Kylian Mbappe | PSG

[Fortitude]

Impressive how Ronaldo changed from being a complete big game choker to a the personification of human winning mentality once he played with the right team mates.

God, do I hate this rating of individuals based on team success in short knockout tournaments highly dependent on luck.

Do you think an extrapolated league format, heavily favouring über squads is a superior barometer?

Club football has become so heavily tilted it is no better than international football, which is why cynics and those wishing to evaluate the true net worth of a player consider the whole - both with their god squads, and without. Players that thrive irrespective obviously granted the highest kudos and unconditional regard.

 

[Ecstatic]

Your first point leaves you in a bit of a logical conundrum regarding Mbappe. The French players went into this World Cup as the most privileged due to them having the best squad of any nation. They left at home a back 4 better than Argentina could put in their first XI, for example. Mbappe had a good World Cup, not a great one, so how are we to elevate him in light of his privileges?

Because he scored 4 goals, including 3 critical ones. Being decisive when it really matters is a gift.

Again, I wasn't discounting his physical gifts, although I think its natural to value technical qualities higher, intelligence and skill are more admired in football. My other sub-point on the matter was that plenty of players lose a yard naturally by their mid-twenties naturally, whilst some, like Michael Owen and Luis Ronaldo, lose their explosiveness altogether through an injury. Point being, betting on a player that relies on physical qualities to set them apart (more than Messi does, for example) to sustain an amazing career is a risk.

And again, I wasn't saying that Mbappe is not a Ballon D'Or level player (he is), he could go on to have a career similar to CR7 (I wouldn't bet on it though) but Messi is viewed by the majority consensus as a level above that. Trying to compare any player to Messi is foolhardy, in my opinion, he's the best technical player ever seen and he has unreal end product and consistency to match that. Moreover, even CR7's truly incredible achievements in game still leave him in Messi's shadow as a player, by the consensus opinion.

I agree with you. That said, M'bappé is not a copy of Nicolas Anelka or Emile Heskey and benefits from the combination of diverse skills:

1) Pace, which would gradually decline. Ballon d'Or like Owen, Kaká, R9... all had this aspect of the game.

2) Power, which wasn't the case of a player like Owen and Kaká

3) Efficiency or killer instinct: suffice to look at his stats

4) Thanks to the above, tactical versatility: when he will lose his pace, he can become a target striker or reinvent his style of play.A player like Zlatan did that by becoming a false 9 at PSG. Cristiano stopped to be a winger in order to be more centrally focused. He can play on the wings or a central striker.

5) the most important thing: exceptional mindset
- Those who speak French can see the difference with Ousmane Dembélé, Martial, Benzema, Ben Arfa, Menez, Rabiot, Anelka, Luccin, Dalmat...
- Truly programmed to go higher: father football coach, mother former handball player, father friend of the M'boma family (Patrick being the African football player of the year 2000)
- Thanks to this mindset, he was good for PSG last season despite a) changing of club b) playing as a right-forward against support striker the year before in a 4-4-2 system at Monaco and c) the burden of a transfer fee (180 millions of euros). On top of that, this very young player made an impact for France at the world cup.
=> The only one similar player in this regard is Henry whose father was extremely demanding and particular

His technical skills are more limited than the other players mentioned but he isn't a one-stringed player.

Messi, CR7 and Ronaldo would be greater players forever - not a shame really - but he won't be far away at the end of his career IF preserved from injuries which are the only element that can stop him.

 

[Zehner]

Do you think an extrapolated league format, heavily favouring über squads is a superior barometer?

Club football has become so heavily tilted it is no better than international football, which is why cynics and those wishing to evaluate the true net worth of a player consider the whole - both with their god squads, and without. Players that thrive irrespective obviously granted the highest kudos and unconditional regard.

That's all been discussed time and again. I'm not willing to repeat the same arguments for the x. time. The arguments you name are superficial and coined by double standards IMO. But that's not the topic here which is Mbappe.

