Kylian Mbappe | PSG

Classical Mechanic said:
None were/are as good as Messi. None of them have the wide range of attributes and consistency he has had. Cristiano Ronaldo matched the consistency but wasn't as talented or as good a as creative player.

Mbappe is a much more linear player and would lose a lot from his game if he lost a yard or two.
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So being the best is only about talent? We're not talking about the most talented player but the best overall player. CR7 is far less talented than Messi, but I'm amazed by the fact that nobody mentions the fact that when Ronaldo strives under pressure (and Mbappé seems to have the same spirit even if he'll have to confirm it for 10 years), Messi often disapear. For god sake since the end of Barça's golden age in 2011, he won 1 CL (greatly helped by Suarez at his peak and Neymar who was the best scorer) and that's pretty much it, including a tremendous amount of disapointing games when it really mattered, with Barcelona and especially Argentina. You can't talk about who's best without taking that into consideration.

Mbappé is crazy fast, it's one of his talent, you can't simply dismiss him because he uses the speed he has speed. Messi has a talent for starting on the wing, dribbling to the center of the pitch and shooting with his left foot, he scored gazillions of goals this exact same way, wouldn't he lose a lot if he wasn't able to do that? They're different players, they have different qualities and only the future will tell us what impact Mbappe has in the game.
 
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Oly Francis said:
So being the best is only about talent? We're not talking about the most talented player but the best overall player. CR7 is far less talented than Messi, but I'm amazed by the fact that nobody mentions the fact that when Ronaldo strives under pressure (and Mbappé seems to have the same spirit even if he'll have to confirm it for 10 years), Messi often disapear. For god sake since the end of Barça's golden age in 2011, he won 1 CL (greatly helped by Suarez at his peak and Neymar who was the best scorer) and that's pretty much it, including a tremendous amount of disapointing games when it really mattered. You can't talk about who's best without taking that into consideration.

Mbappé is crazy fast, it's one of his talent, you can't simply dismiss him because he uses the speed he has speed. Messi has a talent for starting on the wing, dribbling to the center of the pitch and shooting with his left foot, he scored gazillions of goals this exact same way, wouldn't he lose a lot if he wasn't able to do that? They're different players, they have different qualities and only the future will tell us what impact Mbappe has in the game.
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Messi has more talent than any other player and more consistency than any other player, with maybe only CR7 to compare on that count.

Mbappe just doesn't have the talent to rival Messi, even if he can match the consistency he won't be regarded like Messi is by his fellow pros, they know Messi is different because of all his technical qualities.

I'm not dismissing Mbappe's speed but physical attributes like are likely to decline, sometimes to a great degree if a player gets injuries associated with explosive play.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Messi has more talent than any other player and more consistency than any other player, with maybe only CR7 to compare on that count.

Mbappe just doesn't have the talent to rival Messi, even if he can match the consistency he won't be regarded like Messi is by his fellow pros, they know Messi is different because of all his technical qualities.

I'm not dismissing Mbappe's speed but physical attributes like are likely to decline, sometimes to a great degree if a player gets injuries associated with explosive play.
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Consistency in Liga yeah. That's just not enough for me. I like Messi far more than Ronaldo because he's so much more talented but you can't talk about consistency when you regularely choke with your national team and fail to pick your team up when needed in UCL. I don't really care if pros don't regard Mbappé the way the regard Messi, it's irrelevant, i care about the important goals he'll score (or not) when it'll matter, i care about consistency. You can't invent an assist the way Mbappé did to Giroud against Belgium without a tremendous amount of talent (or luck, and it wasn't luck).
 
Oly Francis said:
Consistency in Liga yeah. That's just not enough for me. I like Messi far more than Ronaldo because he's so much more talented but you can't talk about consistency when you regularely choke with your national team and fail to pick your team up when needed in UCL. I don't really care if pros don't regard Mbappé the way the regard Messi, it's irrelevant, i care about the important goals he'll score (or not) when it'll matter, i care about consistency. You can't invent an assist the way Mbappé did to Giroud against Belgium without a tremendous amount of talent (or luck, and it wasn't luck).
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International football is not a defining measure for me. Only a small number of nations have a realistic chance of winning those competitions and the likes of Germany, France and Brazil are best placed to do so. Granted that Argentina as a large nation with a strong football culture are well placed too but they’ve always had a flawed squad in Messi’s era. That said, he’s reached something like 4 major tournament finals?, even if the Copa is weaker than the Euros.

