La Liga/Serie A/Bundesliga Draft

How come Hazard wasn't picked? His current poor form? Thought he'd be an early pick especially considering the fact that the players level will be judged on their performances in the league unless I missunderstood that part. Awesome draft anyhow with some interesting first picks like Zlatan who will be a hard sell with just that one year at his peak for Milan.

EDIT: Missed the draft plot completely.
 
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Annahnomoss said:
How come Hazard wasn't picked? His current poor form? Thought he'd be an early pick especially considering the fact that the players level will be judged on their performances in the league unless I missunderstood that part. Awesome draft anyhow with some interesting first picks like Zlatan who will be a hard sell with just that one year at his peak for Milan.
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Hazard can't play for Lille nor Chelsea. Who will he represent?
 
Annahnomoss said:
Oh shit, thought this draft had EPL players available too. Haven't kept up much. :lol:
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:lol: Can't believe you first thought of fecking Hazard considering all the Premier League players missing.
 
Annahnomoss said:
How come Hazard wasn't picked? His current poor form? Thought he'd be an early pick especially considering the fact that the players level will be judged on their performances in the league unless I missunderstood that part. Awesome draft anyhow with some interesting first picks like Zlatan who will be a hard sell with just that one year at his peak for Milan.
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He was brilliant at Inter and Juve too?
 
Downcast said:
Clearly the greatest striker of All-time in the FRENCH league.
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Didn't want to start the discussion yesterday before the draft was finished, so that I could name other players, but is it really that clear cut? Has Zlatan really surpassed what Papin did at Marsaille? I thought, it should be at least a close call considering Papin's dominance and impact not only in the league but also in the CL (3times top scorer in the CL/European Cup) and the Ballon d'Or win.

There's also Just Fontaine who should rival Zlatan as the standout striker in the French league, right? It's not meant as criticism or anything like that, Zlatan has been sensational for PSG, but 'clearly the greatest striker of all time'? Is it really that obvious?
 
Balu said:
Didn't want to start the discussion yesterday before the draft was finished, so that I could name other players, but is it really that clear cut? Has Zlatan really surpassed what Papin did at Marsaille? I thought, it should be at least a close call considering Papin's dominance and impact not only in the league but also in the CL (3times top scorer in the CL/European Cup) and the Ballon d'Or win.

There's also Just Fontaine who should rival Zlatan as the standout striker in the French league, right? It's not meant as criticism or anything like that, Zlatan has been sensational for PSG, but 'clearly the greatest striker of all time'? Is it really that obvious?
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@Balu

Very hard to compare Fontaine playing in the 1950s with someone playing in the 2010s. Of course, the 1st one was a Fantastic Player with impressive stats: a Ballon d'Or in 1958!

However, Zlatan clearly surpassed what Papin did in the French league for 2 main reasons imho:

1. Papin is a traditional striker while Ibrahimovic is clearly more complete. On his day, Ibra is just unplayable: six foot five giant of a man with tremendous presence,vision and agility. The idol of Ibra is the Brazilian Ronaldo, that is why, he likes to play outside the penalty area and create opportunities for others. Papin is more selfish and tends to score the same kind of goals.

2. Papin relies on the quality of his teammates to perform well: he used to play for a team where he was the "Super Star". In Milan, he failed to impress and stand out because he was just one star among others. Ibrahimovic - alone - is able to make any promoted French team a title contender. Ibra impresses everyone, including the referees: he can shoot at them without getting a yellow card. French defenders are children next to him. He was successful everywhere.
 
Downcast said:
Very hard to compare Fontaine playing in the 1950s with someone playing in the 2010s. Of course, the 1st one was a Fantastic Player with impressive stats: a Ballon d'Or in 1958!
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Fontaine never won a Ballon d'Or, Papin did in the early 90's. Kopa won it in 1958. But yeah, it's difficult to compare to the modern era.

I kinda disagree on how you describe Papin (he had a great shortpassing game and was quality at linking play in the final third) and on the reasons he failed at Milan (injuries and age played a big role) though and I don't think that should really matter regarding what he did in the French league anyway.

I agree that Zlatan is obviously a more complete player than Papin ever was, or better he has become one over the last 5 years. Not sure the comparison to Ronaldo fits, because Ronaldo became a rather limited and one dimensional finisher and his overall impact on games became less and less, when he declined physically, while it's the exact opposite for Zlatan. Zlatan at PSG isn't comparable to any incarnation of Ronaldo, in fact, I'd say he's really unique in how his playing style developed during his physical decline.

That being said, I still struggle to accept that he's head and shoulders above what Papin did at Marsaille. At least it should be a close call. Papin's impact and dominance over the league felt unreal back then.
 