 

[JPRouve]

Do you think an extrapolated league format, heavily favouring über squads is a superior barometer?

Club football has become so heavily tilted it is no better than international football, which is why cynics and those wishing to evaluate the true net worth of a player consider the whole - both with their god squads, and without. Players that thrive irrespective obviously granted the highest kudos and unconditional regard.

But even if you compare their international careers from a statistical standpoint they are in the same bracket and in terms of team results overall Argentina has outperformed Portugal. Portugal did win the Euro but Ronaldo wasn't on the field.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

But even if you compare their international careers from a statistical standpoint they are in the same bracket and in terms of team results overall Argentina has outperformed Portugal. Portugal did win the Euro but Ronaldo wasn't on the field.

He was on the field for the vast majority of the tournament. What's next 'Mario GOATze'?

 

[Zehner]

Messi, CR7 and Ronaldo would be greater players forever - not a shame really - but he won't be far away at the end of his career IF preserved from injuries which are the only element that can stop him

Not sure anyone is seriously denying that? The only thing I and some others point out is that he doesn't look as talented as Messi and Ronaldo because he lacks some important aspects of their game (this incredible close control and technical ability. Additionally the passing skills in Messi's case and the extreme strength in Ronaldo's). It is more difficult with Cristiano since he looked technically better but his lack of maturity made him a significantly lesser player at the same age.

But I think most people you are discussing with would agree with the conclusion I quoted above. Nobody is really denying that he has Ballon D'Or level potential or can't come anywhere near the mentioned plaers - he is simply not the same level of "prodigy" that the Argentinian and Brazilian were.

 

[JPRouve]

He was on the field for the vast majority of the tournament. What's next 'Mario GOATze'?

And Portugal were really poor, they struggled against pretty much every team despite the fact they were on the "easier" side of the draw.

 

[JSArsenal]

Particularly when Argentina can't develop a single decent fullback, CM, DM or CB. Also Higuain and Aguero have been generally subpar for Argentina.

Subpar is putting it very, very nicely. It has always amazed me how Messi gets all the criticism for Argentina's failings while those two (mainly Aguero to be fair) get off lightly.

 

[shamans]

In my opinion the usual is happening: everyone here is overeating past players to a whole new level.

Let me just say Ronaldo the great Brazilian striker has become "better" each year since he has retired. No doubt he was a great player but unless you are thinking of a hypothetical scenario (him staying injury free) I dont believe there is any argument to have him higher than messi or Ronaldo

But the thing that is going for Brazilian Ronaldo is the world cup. And this is why I keep telling people international tournaments can truly seal your greatness if you've built it in club football

The argument that mbappe is not technically as gifted and so has a lesser chance is rubbish imo. At this level (world cup winning strikers) all players have the technique to do something great. For instance quaresma or adel Taraabt have incredible technique and first touch but Micheal carrick is the greater player.

Technique is really overrated by football fans. The mentality/drive and ability to perform on the big stage is what truly separates the greats from the goods.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Messi, CR7 and Ronaldo would be greater players forever - not a shame really - but he won't be far away at the end of his career IF preserved from injuries which are the only element that can stop him.

No doubt he'll be one of the World's best for years to come but I don't think he'll ever be this guy

'He plays like he’s on PlayStation, it’s unbelievable. People who say otherwise either don’t know anything about football or are just talking nonsense.' Zlatan

I am not crazy enough to compare myself with Messi because he is the best there ever was and the best there will ever be. Mario Gomez

Lionel Messi is out of this world, he's an alien. For me, he is the best player in the history of football Turan

Messi is an alien, that dedicates himself to playing with humans. Buffon

Messi is out of this planet, I would say he is so far ahead of the rest of the players playing right now and I would say historically as well. There are not words to describe him Ardilles

For me, Messi is the greatest. I played with Romario, Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Michael Laudrup and Stoichkov but Messi is the best I’ve seen. He has evolved in a way that nobody could expect. Ferrer

Sometimes I ask myself if Messi is human Henry

 

[shamans]

Subpar is putting it very, very nicely. It has always amazed me how Messi gets all the criticism for Argentina's failings while those two (mainly Aguero to be fair) get off lightly.

