Leighton Baines

[JmRssll555]

I really don't understand our pursuit of Baines, even with Buttner potentially going off to Besiktas in this loan deal. Evra and Baines will both be expecting to play as the first choice left back this season, whichever club they're playing for eventually - that's not a good scenario for us to have.

Ideally, you want a first choice player for every position on the pitch, as well as a younger, developing player as back-up, or an older player who is happy in the knowledge they won't play regularly. We already have our first choice in Evra, and Fabio is suitable back-up I think, so I don't see where Baines fits in to the equation. That's assuming that Buttner does leave, but if he were to stay, then that would give us another solid enough back-up option.

I think if we are intent on getting Baines, then either Evra is leaving or Moyes sees the benefit of getting a slightly younger first choice left back in now, before Evra moves on maybe next summer. It's also possible that Moyes knows Baines is a solid purchase, and simply rates him more than Evra - added to the fact Moyes would be adding a player he trusts and has worked with before into the squad.

 

[ricky-romeo]

baines' stats look good except for his headed clearance and aerial duel success. while he is very good going forward he would be vulnerable in the air defensively.

 

[walsh]

If we didn't have Evra, I'd be all for signing Baines. Paddy is a massive part of this club and has been for quite some time now, he symbolises the drive and the passion of the United cause on top of being a real quality player. I'm just not sure how it would work having both him and Baines, you could say that it will negatively impact both because neither will be able to contribute week-in week-out. I'm very sceptical about this signing and what it would mean for one of our most experienced and influential players, I'm willing to back Moyes in bringing in Baines under the proviso that it doesn't mean the end of Evra's United career just yet.

 

[Andrew~]

The point of signing Baines, regardless of whether he is better than Evra or not, is that there is nothing wrong with competition. You can never have too many good players.

 

[RDCR07]

The point of signing Baines, regardless of whether he is better than Evra or not, is that there is nothing wrong with competition. You can never have too many good players.

Really then why dont we get another striker to compete with Hernandez and RVP? Why not get Eriksen to compete with Kagawa and Rooney? Why not get Begovic to compete with De Gea?

 

[Andrew~]

Really then why dont we get another striker to compete with Hernandez and RVP? Why not get Eriksen to compete with Kagawa and Rooney? Why not get Begovic to compete with De Gea?

I wouldn't mind that at all. Do you see Madrid hesitating from buying Isco when they have Di Maria, Kaka, Modric and Ozil? Or Bayern not buying Gotze because they already have Muller, Ribery, Kroos and Robben? They are even pursuing Lewandowski when they have Mandzukic. And recently acquired Thiago when they had one of the most stacked midfields in the world.

Top teams can handle competition.

 

[sglowrider]

It seems like a pointless exercise -- wrong priorities considering that he has been blabbing on about strengthening up the midfield. I may not have played footie at a professional level but I suspect LB ain't a midfield position.

Maybe more sinister; Moyes wants to breakup the group of senior players to consolidate his hold on the squad? Cloughie had similar problems when he went to Leeds.

 

[VII]

Play both Evra and Baines and let them do the random overlap thing. Like with Rafael and Valencia. Gary and Becks used to do that all the time. Even Brown.

And let Kagawa float around in a free role creating triangles.

 

[gooDevil]

It seems like a pointless exercise -- wrong priorities considering that he has been blabbing on about strengthening up the midfield. I may not have played footie at a professional level but I suspect LB ain't a midfield position.

Maybe more sinister; Moyes wants to breakup the group of senior players to consolidate his hold on the squad? Cloughie had similar problems when he went to Leeds.

Are you really comparing Moyes's reign at United to Clough's at Leeds?

 

[LR7]

Play both Evra and Baines and let them do the random overlap thing. Like with Rafael and Valencia. Gary and Becks used to do that all the time. Even Brown.

And let Kagawa float around in a free role creating triangles.

And have Nani, Welbeck, Valencia, Young, Zaha, Rooney and Januzaj all competing for one RW spot?

 

[LR7]

baines' stats look good except for his headed clearance and aerial duel success. while he is very good going forward he would be vulnerable in the air defensively.