Balu said:
Fontaine never won a Ballon d'Or, Papin did in the early 90's. Kopa won it in 1958. But yeah, it's difficult to compare to the modern era.

I kinda disagree on how you describe Papin (he had a great shortpassing game and was quality at linking play in the final third) and on the reasons he failed at Milan (injuries and age played a big role) though and I don't think that should really matter regarding what he did in the French league anyway.

I agree that Zlatan is obviously a more complete player than Papin ever was, or better he has become one over the last 5 years. Not sure the comparison to Ronaldo fits, because Ronaldo became a rather limited and one dimensional finisher and his overall impact on games became less and less, when he declined physically, while it's the exact opposite for Zlatan. Zlatan at PSG isn't comparable to any incarnation of Ronaldo, in fact, I'd say he's really unique in how his playing style developed during his physical decline.

That being said, I still struggle to accept that he's head and shoulders above what Papin did at Marsaille. At least it should be a close call. Papin's impact and dominance over the league felt unreal back then.
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@Balu

Regarding the 1958 Ballon d'Or: shame on me :D

Of course, Ronaldo is unique: my point was just to say Ibra likes to score and create things while Papin is obsessed with scoring.

Papin played in France for 6 years while Ibra is playing his 4th season: it complicates the comparison :)
 
Across the board Papin seems to be a little under-appreciated. A Ballon D'Or winner with several years of world-class goalscoring and centre-forward play behind him who rarely gets the call up to these drafts. I'd give Ibra the nod over the course of their careers, but as for their impact in the French league there's not much in it at all.
 
I agree Papin seems somewhat under-appreciated in these things. Not sure what it is, really. There's a certain category of player who probably ends up disproportionally under-picked because there's nearly always either better or more shiny alternatives availble. I think that might be Papin's problem more than anything - because he seems to be highly enough rated, as such: I can't recall anyone positively undermining his credentials.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
I agree Papin seems somewhat under-appreciated in these things. Not sure what it is, really. There's a certain category of player who probably ends up disproportionally under-picked because there's nearly always either better or more shiny alternatives availble. I think that might be Papin's problem more than anything - because he seems to be highly enough rated, as such: I can't recall anyone positively undermining his credentials.
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Papin's best football was certainly in France. He had a good first season at Milan but not at his best. Then essentially he was past it afterwards. Hard to pick him ahead of so many attacking options
 
Enigma_87 said:
Papin's best football was certainly in France. He had a good first season at Milan but not at his best. Then essentially he was past it afterwards. Hard to pick him ahead of so many attacking options
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Yeah, I was commenting on Gio's remark, which was mainly about him versus Ibrahimovic in the French league - it's by no means surprising he wasn't picked in this particular draft.
 
You need someone to pick Papin in a draft and write love letters or massive stories about him. Done the trick for many others.
 
RedTiger said:
Sorry for the late reply jogs, my wife has given me the flu and I'm not feeling too well.

I can do hopefully Sunday night/monday onwards. Is that OK with you guys?
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Get well soon.

Monday/Tuesday fine with you then?
 
Gio said:
Across the board Papin seems to be a little under-appreciated. A Ballon D'Or winner with several years of world-class goalscoring and centre-forward play behind him who rarely gets the call up to these drafts. I'd give Ibra the nod over the course of their careers, but as for their impact in the French league there's not much in it at all.
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Chesterlestreet said:
I agree Papin seems somewhat under-appreciated in these things. Not sure what it is, really. There's a certain category of player who probably ends up disproportionally under-picked because there's nearly always either better or more shiny alternatives availble. I think that might be Papin's problem more than anything - because he seems to be highly enough rated, as such: I can't recall anyone positively undermining his credentials.
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Of course, any Ballon d'Or deserves to be part of the tournament. Hum, I have a great consideration for the career of Papin but I am just disappointed by:

- his career abroad with Milan & Bayern
- his performances with France: non-qualification for the WC 1990, disappointing Euro 1992 & non-qualification for the WC 1994

That is why, Papin was blacklisted since 1994 until the end of his career: only 54 caps with France (30 goals) while we have players like Thierry Henry or Ibrahimovic with more than 100 caps.

Once again, Papin was a fantastic scorer but you know why I am unfortunately inclined to under-appreciate him.
 
Snow said:
Cantona has less caps than that. I'm not going to hold that against him.
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You're right.

I just illustrate the fact that some foreign National coaches used to under-appreciate Papin.