Trite excuse. Messi has been garbage for Argentina plenty of times (and good too).

I love how everyone remembers higuain missing goals but dont bother to think about him bailing Messi out in the group stages.

He is a wizard but never had the leadership or mentality for a proper international stage win. He has bottled it so many times now it's no coincidence. This "Argentina let's messo down" is very lazy thinking imo

 

[JPRouve]

Trite excuse. Messi has been garbage for Argentina plenty of times (and good too).

I love how everyone remembers higuain missing goals but dont bother to think about him bailing Messi out in the group stages.

He is a wizard but never had the leadership or mentality for a proper international stage win. He has bottled it so many times now it's no coincidence. This "Argentina let's messo down" is very lazy thinking imo

You see I don't get this type of posts or their tone. Portugal hasn't been better than Argentina during the same period of time, both Ronaldo and Messi have incredible raw stats for their NT and they have both been let down by the fact that neither benefited from decent support at that level. The way I see people talk, you would swear that Portugal have been good.

Edit: We shouldn't discuss this in this thread, so I will stop here.

 

[JSArsenal]

Trite excuse. Messi has been garbage for Argentina plenty of times (and good too).

I love how everyone remembers higuain missing goals but dont bother to think about him bailing Messi out in the group stages.

He is a wizard but never had the leadership or mentality for a proper international stage win. He has bottled it so many times now it's no coincidence. This "Argentina let's messo down" is very lazy thinking imo

I never said Messi should or shouldn't be criticized. Its just you win together, you lose together. One man alone shouldn't have to answer for the entire team's failings especially when he is surrounded by several other players who are considered and consider themselves to be world class.

Whenever the Golden Generation failed, it wasn't just Beckham (1998 excluded) who was lambasted.

 

[Ecstatic]

No doubt he'll be one of the World's best for years to come but I don't think he'll ever be this guy

'He plays like he’s on PlayStation, it’s unbelievable. People who say otherwise either don’t know anything about football or are just talking nonsense.' Zlatan

I am not crazy enough to compare myself with Messi because he is the best there ever was and the best there will ever be. Mario Gomez

Lionel Messi is out of this world, he's an alien. For me, he is the best player in the history of football Turan

Messi is an alien, that dedicates himself to playing with humans. Buffon

Messi is out of this planet, I would say he is so far ahead of the rest of the players playing right now and I would say historically as well. There are not words to describe him Ardilles

For me, Messi is the greatest. I played with Romario, Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Michael Laudrup and Stoichkov but Messi is the best I’ve seen. He has evolved in a way that nobody could expect. Ferrer

Sometimes I ask myself if Messi is human Henry

Spoiler: Sorry for my post

https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/23-best-quotes-steven-gerrard-one-fairytales/

 

[Classical Mechanic]

https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/23-best-quotes-steven-gerrard-one-fairytales/

Spoiler: Personal comments

Gerrard came third in the Ballon D'Or one season and he was the one player that Zidane twice requested Real to sign to play alongside him. For a decent number of people he was the best midfielder in the world in that era.

That said, there's no player that evokes the 'best ever', 'God' and 'alien' comments from him his fellow pros like Messi does. i think he's the only player I've ever heard described as an 'alien'.

 

[Fortitude]

That's all been discussed time and again. I'm not willing to repeat the same arguments for the x. time. The arguments you name are superficial and coined by double standards IMO. But that's not the topic here which is Mbappe.

Convenient.