Evra won 2.4 per cent more of his tackles, blocked twice as many shots, and was much more willing to put his head in where it hurts - he won 62.2 per cent of his 111 aerial duels, compared to just 39.3 per cent of 28 aerial duels for Baines.
The Manchester United captain also made more than twice the number of clearances, 165 to 75, and nearly three times as many headed clearances, 111 to 36.

His attacking stats only look so good because they come at the expense of defensive contribution. They're defenders. Evra beats him in that department.

 

[gooDevil]

I like the idea of getting a strong squad and letting the starting spots sort themselves out. We have a whole lot of games in a season, more than enough for Evra and Baines to share a position. Yes, it would probably hinder Fabio, but these things happen when you're trying to create the best team in the world. Hopefully Fabio is so good in training that he forces himself into some games, somewhere.

 

[Feed Me]

I don't understand this move in the slightest. Totally and utterly pointless. This is spending money for the sake of it.

 

[ciderman9000000]

baines' stats look good except for his headed clearance and aerial duel success. while he is very good going forward he would be vulnerable in the air defensively.

Ricky has it spot on, guys. I've been over it and over it and every time my calculations come out the same: Baines' great offensive stats and poor ariel duel success seems very much to indicate that he is good going forward but vulnerable in the air defensively.

Ricky, can you post the equation you used for the sake of correlation? I'm sure you're right but there's no harm in comparing our work in order to check for unforseen discrepancies. My own equation I've included below:

Spoiler

CAPABLE OFFENSIVE STATS = GOOD GOING FORWARD   
POOR ARIEL DUEL SUCCESS = VULNERABLE IN THE AIR

 

[Feed Me]

Ricky has it spot on, guys. I've been over it and over it and every time my calculations come out the same: Baines' great offensive stats and poor ariel duel success seems very much to indicate that he is good going forward but vulnerable in the air defensively.

Ricky, can you post the equation you used for the sake of correlation? I'm sure you're right but there's no harm in comparing our work in order to check for unforseen discrepancies. My own equation I've included below:

Spoiler

CAPABLE OFFENSIVE STATS = GOOD GOING FORWARD   
POOR ARIEL DUEL SUCCESS = VULNERABLE IN THE AIR

It's "aerial".

 

[Lawman]

It seems like a pointless exercise -- wrong priorities considering that he has been blabbing on about strengthening up the midfield. I may not have played footie at a professional level but I suspect LB ain't a midfield position.

Maybe more sinister; Moyes wants to breakup the group of senior players to consolidate his hold on the squad? Cloughie had similar problems when he went to Leeds.

You are away on a tangent sglowrider this is nothing like Leeds not even close. Paddy is getting on in years and does need replaced. Baines has been the best full back along with Zabaletta in the league for the last 2 years. Moyes has worked with him and knows this and wants to sign him. We have a real weakness at left back Paddy is fine but back up options are not strong enough. It would be a huge gamble exactly the same as just relying on Carrick but even worse Paddy is older than Carrick. And on another note full back is one of the most important positions on the park.

 

[ciderman9000000]

It's "aerial".

Back to the drawing board.

 

[LR7]

I'm not a fan of Keown but he gets it here:

I find Manchester United’s interest in Leighton Baines a little strange. He’s a super player; a top left back who is among the best players in Europe for providing assists for his team. Some achievement that.
But if Patrice Evra was already my left-back I’m not sure I’d be hurrying to replace him. He, too, is a marvellous full-back, but he has another proven quality that is all-important at United. He’s a winner.

When Sir Alex Ferguson walked away from the United dressing room for the last time, he would have looked back at certain individuals and felt he was leaving the club in good hands; in the care of senior players who understand what it means to play for Manchester United and what is expected of them.
Evra, I’m sure, would have been among the key men, along with guys like Rio Ferdinand, Nemanja Vidic and Ryan Giggs. Evra is a strong personality. Vocal, intelligent, a leader.
So why does Moyes feel the need to bring in Baines? Age might be a reason, given that Evra is now 32.
But Ryan Giggs has proved that 32 is nothing in the modern game — it’s also the same age as Ashley Cole and Jose Mourinho is in no rush to replace him. At nearly 29, Baines is not significantly younger.