Regardless, club football is much more meritocratic and the level is higher than international football at the elite end of the Champions League. A player can move clubs to suit his ability and isn’t cursed or blessed by the time and place he was born.
 
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Arbitrium said:
You’re talking to someone who first got into Ronaldo when he was at PSV. I know all about him, what he’s capable of and in my opinion it wasn’t quite as good as Messi age 21-23. He was more a number 9 than anything else, I know because I watched full games involving him and not his YouTube highlights like you clearly have based on your comments here. You’ll find videos of every attacker dropping deep and passing the ball in midfield but for most of every game he played in, Ronaldo was the furthest man forward.
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Not before him you won't. It's part of the game now but back then it wasn't, he changed the way strikers play the game.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
International football is not a defining measure for me. Only a small number of nations have a realistic chance of winning those competitions and the likes of Germany, France and Brazil are best placed to do so. Granted that Argentina as a large nation with a strong football culture are well placed too but they’ve always had a flawed squad in Messi’s era. That said, he’s reached something like 4 major tournament finals?, even if the Copa is weaker than the Euros.

Regardless, club football is much more meritocratic and the level is higher than international football at the elite end of the Champions League. A player can move clubs to suit his ability and isn’t cursed or blessed by the time and place he was born.
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You do realize that Barcelona only played 1 CL final since 2011 right? Is he also curse by the fact that he's in Barcelona?
 
Classical Mechanic said:
He’s won it four times for God’s sake.
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Weren't you the one talking about consistency?

So if i sum your reasoning up, he chokes with argentina but it's not his fault because the team is flawed (that's your opinion, not mine, espcially in 2014), and he is consistent in club football but to him consistency applies to what he did 7 years ago and it doesn't really matter if he only played 1 final since. Ok. Double standards?

I'm not saying he isn't great, he's amazing, but a part of being one of the goats is leadership and mental abilities and it's just not there for Messi. You can't show that in highlights but it has a tremendous importance.
 
11101 said:
Not before him you won't. It's part of the game now but back then it wasn't, he changed the way strikers play the game.
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Arbitrium said:
You’re talking to someone who first got into Ronaldo when he was at PSV. I know all about him, what he’s capable of and in my opinion it wasn’t quite as good as Messi age 21-23. He was more a number 9 than anything else, I know because I watched full games involving him and not his YouTube highlights like you clearly have based on your comments here. You’ll find videos of every attacker dropping deep and passing the ball in midfield but for most of every game he played in, Ronaldo was the furthest man forward.
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Isn’t Messi the furthest forward too?
 
Oly Francis said:
Weren't you the one talking about consistency?

So if i sum your reasoning up, he chokes with argentina but it's not his fault because the team is flawed (that's your opinion, not mine, espcially in 2014), and he is consistent in club football but to him consistency applies to what he did 7 years ago and it doesn't really matter if he only played 1 final since. Ok. Double standards?

I'm not saying he isn't great, he's amazing, but a part of being one of the goats is leadership and mental abilities and it's just not there for Messi. You can't show that in highlights but it has a tremendous importance.
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His record with Argentina isn’t bad though. It’s pretty good. Football is a team game so who your teammates are and what they contribute is important of course.

His record in the Champions League is fantastic by all accounts.

The consensus is that he’s the greatest. Countless professional acknowledge that he operates at a unique level. That doesn’t mean he’ll win every tournament every year by himself.
 
Arbitrium said:
You’re talking to someone who first got into Ronaldo when he was at PSV. I know all about him, what he’s capable of and in my opinion it wasn’t quite as good as Messi age 21-23. He was more a number 9 than anything else, I know because I watched full games involving him and not his YouTube highlights like you clearly have based on your comments here. You’ll find videos of every attacker dropping deep and passing the ball in midfield but for most of every game he played in, Ronaldo was the furthest man forward.
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I very much doubt you did.

You were basically selling Ronaldo like Inzaghi while making it sound like young Messi was doing Xavi's job from the wing.
 