But even if you compare their international careers from a statistical standpoint they are in the same bracket and in terms of team results overall Argentina has outperformed Portugal. Portugal did win the Euro but Ronaldo wasn't on the field.

hey, I'm just saying . Whatever is happening in this thread is a little too chaotic; seems like the discussion is all over the place to me.

 

[Ecstatic]

Too many imaginary debates here

 

[Oly Francis]

Impressive how Ronaldo changed from being a complete big game choker to a the personification of human winning mentality once he played with the right team mates.

God, do I hate this rating of individuals based on team success in short knockout tournaments highly dependent on luck.

How else are you supposed to rate a player? You have to take his contribution to the team into account, otherwise we'll rate street soccer players higher than regular soccer pros because it would be all about skills. Can you entertain the idea that Ronaldo evolved? And it's not as if we were comparing players on 1 knockout 4 games tournament, there's at least one each year and final stages are 7 games + euro + WC + copa america, that's plenty to compare pretty accurately.

Unless you're telling me Messi only had the right teamates once in 7 years. And winning 4 CL in 5 years isn't luck, the same way that scoring 0 goals in 8 knockout WC games isn't being unlucky. At one point we need to stop making excuses for Messi just because he's tremendously talented.

I just hope Mbappé keeps this winning mindset that will make him work hard every day for 10 more years, otherwise he won't reach CR7/Messi's level. But if he does and keeps improving, everything is possible.

Mbappe has great decision making for his age. This is the part of the game you normally improve the most as you get older. I think he’s probably closer to his ceiling now than say C Ronaldo was at the same age. I’ve no doubt he’s going to be a great player, maybe the worlds best, but I don’t think he will ever achieve what Ronaldo has. I’m certain he won’t ever reach Messi level. You could argue no one in the last 100 years is as talented as Messi. The chance of another player of that level coming along so soon are pretty low. We’d be incredibly lucky if it did happen!

So if i'm very good at math at age 8, does it mean i'll peak at 13 and stop improving? No, it means that i'll probably still be better than others when i get older and keep getting even better. And btw, Mbappé still has a lot of improvement to make in his decision making, he still misses a lot of 1v1.

 

[De Portago]

Technique is really overrated by football fans. The mentality/drive and ability to perform on the big stage is what truly separates the greats from the goods.

Would be interesting if you asked Man Utd fans if Keane was a better player than George Best. If mentality and drive are that important, majority would pick Keane, no?

 

[Fortitude]

Would be interesting if you asked Man Utd fans if Keane was a better player than George Best. If mentality and drive are that important, majority would pick Keane, no?

When George Best was at his best his will to win was immense, so not the best example.

What you've veered off into is discipline and professionalism over an extended period of time.

 

[shamans]

Would be interesting if you asked Man Utd fans if Keane was a better player than George Best. If mentality and drive are that important, majority would pick Keane, no?

I'm not saying technique doesnt matter. Not to mention Best actually achieved a lot on the pitch as well so he was mentally strong too (the obvious weaknesses he had off the pitch are different imo)

I'm more referring to a player who might be excellent technically but mentally frail on the pitch vs someone with decent technique but supreme mentality especially for big games.

Edit: I'm willing to bet we have better technical players than lingard in our academy but there's a reason lingard starts and not januzaj

 

[Sandikan]

Gerrard came third in the Ballon D'Or one season and he was the one player that Zidane twice requested Real to sign to play alongside him. For a decent number of people he was the best midfielder in the world in that era.

That said, there's no player that evokes the 'best ever', 'God' and 'alien' comments from him his fellow pros like Messi does. i think he's the only player I've ever heard described as an 'alien'.

Lampard came 2nd that same year, so on that logic Gerrard wasn't even the best midfielder in England that year.

 

[De Portago]

I'm not saying technique doesnt matter. Not to mention Best actually achieved a lot on the pitch as well so he was mentally strong too (the obvious weaknesses he had off the pitch are different imo)

I'm more referring to a player who might be excellent technically but mentally frail on the pitch vs someone with decent technique but supreme mentality especially for big games.