I don’t see a great deal of difference between them as players, either. Defensively, they are much of a muchness.
The statistics do suggest Baines is more effective as an attacker, creating 116 chances for Everton last season compared to Evra’s 24 for United. But how much does that have to do with the way the two teams were set up?
The statistics also say that Evra is the more accurate passer of the ball, while they both made 52 appearances for their clubs last season.
Finally, there is no doubting Evra’s character. One only has to look at the success he has enjoyed at United. Exactly the kind of success Moyes hopes to experience, too.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2397435/Patrice-Evra-winner-does-David-Moyes-want-Leighton-Baines-Martin-Keown-insight.html#ixzz2cUfxP6lS

Only thing I will add is that they aren't much of a muchness defensively, Evra is superior.

 

[buckooo1978]

If we didn't have Evra, I'd be all for signing Baines. Paddy is a massive part of this club and has been for quite some time now, he symbolises the drive and the passion of the United cause on top of being a real quality player. I'm just not sure how it would work having both him and Baines, you could say that it will negatively impact both because neither will be able to contribute week-in week-out. I'm very sceptical about this signing and what it would mean for one of our most experienced and influential players, I'm willing to back Moyes in bringing in Baines under the proviso that it doesn't mean the end of Evra's United career just yet.

I agree totally with this

Baines might be statistically marginally better than Evra (which is debatable to some degree - Baines is a better crosser but then Everton are better in the air) but Evra is a leader in our dressing room and someone who has fully embraced what it means to be a Manchester United player. He has an understanding with the players around him and it could disrupt the squad.

Baines is a good player and if he was 22/23 I'd be interested as a long term replacement but thats not the case....

Get Fellaini and maybe go back for Baines next summer if needs be

 

[#07]

I'm not a fan of Keown but he gets it here:



Only thing I will add is that they aren't much of a muchness defensively, Evra is superior.

100 per cent agree.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

If Baines comes, thats Evra's United career (pointlessly) done for... you don't rotate left-backs, and you don't spend £15m+ on a left back you don't play...

Baines will come in and do a good job, but I think people will see and begin tol miss a lot of things that Evra contributes to our side that you just don't notice.

 

[Massive Spanner]

it's just disappointing that we're now seemingly resorting to getting his two favourite Everton players, after everything, especially as one of them isn't needed at all. It's like he wanted to make his mark of intent here by getting a great player and when that didn't happen he said "shit, uh, anyone else? No? Ok, get those two then!"

 

[NinjaFletch]

I'm not a fan of Keown but he gets it here:



Only thing I will add is that they aren't much of a muchness defensively, Evra is superior.

Evra's defensive ability is highly questionable, as is Baines'.

Also that whole article makes no sense, from the Ferguson angle he's peddling, because Ferguson tried to sign him too.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

it's just disappointing that we're now seemingly resorting to getting his two favourite Everton players, after everything, especially as one of them isn't needed at all. It's like he wanted to make his mark of intent here by getting a great player and when that didn't happen he said "shit, uh, anyone else? No? Ok, get those two then!"

I was going to make a similar post in the "Uniteds Summer Business" thread actually... but then I wondered whether it was a stupid thing to be disappointed about? We did aim for Fabregas afterall... but yeah, its otherwise seems that we've just stuck to what our manager knows about and thats it, which whilst maybe not disappointing per say, is underwhelming.

I mean, our Scouts have remained the same pretty much haven't they? Wheres the long list of potential targets/recommendations worth taking a punt on? (though maybe that's on the to do list after we wrap up the first "big signing" - not that I get the argument that Moyes' first signing needs to be a big name/deal, frankly, who gives a feck) Also, there must be some players that Moyes liked at Everton but couldn't have lured due to name value/finance?

Basically, what I'm trying to say is, stop reading my mind.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

it's just disappointing that we're now seemingly resorting to getting his two favourite Everton players, after everything, especially as one of them isn't needed at all. It's like he wanted to make his mark of intent here by getting a great player and when that didn't happen he said "shit, uh, anyone else? No? Ok, get those two then!"

Exactly how I feel. Feels like we're settling for "options" that will do well rather than improving the team big time.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

If Baines comes, thats Evra's United career (pointlessly) done for... you don't rotate left-backs, and you don't spend £15m+ on a left back you don't play...

Baines will come in and do a good job, but I think people will see and begin tol miss a lot of things that Evra contributes to our side that you just don't notice.

