a pointless signing as well. Or when Evra was signed when we had Heinze and Oshea?
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Well that's a great comparison.

Rvp was the worlds best striker. Baines is worse than evra and more suited to teams like Everton than those like united.

Evra was much younger when we got him and, again, had the talent to be the best fullback in the game (which he duly became). Baines will never be the best fullback around.
 
SilentWitness said:
Well you got RVP to compete with Rooney, Hernandez, Welbeck...
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Yes but when was the last time Rooney play up top all by himself. He was always going to be play behind RVP in the hole. So he wasnt technically competing with RVP for that striker spot. So three strikers was good. Plus RVP was world class. I still think Evra is better than Baines.
 
paceme said:
Baines already is one of the best full backs around tbh.
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Of course he is, and how anyone thinks he would be worse than Evra defensively is beyond me. Evra is hardly renowned for brilliant defending, and Evra's general form has been nothing to shout about for a couple of seasons now, whereas in contrast Baines is in the form of his life. Evra is simply not the player he used to be and Baines has been getting better and more consistent. Moyes has already proven he can get the best out of Baines, and he may improve yet again. What real chance is there of a 32yr old Evra getting any better? Far more chance of that when facing some serious competition for his place i would suggest.
 
Even if we do buy Baines I still think we will be seeing Evra in the bigger games. There's still tons of game time for Baines in there aswel and he'll eventually take over next season.
 
apotheosis said:
Of course he is, and how anyone thinks he would be worse than Evra defensively is beyond me. Evra is hardly renowned for brilliant defending, and Evra's general form has been nothing to shout about for a couple of seasons now, whereas in contrast Baines is in the form of his life. Evra is simply not the player he used to be and Baines has been getting better and more consistent. Moyes has already proven he can get the best out of Baines, and he may improve yet again. What real chance is there of a 32yr old Evra getting any better? Far more chance of that when facing some serious competition for his place i would suggest.
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That's a bit exaggerated isn't it? Evra last season was great and certainly not far behind Baines overall. Defensively, Evra is better. He is still faster, he is stronger, a much, much better header of the ball, clears the ball more and makes about as many interceptions. Baines has a much better cross, although Evra seems improved in that aspect. Baines is ever so much overrated in defense. If you think Evra is out of position, you will be in for a surprise with Baines as he attacks even more, thus being out of position defensively more (personally I think that argument is moot as they are attacking fullbacks).

Evra got better last season at 31 and has looked real promising this year, so I'm not sure what you are getting at. Why write someone off because of age? Rio certainly improved his game last season and he's 35! Sure, Evra will never be blistering quick like he was, but Baines isn't even close to that pace anyhow, nor does he have Paddy's physique. I also think we will miss Evra's drive; he really is one of the few who spurs our team in attack when things are not going our way - that is something stats can never show, and I'm not sure that Baines is that player.

I know I sound negative towards the signing of Baines, and that is not because I think he's a bad player. He's very, very good, but I don't think he will be an upgrade on what we currently have, and I doubt rotating them will work as they pretty much played all the games last season. I for one think Fabio will step up if he gets a few games. He's good at defending (not sure about his headers, but Rafael is good at that), is brilliant at reading the game in attack and finding players on runs behind the defenders. His crossing with his left foot is quite decent too. He can even cut inside and contribute with some fairly nice shots. I'm not one of those who argue that we cannot buy because that will hinder the youngsters, I'm just one of those who think that what we have now is probably just as good, or arguably better than the buy, and thus I see no benefit in the deal. Better to spunk the money on a central midfielder, imo.
 
SilentWitness said:
But Buttner is pretty shit and although Fabio can be a great player he isn't anything special yet. Plus Fabio can be an RB back up so getting in Baines wouldn't be as silly as people are making.
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I agree with this. As much as I like like Fabio I'd rather have him as cover on the right anyway. It just makes sense to have at least one left footed player playing on the left side of the pitch, there's a reason why most teams play with one, it's not a coincidence.

I think some of our fans also forget that Evra isn't actually indestructible and could potentially suffer an injury. If he did pick up a lengthy injury I know I'd feel far more comfortable with Baines filling in than either Fabio or Buttner. I actually think Baines is currently a slightly better player than Evra anyway. Not sure why anybody would be opposed to us signing him in truth. Quality player.
 