Edit: I'm willing to bet we have better technical players than lingard in our academy but there's a reason lingard starts and not januzaj

Messi has had a couple of episodes for sure, but calling him frail is very much over the top. He won one CL less than Ronaldo while picking up 9 leagues and what 5-6 national cups along the way. God knows what would his trophy haul be if he wasn't "frail".

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Lampard came 2nd that same year, so on that logic Gerrard wasn't even the best midfielder in England that year.

I said for 'a decent amount of people' Zidane included, others felt Lampard was obviously. We're derailing the thread, however.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

Lampard came 2nd that same year, so on that logic Gerrard wasn't even the best midfielder in England that year.

Lampard was hardly a midfielder for Chelsea - he was a SS/AM playing being Drogba. Was a player who was there to score goals.

Gerrard was much more the complete midfielder during that era - except ofcourse for Scholes.

 

[Oly Francis]

Messi has had a couple of episodes for sure, but calling him frail is very much over the top. He won one CL less than Ronaldo while picking up 9 leagues and what 5-6 national cups along the way. God knows what would his trophy haul be if he wasn't "frail".

The pressure in Liga where you win a title throughout the entire season is impossible to compare to CL/WC/Copa America. That's the whole point, where CR7 thrives under pressure, Messi has a tendancy, for several year, to disapear when the pressure is too high, he simply is unable to carry his team the way Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona etc. did.

 

[Sandikan]

Lampard was hardly a midfielder for Chelsea - he was a SS/AM playing being Drogba. Was a player who was there to score goals.

Gerrard was much more the complete midfielder during that era - except ofcourse for Scholes.

Gerrard was barely trusted in a straight centre mid role himself by a number of managers. His best form was further forward.

 

[shamans]

Messi has had a couple of episodes for sure, but calling him frail is very much over the top. He won one CL less than Ronaldo while picking up 9 leagues and what 5-6 national cups along the way. God knows what would his trophy haul be if he wasn't "frail".

No Messi is not frail. A frail players doesn't do half of what Messi has done. I am just giving an extreme example of being frail versus having perfect mentality just to prove a point regarding the differences.

I do believe Messi lacks a bit in the Mentality department but only if you compare him to players like Ronaldo or Zidane.

 

[Ecstatic]

 

[De Portago]

The pressure in Liga where you win a title throughout the entire season is impossible to compare to CL/WC/Copa America. That's the whole point, where CR7 thrives under pressure, Messi has a tendancy, for several year, to disapear when the pressure is too high, he simply is unable to carry his team the way Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona etc. did.

Did Cristiano Ronaldo disappear every year in the CL from 2009-2013, and is it a proof of his mentality not being good enough, seeing as it stands currently you either win the trophy or are a choker/mentally fragile?

Also R9 and Maradona have a nice combined total of zero elite European club trophies. It's as if those players never had an off game and were leaders 24/7 throughout their careers.

Apologies in advance to the moderators since this probably belongs in the VS thread, but it somehow just keeps spilling everywhere unfortunately.

 

[Bwuk]

Find it absolutely mental people won’t admit he’s world class. As a RW I’d only have Messi and Salah ahead of him, both of whom play predominantly through the middle.

 

[Peyroteo]

Impressive how Ronaldo changed from being a complete big game choker to a the personification of human winning mentality once he played with the right team mates.

God, do I hate this rating of individuals based on team success in short knockout tournaments highly dependent on luck.

You can't put it down to luck when there's such a huge sample size to pick from. When Messi had the best teammates any star has ever had did he win that much too?

 

[KennyBurner]

Find it absolutely mental people won’t admit he’s world class. As a RW I’d only have Messi and Salah ahead of him, both of whom play predominantly through the middle.

But he isn't worldclass though?!?!?! That's just delusional.

Also can we not compare Mbappe to Messi, its just plain disrespectful.