End of the debate about Papin :)
 
Player Profiles:
Part 1 - Defence​
Stefan Klos :
The mighty Stefan Klos is a part of the German goalkeeper mania in the 90s, with so many brilliant keeper bursting out in these years. Klos has over 250 Bundesliga matches for Dortmund in his 8 seasons, and was a major part of their first CL triumph in the 96-97 in a season he didn't miss a single match. He also won the Uefa Cup, Intercontinental cup and the Bundesliga twice as Dortmund's #1. After his time at Dortmund, Klos was bought by Scottish giants Rangers, where he played for 8 more season until he retired. Klos was one of the keepers to miss out on major National Team action following the form of Oliver Kahn and Andreas Kopke.
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Dani Carvajal :
24 years old today, a CL winner, and probably the most promising RB in the world atm. In the summer of 2012 Real Madrid decided the let their B team's captain some much needed European experience and sold him to Bayer Leverkuzen for 5m Euros, with a buy-back clause for 6.5m if they want to buy him back after a season. Carvajal went to Leverkuzen desperate to show what he's got playing with the big boy of the BuLi, and so he did. Carvajal's one and only season in the Bundesliga was an incredible one, immediately winning the first team jersey Carvajal played 32 games that season helping Bayern find a CL spot again. In his only season in the Bundesliga, Carvajal was named 3rd best RB after Lahm and Uchida. Following Carvajal's amazing debut season in the Bundesliga, Real Madrid jumped on the opportunity to buy him back and got themselves a world class RB after a top notch season. His first season in Real Madrid went to be a huge success as well as he was a constant part of the first team that won the CL in 2013/14 winning a place in the Champions League Team of the Season.
Showing his relentlessness and winning a critical assist against Bayern Munich which led to a win:
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Thiago Silva:
"I can say Thiago Silva has no rival in his position. He is by far the best defender in the world. It's a compliment for me to be compared to him." - Paolo Maldini.
Thiago Silva is beyond a shade of a doubt the best CB of this generation. He is very complete and has all the necessary attributes of a legend: he's strong, aggressive, tremendously good at reading situations and covering for his partner, good on the ball, a big leader and pretty much what strikers hate to come up against. When Silva was in Milan not only he learned from the best like Nesta & Maldini, he made a name for himself by marshalling a very mediocre Milan defensive line in 2010-11 with Abate and ageing Zambrotta-Nesta to a first Seria A title since 2003-04, ending a 7 season drought. Sadly for us, Silva chose money over competition and went to PSG after 3 seasons in Milan to follow his real passion(money).
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Walter Samuel :
Javier Zanetti once said about Samuel that he is the "hardest player" he ever played with, and for a very good reason. Samuel was a very strong tackler and perfect for the roughness of these years' Seria A. Samuel formed a world class CB partnership with T.Silva's fellow Brazilian Lucio, and he got the nickname in Italy "Il Muro"(Aka "The Wall"). Samuel was pivotal for Inter's Triple run in 2009-10 lead by Mourinho, playing all 13 CL matches in that season and 28 more in the league and winning Seria A's "Defender of the Year 2010". With 13 seasons of Seria A experience, he will form a classic Seria A defensive shield with T.Silva.
The only way to stop Brazilian Ronaldo :D


Eric Abidal :
The man one who beat cancer, Abidal is one of my personal favourite defenders. If I can quote @antohan, he's "A left flank version of Lillian Thuram". Abidal could play LCB, CB, LB - you name it, and that is thanks to his amazing understanding of the game he offers a lot of calmness into possession with his ball control and some top notch positioning that made him the calming influence on Barca's defence. He arrived at Barcelona at 2007 from Lyon and played there for 6 seasons, in March 2011 the fan favourite was diagnosed with Liver Cancer and only two days later he went for surgery which sidelined him for several different periods. In the 2010-11 CL final Puyol gave Abidal the respect of wearing the Captain's armband in what will prove to be his last CL final for Barcelona. Abidal won 4 La Liga titles, 2 Copa del Reys, 2 Spanish Supercups and 2 Champion Leagues and 1 La Liga Defender of the year as one of the club's all time favourite.
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Player Profiles:​

Part 2 - Midfield​


Pep Guardiola:
When Pep was 13, the Catalunya grown teen joined La Masia until making his first team debut in 1990. Coached by Johan Cruyff, Pep came to the first team to replace the injured Guillermo Amor and quickly became a first team regular at the age of 20. He was a major part of the team to be later called "The Dream Team" who won the European Cup in 1991-92 and won 3 consecutive La Liga titles from that year. Guardiola would later stay in the club until 2001 and the age of 30 and the rest is history. The Mastermind of possession game was a classic pivot DM - a tidy defensive midfielder with very good passing range and untouchable on the ball, Guardiola kept "The Dream Team"s possession and cleared the threat with his neat tackling to retain possession and move forward. The rest is history and he would later become one of the best coaches in history winning everything there is to win with Barcelona, his home club.
"In his first week at the club, Johan Cruyff turned up unannounced at the 'Mini' stadium, a venue just down the road from Camp Nou used by the youth and B teams. Just before half-time he wandered into the dug-out and asked Charly Rexach, the youth team manager at the time, the name of the young lad playing on the right side of midfield. 'Guardiola – good lad' came the reply. Cruyff ignored the comment and told Rexach to move him into the middle for the second half, to play as pivot. It was a difficult position to adapt to and one not used by many teams in Spain at the time. Guardiola adjusted immediately, as Cruyff had suspected he would, and when he moved up into the first-team in 1990 he became the pivot of the Dream Team."