Arbitrium said:
You’re talking to someone who first got into Ronaldo when he was at PSV. I know all about him, what he’s capable of and in my opinion it wasn’t quite as good as Messi age 21-23. He was more a number 9 than anything else, I know because I watched full games involving him and not his YouTube highlights like you clearly have based on your comments here. You’ll find videos of every attacker dropping deep and passing the ball in midfield but for most of every game he played in, Ronaldo was the furthest man forward.
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You're really a pundit :lol:
 
Prometheus said:
I very much doubt you did.

You were basically selling Ronaldo like Inzaghi while making it sound like young Messi was doing Xavi's job from the wing.
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What are you talking about here? That’s next level post interpretation there.

I’ve seen every player you’ve mentioned here live, several times. I was at Old Trafford when Ronaldo got applauded off for a hattrick and stood up as soon as his number went up. I’m as big a fan of his as they come, and he will always be my second favourite player ever to have watched but you’re just wrong with what you’re trying to say I’m saying here.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
International football is not a defining measure for me. Only a small number of nations have a realistic chance of winning those competitions and the likes of Germany, France and Brazil are best placed to do so. Granted that Argentina as a large nation with a strong football culture are well placed too but they’ve always had a flawed squad in Messi’s era. That said, he’s reached something like 4 major tournament finals?, even if the Copa is weaker than the Euros.

Regardless, club football is much more meritocratic and the level is higher than international football at the elite end of the Champions League. A player can move clubs to suit his ability and isn’t cursed or blessed by the time and place he was born.
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Well, that's convenient to argue for Messi to disregard something that absolutely every football fan/professional players care about. But your last paragraph is exactly why you're wrong to not take it into consideration, because the truly great players find ways to turn circumstances that aren't necessarily in their favor, with the country/team they are inheriting internationally, and manage to beat expectations and make something happen. I'm not even blaming Messi for not winning anything internationally, but for them to always go missing in the knockout games when they dominate the league is absolutely a stain on their legacy, which is a blimp in the overall body of work, but it's not something I'd forget when you want to look at GOAT debates.

As far as Mbappe is concerned (because we're really derailing this thread), you can tell me that it's very likely Mbappe will not succeed to the levels of all these legends, I can understand that. However, to say the kid doesn't have the talent to do it, and it's mostly physical gifts that help him is really an ignorant opinion based on knowing very little of the player. It disregards things about his game that are completely overlooked. Now, he's scored a lot of goals already at his age, but my favorite of all his goals is still the one against Juventus when he was with Monaco. You look at that goal, and that's not a normal 18 year old player that's just very fast and has some skills, that's an expert poacher goal against a defense that hadn't seen a goal in the competition for over 1200 minutes and were all eyes on him to stop him from getting it all game, and they still couldn't do a thing about it.

Goals like that didn't take speed, just intelligence and timing, which will last beyond your physical gifts. What I think most people who knock Mbappe on is that he doesn't dribble like Messi, he doesn't pass the eye test of silky moves where the ball is glued to his feet, so therefore he won't be as great.

For every Messi, there's a Hatem Ben Arfa, Emre Mor, Denilson, etc. Mbappe has all the tools (including the mentality) to become not just as great but even greater than these two legends, the likelihood is low but anyone who is already proclaiming that he's short on the tools to make it happen is wrong at the moment, because talent is such a small part of the equation and Mbappe has all the talent in the world.

Edit: Oh, and Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to everyone here.
 
Oly Francis said:
Consistency in Liga yeah. That's just not enough for me. I like Messi far more than Ronaldo because he's so much more talented but you can't talk about consistency when you regularely choke with your national team and fail to pick your team up when needed in UCL. I don't really care if pros don't regard Mbappé the way the regard Messi, it's irrelevant, i care about the important goals he'll score (or not) when it'll matter, i care about consistency. You can't invent an assist the way Mbappé did to Giroud against Belgium without a tremendous amount of talent (or luck, and it wasn't luck).
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Mbappe had 1 good game at the wc vs argentina. That is all.
 
Prometheus said:
I very much doubt you did.

You were basically selling Ronaldo like Inzaghi while making it sound like young Messi was doing Xavi's job from the wing.
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Ecstatic said:
You're really a pundit :lol:
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Arbitrium said:
What are you talking about here? That’s next level post interpretation there.