 

[Zehner]

Find it absolutely mental people won’t admit he’s world class. As a RW I’d only have Messi and Salah ahead of him, both of whom play predominantly through the middle.

Not the biggest fan of him but he obviously is worldclass (his goal record alone proves it) and I have a hard time understanding how anyone can deny that. Also the fact that he reached that level at such a young age is extremely impressive. But the discussion was more about his talent, not about how good he is at the very moment. There have been more talented players than him who never reached his level, IMO, and also some that clearly dwarfed his current self, albeit not when U20. Yet, I simply don't think he's a R9 or Messi level prodigy. Let's talk about his skill set and not about how well he uzilizes it - because the former is potential and the latter maturity IMO.

You can't put it down to luck when there's such a huge sample size to pick from. When Messi had the best teammates any star has ever had did he win that much too?

I already made clear that I don't want to discuss this topic with you anymore in the thread this debate would belong in, so just leave it be. You aren't doing yourself a favour.

 

[Peyroteo]

I already made clear that I don't want to discuss this topic with you anymore in the thread this debate would belong in, so just leave it be. You aren't doing yourself a favour, man.

If you don't want to discuss it, that's fine. Just don't.

I rarely check the usernames before replying so I won't just stop replying to you though.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Is anyone denying he's world class? Anyone that is doing that is clearly blind.

I thought the discussion is about his 'potential' talent - and that's always so hard to gauge because there are so many factors.

What I will say though is that anyone also comparing him in any way in terms of talent (other than similarity of style of play) to the original Ronaldo is also clearly blind. Winning World Cup '98 (aged 22), with the World Cup he had prior to the final, would likely have cemented that status.

It's quite clear the original Ronaldo had an insane amount of talent, far more than Mbappe could even dream of. Perhaps only Messi of all the players I've seen had that much talent at that age.

But as far as potential/the future, who knows? It's also possible that Mbappe would end up being better thought of than Ronaldo. It's far more likely, though, that he won't as that's already an insane level to reach (nevermind the Messi bracket).

 

[izec]

But he isn't worldclass though?!?!?! That's just delusional.

Also can we not compare Mbappe to Messi, its just plain disrespectful.

Depends on your definition. I assume only Messi and CR7 are worldclass, then Mbappe isnt if that is your standard.

 

[Cassidy]

Depends on your definition. I assume only Messi and CR7 are worldclass, then Mbappe isnt if that is your standard.

Not many world class players in the history of the sport then. None have ever played for United in our generation except CR7?

 

[izec]

Not many world class players in the history of the sport then. None have ever played for United in our generation except CR7?

Not my opinion, just going by the poster there. We had plenty of world class players at some point, in goal, defense, midfield and strikers. But some people have a narrow definition of what constitutes world class.

 

[SCP]

And Portugal were really poor, they struggled against pretty much every team despite the fact they were on the "easier" side of the draw.

Against Wales no, and the Poland match was 50/50. He was perhaps the third best player overall, with Pepe and Nani for me being the best of the lot. But the thread is about Mbappé, its meaningless to compare players from different eras, even less trying to compare the performances on International Tournaments.

While Mbappé is and was impressive he never had to play with players like Hugo Almeida, Postiga, Veloso or Meireles like Ronaldo had particularly between 2010 until 2016, now the things are changing a bit, but Mbappé will always have better numbers playing for France than Ronaldo with Portugal.

France can play different styles of football if they want against stronger opponents, Portugal can't have that luxury, we always will be a counterattacking team against top teams, not that these days under Santos we are doing that very well but that's another subject.

I certainly don't dismiss Mbappé because he plays in France, I remember well that Weah only won a Ballon D'or when he moved to AC Milan while he was more impressive for PSG, and Mbappé already scored against all top club teams or top NT's he faced.

One day when I have time I will dismiss point by point the notion that Ronaldo had no talent when he was younger and everything was developed on the gym. But that is another matter who doesn't belong here.