Care_de_Bobo said:
I agree with this. As much as I like like Fabio I'd rather have him as cover on the right anyway. It just makes sense to have at least one left footed player playing on the left side of the pitch, there's a reason why most teams play with one, it's not a coincidence.

I think some of our fans also forget that Evra isn't actually indestructible and could potentially suffer an injury. If he did pick up a lengthy injury I know I'd feel far more comfortable with Baines filling in than either Fabio or Buttner. I actually think Baines is currently a slightly better player than Evra anyway. Not sure why anybody would be opposed to us signing him in truth. Quality player.
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There's no way though that Baines is going to come in as a backup player to Evra not if he wants to start at the world cup. Evra has played like 50 plus games each season, you really don't change your fullbacks that often so I can't see how we're going to keep both of them.

And there for me is the problem. Even if we all agreed Baines slightly edges Evra is there that much in it to actually need to bring Baines in? At 12m+ I can't think of any other fullbacks with no CL experience and nearing 29 who have gone for similar amounts. Not to mention Evra is clearly a very popular player within the dressing room. Just seems very odd to want to change a position for someone who is not at all a significant improvement on what we already have, loosing a very experienced player on the way.

As for a right footer on the wrong side it's not done Lahm any problems and can work fine. Fabio was ahead of Rafael only a few seasons ago, earning a spot in a CL final. There's no reason to think with better luck with injuries he can't get back to that.
 
Ash_G said:
There's no way though that Baines is going to come in as a backup player to Evra not if he wants to start at the world cup. Evra has played like 50 plus games each season, you really don't change your fullbacks that often so I can't see how we're going to keep both of them.

And there for me is the problem. Even if we all agreed Baines slightly edges Evra is there that much in it to actually need to bring Baines in? At 12m+ I can't think of any other fullbacks with no CL experience and nearing 29 who have gone for similar amounts. Not to mention Evra is clearly a very popular player within the dressing room. Just seems very odd to want to change a position for someone who is not at all a significant improvement on what we already have, loosing a very experienced player on the way.

As for a right footer on the wrong side it's not done Lahm any problems and can work fine. Fabio was ahead of Rafael only a few seasons ago, earning a spot in a CL final. There's no reason to think with better luck with injuries he can't get back to that.
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Champions League experience is overrated by posters on here. Bayern just won the competition with a 29 year old Dante playing at centre back, he didn't have any previous experience.

As for Lahm, he's been playing at right back for the past two seasons and Bayern have reached consecutive Champions League finals and were fantastic defensively last season, so I really don't see your point.

Having a left footer, Robben, on the right with him makes sense though, as does Ribery playing with Alaba on the left. I'm not saying a right footer can't play on the left, but you must surely be able to see that having at least one left footer on the left hand side is better than none. We'd be too predictable down that side with two right footers as both players on that side would be looking to cut inside constantly. If Giggs was 10 years younger I may feel differently about the whole situation.
 
Care_de_Bobo said:
Champions League experience is overrated by posters on here. Bayern just won the competition with a 29 year old Dante playing at centre back, he didn't have any previous experience.

As for Lahm, he's been playing at right back for the past two seasons and Bayern have reached consecutive Champions League finals and were fantastic defensively last season, so I really don't see your point.

Having a left footer, Robben, on the right with him makes sense though, as does Ribery playing with Alaba on the left. I'm not saying a right footer can't play on the left, but you must surely be able to see that having at least one left footer on the left hand side is better than none. We'd be too predictable down that side with two right footers as both players on that side would be looking to cut inside constantly. If Giggs was 10 years younger I may feel differently about the whole situation.
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Well my point about Lahm was that he's been very successful as a right footer playing on the other flank. Also the point about the CL was that it's usually a factor when considering price as I said can't think of many 28 near 29 year old fullbacks going for that sort of price. But I can see where you're coming from but we should probably see how it works out before really writing it off. Also as I said Fabio would just be cover for now, even if we got Baines as I said I can't see anyway in which Evra would be staying as well, so either way we're gonna have to either bring in two left footed fullbacks if you don't want to see Fabio there and presumably don't trust Buttner there long term, or we'll try it out with Fabio as cover for the main fullback.

Either way the main point was that it seems completely unnecessary to get Baines when Evra is still here and from we understand wants to be here. If it comes out that Evra wanted a move than fair enough it's a good if expensive replacement, but if Evra's being moved on then it doesn't seem to make sense.
 