I’ve seen every player you’ve mentioned here live, several times. I was at Old Trafford when Ronaldo got applauded off for a hattrick and stood up as soon as his number went up. I’m as big a fan of his as they come, and he will always be my second favourite player ever to have watched but you’re just wrong with what you’re trying to say I’m saying here.
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This is the Mbappe thread...
 
mshnsh said:
Mbappe had 1 good game at the wc vs argentina. That is all.
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1 good game? That's what you call it? A good game ^^ Come one, 2 goals and a PK in a WC knockout game, it's not a "good game", it's exceptionnal even if argentina was pretty weak.

He was also good against Belgium, scored against Croatia in the final...

And even if it was true, it's still one good game more than Messi in knockout stages...

Then again though, i've never said that Mbappé was better than prime Messi, that would be absurd, i've just said that Messi's legacy will always be stained by his total inhability to lead Argentina to a title.
 
Sayros said:
Well, that's convenient to argue for Messi to disregard something that absolutely every football fan/professional players care about. But your last paragraph is exactly why you're wrong to not take it into consideration, because the truly great players find ways to turn circumstances that aren't necessarily in their favor, with the country/team they are inheriting internationally, and manage to beat expectations and make something happen. I'm not even blaming Messi for not winning anything internationally, but for them to always go missing in the knockout games when they dominate the league is absolutely a stain on their legacy, which is a blimp in the overall body of work, but it's not something I'd forget when you want to look at GOAT debates.

As far as Mbappe is concerned (because we're really derailing this thread), you can tell me that it's very likely Mbappe will not succeed to the levels of all these legends, I can understand that. However, to say the kid doesn't have the talent to do it, and it's mostly physical gifts that help him is really an ignorant opinion based on knowing very little of the player. It disregards things about his game that are completely overlooked. Now, he's scored a lot of goals already at his age, but my favorite of all his goals is still the one against Juventus when he was with Monaco. You look at that goal, and that's not a normal 18 year old player that's just very fast and has some skills, that's an expert poacher goal against a defense that hadn't seen a goal in the competition for over 1200 minutes and were all eyes on him to stop him from getting it all game, and they still couldn't do a thing about it.

Goals like that didn't take speed, just intelligence and timing, which will last beyond your physical gifts. What I think most people who knock Mbappe on is that he doesn't dribble like Messi, he doesn't pass the eye test of silky moves where the ball is glued to his feet, so therefore he won't be as great.

For every Messi, there's a Hatem Ben Arfa, Emre Mor, Denilson, etc. Mbappe has all the tools (including the mentality) to become not just as great but even greater than these two legends, the likelihood is low but anyone who is already proclaiming that he's short on the tools to make it happen is wrong at the moment, because talent is such a small part of the equation and Mbappe has all the talent in the world.

Edit: Oh, and Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to everyone here.
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Your first point leaves you in a bit of a logical conundrum regarding Mbappe. The French players went into this World Cup as the most privileged due to them having the best squad of any nation. They left at home a back 4 better than Argentina could put in their first XI, for example. Mbappe had a good World Cup, not a great one, so how are we to elevate him in light of his privileges?

Secondly, you disregarded my deliberate use of the word 'defining' when making that point.

Yes, my view that international football is misleading when evaluating players, due to the brevity of the competition and (mostly) the inherent unfairness regarding how good your team mates are (it is a team sport), is not necessarily a majority view. Nonetheless, I'd like to hear a logical evidence based argument how this is not the case? I'm not saying that club football is fair, you only have to look at PSG to see how that is not the case. Just that it is fairer and a larger scale sample than international football. I'd also argue that seeing a Maradona-esque performance at a World Cup (he still played for a major football nation don't forget) is much less likely in the modern day, due to how well organised teams generally are tactiaclly across the board these days.

Again, I wasn't discounting his physical gifts, although I think its natural to value technical qualities higher, intelligence and skill are more admired in football. My other sub-point on the matter was that plenty of players lose a yard naturally by their mid-twenties naturally, whilst some, like Michael Owen and Luis Ronaldo, lose their explosiveness altogether through an injury. Point being, betting on a player that relies on physical qualities to set them apart (more than Messi does, for example) to sustain an amazing career is a risk.