I don't see ever hitting the same heights that evra did. He just doesn't have the same ability. He'll be solid without being brilliant the way evra was. And to be fair evra has been in good form for awhile now. I don't see the sense in him leaving or being second choice at all.

I don't know. If evra goes, what kind of football are we trying to play? Fellaini and Baines replacing evra seems a lesser focus of technical and more on physicality and getting crosses in.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I was going to make a similar post in the "Uniteds Summer Business" thread actually... but then I wondered whether it was a stupid thing to be disappointed about? We did aim for Fabregas afterall... but yeah, its otherwise seems that we've just stuck to what our manager knows about and thats it, which whilst maybe not disappointing per say, is underwhelming.

I mean, our Scouts have remained the same pretty much haven't they? Wheres the long list of potential targets/recommendations worth taking a punt on? (though maybe that's on the to do list after we wrap up the first "big signing" - not that I get the argument that Moyes' first signing needs to be a big name/deal, frankly, who gives a feck) Also, there must be some players that Moyes liked at Everton but couldn't have lured due to name value/finance?

Basically, what I'm trying to say is, stop reading my mind.

I'm glad we were trying for players like Fabregas (however unlikely it was), it just seems like we targeted the best midfielder we could and said "let's try for him, after they've already sold their best young midfielder, for a fee way too low", I'm sure there was more to it than that but as you said, I'm a little confused as to why our seemingly vast scouting network couldn't find any other midfielders in Europe worth taking a shot on, and now, with two weeks left of the window, we're again trying to sign the two players that almost everyone assumed we'd sign at the beginning of it. Are there really that few talented young midfielders around? is it that hard to find a hidden gem like Vidic, Hernandez, Smalling etc?

 

[Decotron]

With Rafael on one side and Baines on the other would leave us very vunerable from set pieces.

Evra is miles better than Baines in the air. Over the course of a season it would cost us Id say....

 

[Isotope]

Look like we are concentrating on the league first (which is sensible), and Baines is a proven the best left back in the league for few years already. 15m isn't that much, looking up that bigger picture. And it helps that the new manager knows exactly on how to use him the best as possibly can. So the risk of Baines become a flop (like Young, etc.) is almost zero.

 

[humdinger]

This is stupid. We should have closed out the Baines deal weeks ago if we wanted him this badly and given him pre-season to settle in.

At least with Fellaini there's the excuse of the delay being due to him not being our first choice and us failing to get Fabregas. Unless we were secretly after other left backs between the first Baines offer and now then the delay has been daft.

 

[Isotope]

This is stupid. We should have closed out the Baines deal weeks ago if we wanted him this badly and given him pre-season to settle in.

At least with Fellaini there's the excuse of the delay being due to him not being our first choice and us failing to get Fabregas. Unless we were secretly after other left backs between the first Baines offer and now then the delay has been daft.

Yeah. Seems like our negotiator can only concentrate on one big deal at a time. Is it because of the budget constrain? who knows.

By the way, last week I got that job that I talked about a month ago; and never had the chance to say thanks for your help with the advice. Thank you.

 

[sincher]

Maybe the bid was for Fellaini and Barkley...

 

[humdinger]

Yeah. Seems like our negotiator can only concentrate on one big deal at a time. Is it because of the budget constrain? who knows.

By the way, last week I got that job that I talked about a month ago; and never had the chance to say thanks for your help with the advice. Thank you.

Congrats :-)

 

[Isotope]

Congrats :-)

Thanks, humdinger. From now on, I'm joining in the 'irregular sleep hours' club .

 

[LR7]

Evra's defensive ability is highly questionable, as is Baines'.

Also that whole article makes no sense, from the Ferguson angle he's peddling, because Ferguson tried to sign him too.

No it isn't. I know stats don't always tell you the whole story but from the stats that I posted earlier:

The fact that in an entire season Evra attempted 111 aerial duels and Baines only 28 is significant. The fact that Evra made 165 clearances whilst Baines only made 75 is significant. That Evra made a headed clearance 111 times and Baines only 36 is significant. He also puts his body on the line twice as much blocking twice as many shots. The only place where there isn't a significant difference is tackles and even then Evra is still slightly (2.4%) superior.