Ash_G said:
Evra has played like 50 plus games each season, you really don't change your fullbacks that often so I can't see how we're going to keep both of them.
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And I guess we won't. Next summer Evra will be 33 and may leave. Maybe he'll want to leave.
 
Amir said:
And I guess we won't. Next summer Evra will be 33 and may leave. Maybe he'll want to leave.
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Maybe we'd both be speculating though, and Evra looks fit enough to me to keep doing his role for at least two seasons, plenty time to see how Fabio is doing. As I said if Evra wants to go fair enough if not I think it's an odd transfer.
 
Ash_G said:
Either way the main point was that it seems completely unnecessary to get Baines when Evra is still here and from we understand wants to be here. If it comes out that Evra wanted a move than fair enough it's a good if expensive replacement, but if Evra's being moved on then it doesn't seem to make sense.
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If Moyes feels that Baines is a better left back than Evra, then it actually makes perfect sense.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
Well that's a great comparison.

Rvp was the worlds best striker. Baines is worse than evra and more suited to teams like Everton than those like united.

Evra was much younger when we got him and, again, had the talent to be the best fullback in the game (which he duly became). Baines will never be the best fullback around.
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Bravo, well done on missing the point entirely. My point was that people were complaining about being linked to (or actually signing) a player for a position that we apparently didnt need improving on cos we were doing pretty darn good in those positions.

Anyway, Baines was probably the best LB in the country last season.
 
Eyepopper said:
He hasn't shown it consistently at Utd yet, or at QPR last year. But he's 23, time is on his side.

Do you honestly think that signing a midfielder is dependent on whether or not we sign Baines?

Fair point in relation to the longevity Giggs has shown but I'm not sure our approach to balancing the age of the squad should be based on Giggs and his vulcanised rubber hamgstrings, and I don't think having Giggs here stopped us buying other wingers.

If you look at pretty much all other areas we have a good mix of youth, talent and experience. Not for me at LB. Evra's certainly a got the experience and talent, but like it or not I'd lay a heavy bet that, one way or another, he wont be at Utd in 18 months time. Will Fabio be ready to take on the first team spot at Manchester United in that time? Hopefully but it is 'hope' rather than certainty at this point.

Of course we need to address CM, worst kept secret in football, but you don't just ignore every other of the team until you do it.
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No, but it could very well affect the quality of midfielder we sign - particularly because of budget constraints. There's been loads of complaining on here as to why we only bid 30mil pounds for Fabregas and didn't really test Barca's resolve. Splashing 15mil or so on Baines on a position we don't absolutely need reinforcements in is hardly going to be the smartest use of funds.

I think we've got the right mix at LB right now with Evra, Fabio, Buttner. And isn't Man Utd all about giving young players a go when the time comes? Fabio's had his stint here, had a loan stint at QPR, his 23 which is not even that young - certaintly old enough to be starting games. The argument against Buttner is, for example, is that he isn't United quality. But Fabio IS United quality - the question against him is the consistency, which is something we can only test by playing him in a string of games.

You're entitled to your point and it is a fair point overall. I can see where you're coming from but honestly it is not a top priority signing... it probably ranks as no.3 after the two CM slots we need to reinforce.
 
I like Baines. I love Evra. If Baines coming in means that Evra is leaving, then I hope that we don't get him. However, if Evra is leaving regardless, than there is hardly anyone better that we can get without disrupting our team in the short term.
 
Sylar said:
Bravo, well done on missing the point entirely. My point was that people were complaining about being linked to (or actually signing) a player for a position that we apparently didnt need improving on cos we were doing pretty darn good in those positions.

Anyway, Baines was probably the best LB in the country last season.
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Well given Rooney was intended to be played behind the main striker as he has for majority of his united career, van Persie was miles better than the other options (welbeck and Hernandez). Baines is not miles better than evra. In fact he's probably not even better.

And more importantly, Rvp was the best striker around. Baines is never going to be as good as evra or cole were at their best. If we sign an experienced fullback it should at least be someone with that kind of potential. Rafael, for example, has that kind of potential.
 
LR7 said:
We don't.
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He's basically shafting his old team for a player we don't need. I don't think I like the idea of that.

Bestie07 said:
I like Baines. I love Evra. If Baines coming in means that Evra is leaving, then I hope that we don't get him. However, if Evra is leaving regardless, than there is hardly anyone better that we can get without disrupting our team in the short term.
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What real evidence do we have that Evra is leaving?
 
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