And again, I wasn't saying that Mbappe is not a Ballon D'Or level player (he is), he could go on to have a career similar to CR7 (I wouldn't bet on it though) but Messi is viewed by the majority consensus as a level above that. Trying to compare any player to Messi is foolhardy, in my opinion, he's the best technical player ever seen and he has unreal end product and consistency to match that. Moreover, even CR7's truly incredible achievements in game still leave him in Messi's shadow as a player, by the consensus opinion.
 
There is a little bit of revisionism here. People were very critical of the back four selected, only close followers understood or new why Lucas and Pavard started for France. In the case of Pavard we also need to remember that he is a CB, we are not talking about Dani Alves.
France didn't had the best squad of all nations(Spain, Germany or Brazil were individually stronger), like Croatia they were the two nations that played like teams and where the collective was stronger than its parts.
 
Mbappe has great decision making for his age. This is the part of the game you normally improve the most as you get older. I think he’s probably closer to his ceiling now than say C Ronaldo was at the same age. I’ve no doubt he’s going to be a great player, maybe the worlds best, but I don’t think he will ever achieve what Ronaldo has. I’m certain he won’t ever reach Messi level. You could argue no one in the last 100 years is as talented as Messi. The chance of another player of that level coming along so soon are pretty low. We’d be incredibly lucky if it did happen!
 
11101 said:
How so?
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Ronaldo at barca wasn't particularly involved in play deeper on the pitch. He stayed high in the front three as an out and out striker. There were plenty of games he was actually quite anonymous because he didn't see enough of the ball.

He was more involved at Inter for those 18 months, where he partnered with zamorano. But it is fiction to argue that he's the first centre forward to drop deep and get involved in play making. There's been loads through the ages and whilst few, if any have done it better there was nothing groundbreaking about his role per se.

I'd compare Ronaldo at inter to suarez at Liverpool, in terms of roaming and getting involved in play. And he had Sturridge as foil the same way Ronaldo had zamorano.

What Messi brought to the role that I've only seen Totti do before him was that there was no forward taking up places ahead of him when he dropped deep and that, despite this gap, he spent more time dropping deep than staying high and scored more goals breaking through the second line than getting in behind the defence.
 
JPRouve said:
There is a little bit of revisionism here. People were very critical of the back four selected, only close followers understood or new why Lucas and Pavard started for France. In the case of Pavard we also need to remember that he is a CB, we are not talking about Dani Alves.
France didn't had the best squad of all nations(Spain, Germany or Brazil were individually stronger), like Croatia they were the two nations that played like teams and where the collective was stronger than its parts.
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There is no revisionism. On this website plenty of posters lauded the French squad as the best long before the World Cup. An XI that they left at home was posted and went round forums and twitter as being better than the England first XI and many other nation's first XI.

I'll agree that Brazil, Germany and Spain had great squads too (although the latter two were relying on old names past their best) but no side was more privileged than France in squad strength. To the point, there were few rivals for squad quality.
 
B20 said:
Ronaldo at barca wasn't particularly involved in play deeper on the pitch. He stayed high in the front three as an out and out striker. There were plenty of games he was actually quite anonymous because he didn't see enough of the ball.

He was more involved at Inter for those 18 months, where he partnered with zamorano. But it is fiction to argue that he's the first centre forward to drop deep and get involved in play making. There's been loads through the ages and whilst few, if any have done it better there was nothing groundbreaking about his role per se.

I'd compare Ronaldo at inter to suarez at Liverpool, in terms of roaming and getting involved in play. And he had Sturridge as foil the same way Ronaldo had zamorano.

What Messi brought to the role that I've only seen Totti do before him was that there was no forward taking up places ahead of him when he dropped deep and that, despite this gap, he spent more time dropping deep than staying high and scored more goals breaking through the second line than getting in behind the defence.
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He, together with Romario and George Weah, reinvented the centre-forward position. They were the first to drop from the penalty box to pick up the ball in midfield, switch to the flanks, attract and disorientate the central defenders with their runs, their accelerations, their dribbling.
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Thierry Henry said that. He knows more about centre forward play than either of us.

Lots of players have talked about how he brought new elements to the game and took the requirements of the position up a notch. It wasnt enough to be a pure finisher any more.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
There is no revisionism. On this website plenty of posters lauded the French squad as the best long before the World Cup. An XI that they left at home was posted and went round forums and twitter as being better than the England first XI and many other nation's first XI.