Yes there are other things to take into account but it's clear Evra is a better defender. We don't need Baines for his attacking qualities alone imo as scoring goals wasn't the problem last season, conceding them was, and adding Baines for Evra will only make us more vulnerable in that department imo.

 

[Eyepopper]

Personally I think the inability to comprehend why we're in for Baines comes down to peoples (rightly placed) loyalty and love for Evra.

I think most would agree they're both at a similar level as players. On their day both are great, probably better going forward than they are going back. So why bring Baines in? Well, for me it comes down to age, at this stage Evra is 32, and while still performing, he's not getting any younger.

His ability going forward is a big part of our attacking play, and the main worry I would have about replacing him, but given Baines record over the past couple of seasons I think he is capable of replicating it.

The question on Evra for me is how much longer will his legs allow him to get back from very advanced positions to cover? I think the answer to that is not long, he had a great season last year, proving that he's still among the best LB's in the world, but think back to the season or two before that, and IMO he was found wanting defensively a number of times.

Even someone who doesn't watch him train every day would have to think that over the next 18-24 months, at most, his ability to cover as much ground as he does will wain.

The question of cover also arises, in Fabio and Buttner we hardly have 2 first class proven deputies. The theory seems to be that Fabio is ready to step in and fill the void should Evra get injured (increasingly likely with age, particularly given the number of games he plays), but aside from a few sparse glimpses of Fabio's ability I really don't see why people have so much faith. Obviously I hope he continues to develop and gets to the level Rafael is at, but if Evra picked up an injury right now how many of us would be confident going into the next couple of fixtures with Fabio at LB?

Moving for a proven player a couple of years younger makes complete sense in my book, and I also suspect we'll hold on to Evra until Jan should we pick up Baines.

I doubt anyone really wants Evra to go, but its going to happen in the not too distant future, and if the right player is available now I can understand moving to bring them in now rather than wait for time to catch up with Evra.

 

[#07]

Personally I think the inability to comprehend why we're in for Baines comes down to peoples (rightly placed) loyalty and love for Evra.

I think most would agree they're both at a similar level as players. On their day both are great, probably better going forward than they are going back. So why bring Baines in? Well, for me it comes down to age, at this stage Evra is 32, and while still performing, he's not getting any younger.

His ability going forward is a big part of our attacking play, and the main worry I would have about replacing him, but given Baines record over the past couple of seasons I think he is capable of replicating it.

The question on Evra for me is how much longer will his legs allow him to get back from very advanced positions to cover? I think the answer to that is not long, he had a great season last year, proving that he's still among the best LB's in the world, but think back to the season or two before that, and IMO he was found wanting defensively a number of times.

Even someone who doesn't watch him train every day would have to think that over the next 18-24 months, at most, his ability to cover as much ground as he does will wain.

The question of cover also arises, in Fabio and Buttner we hardly have 2 first class proven deputies. The theory seems to be that Fabio is ready to step in and fill the void should Evra get injured (increasingly likely with age, particularly given the number of games he plays), but aside from a few sparse glimpses of Fabio's ability I really don't see why people have so much faith. Obviously I hope he continues to develop and gets to the level Rafael is at, but if Evra picked up an injury right now how many of us would be confident going into the next couple of fixtures with Fabio at LB?

Moving for a proven player a couple of years younger makes complete sense in my book, and I also suspect we'll hold on to Evra until Jan should we pick up Baines.

I doubt anyone really wants Evra to go, but its going to happen in the not too distant future, and if the right player is available now I can understand moving to bring them in now rather than wait for time to catch up with Evra.

Baines is 29 going to be 30 this season. Its not as if this bid is a great example of forward planning.

 

[Man-United]

I rather we sign a younger player than Baines. He would be needed to be replaced in a few years time.

 

[Eyepopper]

Baines is 29 going to be 30 this season. Its not as if this bid is a great example of forward planning.

Who said its supposed to be? He's also 28, 29 in December (Evra is 33 in May), so given we still have Fabio developing under him, I don't have a huge problem with his age. We could realistically expect to get about 4 years out of him before he gets to Evra's current age, in that time hopefully Fabio develops to be our first choice LB.

 

[Sylar]

Didnt people say RVP was a pointless signing as well. Or when Evra was signed when we had Heinze and Oshea?