Sami Khedira:
Every great team needs a working horse to run it, and Sami Khedira has been a part of plenty. He started his career for German club Stuttgart, he had his debut on 2006-07 in January, quickly becoming a regular bench player and a first team player for the latter end of a Bundesliga winning season by Stuttgart, their first and last title since 1992. After his very good debut season he became a first team regular. After 4 seasons for Stuttgart he was bought by Real Madrid who payed 10.5 Million Pounds for him and became a regular first team player as the working machine. He won the CL with Real Madrid before being replaced with Kroos. He has 59 caps and was an integral part of the German National Team that dominated the World Cup in 2014. Khedira loves making runs from deep into the box, and although he may not be the most technically gifted player, he's runs between defenders are always gives them headaches and opens up defences. In the same time, you can always trust him to be back on defence when the opponents attack, and be the hardest working player in the team.


Wesley Sneijder:
The one who kept on being linked to us, and rightly so. At his Inter peak he was the best attacking midfielder in the world, moving between CM-CAM and the left flank space, has absolute world class passing from close & long range, a constant threat from long range and a player with masterful technique. Sneijder grew up in the Ajax academy which produced so many stars throughout the season before being snatched by Real Madrid. His time at the Spanish giants wasn't Sneijder's best and a lot of people were saying he won't live to potential, but after joining Inter he found his form again and was probably their most important player in the run for the treble season in 2009-10. Sneijder went on to write 120 caps for the Dutch NT leading them alongside Robben to 2nd and 3rd place in 2010 & 2014 respectively.
These are the personal awards he won during his time in Inter:
My favourite Sneijder goal:
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Player Profiles:​
Part 3 - Attack​

Robinho:
The young Brazilian from Sao Paolo was once considered to be "The Next Pele" by no other than Pele, he had on the ball skills of a genius and at the age of 21 he was snapped by Real Madrid. At his debut season he got the #10 shirt perviously worn by Figo, Robinho made 37 appearances and scored 14 goals on his debut European season in Real Madrid becoming a first team regular in January. He played on either side of the wings or as a second striker, Robinho gained reputation quickly after winning "player of the match" in his first Classico against Barcelona. The next season Robinho scored 11 and gave 8 assists with Schuster as the coach. Late at 2007-08 season Robinho got injured with stopped magnificent progress and made him lose his spot in the Madrid side. After a brief spell in City he went to Milan in the Seria A and become incredibly important to their side, scoring 14 goals in his first season there winning the Seria A for the first time in 8 seasons.


Thomas Müller:
26 Years old. This is how young this player who has the experience of a 32 y.o player and the work rate of a 23 y.o. Muller made his debut in 2008 and instantly became a first team regular for Bayern at the age of 20 and under LVG. Playing in either side of the wing, a striker or SS Muller is one of the most versatile attackers in history, and is regarded already on of the best Bundesliga players in history. He made 222 appearances for Bayern in the Bundesliga, scoring 88 goals and 82 assists for almost 1 goal/assist per match, you know his going to provide. He already has 68 caps and 31 goals and in the 2010 World Cup he finished both high scorer and combined top assists with 4 other players. His list of achievements is absolutely ridicules.
Bayern Munich
Germany
Individual
& for desert:


Samuel Eto'o:
One of the most lethal strikers in recent centuries, Eto'o was the executer for Barcelona's amazing years under Rijkaard. He is everything you want from a #9 - lethal as it gets, rapid and makes constant movements between the defenders and my god, does he know how to get to a pass. Eto'os record speak for itself with 129 goals and 36 assists in 198 games for Barcelona, winning 3 CL trophies, 2 with Barcelona & 1 with Inter, scoring in two of them and gave an assist in the third, with one with him being Man of the Match, 3 La Liga titles, 3rd place in Player of the Year award, 1 pichichi & 1 WC golden ball award. An unstoppable monster of a striker at his prime.
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Interesting :) So, I have to prepare some things now and send it in the next 2 hours.

Should I send my presentation to @Marty1968 ? Or someone else?

Who is able to create a specific thread regarding the game and implement a poll?
 
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