I'll agree that Brazil, Germany and Spain had great squads too (although the latter two were relying on old names past their best) but no side was more privileged than France in squad strength. To the point, there were few rivals for squad quality.
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France didn't bring the best individuals, it was the best team possible. The revisionism is to claim that players that a lot of people didn't rate or knew were the best squad, Deschamps was lambasted by foreigners because his team selection, because he left plenty of good players out for seemingly lesser players. So yes there is a lot of revisionism.

As for Mbappé he was part of a team, he brought what he was supposed to bring in a team that was far from a dream team even with hindsight. He hasn't been carried it and it shouldn't be insinuated.
 
11101 said:
Thierry Henry said that. He knows more about centre forward play than either of us.

Lots of players have talked about how he brought new elements to the game and took the requirements of the position up a notch. It wasnt enough to be a pure finisher any more.
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I'll just interject and say he didn't bring new rather defining to the role because he was so consistent and effective when carrying the ball i.e. his dribbling was a sure thing to such an extent that opposing teams accommodated and catered to it first and foremost thus forgoing the usual tactical shape and schematic that could be maintained against lesser forwards trying to do the same thing.

When Ronaldo got the ball, teams dropped back and panicked, when other forwards got the ball deep, defenders could plan and send midfielders forward to meet the threat and sweep in behind them, or have one CB go and the other cover. None of that was applicable to Ronaldo.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Your first point leaves you in a bit of a logical conundrum regarding Mbappe. The French players went into this World Cup as the most privileged due to them having the best squad of any nation. They left at home a back 4 better than Argentina could put in their first XI, for example. Mbappe had a good World Cup, not a great one, so how are we to elevate him in light of his privileges?

Secondly, you disregarded my deliberate use of the word 'defining' when making that point.

Yes, my view that international football is misleading when evaluating players, due to the brevity of the competition and (mostly) the inherent unfairness regarding how good your team mates are (it is a team sport), is not necessarily a majority view. Nonetheless, I'd like to hear a logical evidence based argument how this is not the case? I'm not saying that club football is fair, you only have to look at PSG to see how that is not the case. Just that it is fairer and a larger scale sample than international football. I'd also argue that seeing a Maradona-esque performance at a World Cup (he still played for a major football nation don't forget) is much less likely in the modern day, due to how well organised teams generally are tactiaclly across the board these days.

Again, I wasn't discounting his physical gifts, although I think its natural to value technical qualities higher, intelligence and skill are more admired in football. My other sub-point on the matter was that plenty of players lose a yard naturally by their mid-twenties naturally, whilst some, like Michael Owen and Luis Ronaldo, lose their explosiveness altogether through an injury. Point being, betting on a player that relies on physical qualities to set them apart (more than Messi does, for example) to sustain an amazing career is a risk.

And again, I wasn't saying that Mbappe is not a Ballon D'Or level player (he is), he could go on to have a career similar to CR7 (I wouldn't bet on it though) but Messi is viewed by the majority consensus as a level above that. Trying to compare any player to Messi is foolhardy, in my opinion, he's the best technical player ever seen and he has unreal end product and consistency to match that. Moreover, even CR7's truly incredible achievements in game still leave him in Messi's shadow as a player, by the consensus opinion.
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Where is this consensus opinion? I know plenty of people who would put Ronaldo ahead of Messi in terms of consistency and performance. I myself value Ronaldo's ability to perform in high pressure situation as a much greater tool than Messi's ability to dribble past players on will. Hence Ronaldo's achievements that have been earned by performing in 2 very different leagues and his unreal consistency makes him the GOAT for me and plenty more.
 
JPRouve said:
France didn't bring the best individuals, it was the best team possible. The revisionism is to claim that players that a lot of people didn't rate or knew were the best squad, Deschamps was lambasted by foreigners because his team selection, because he left plenty of good players out for seemingly lesser players. So yes there is a lot of revisionism.

As for Mbappé he was part of a team, he brought what he was supposed to bring in a team that was far from a dream team even with hindsight. He hasn't been carried it and it shouldn't be insinuated.
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Deschamp was criticised for his lack of tactical nous possibly undermining the talent in the squad, even though France had come so close to winning the last Euros. Few with any sense would have denied the quality of a French side with so many world class players.

I never insinuated the Mbappe was 'carried' but having quality throughout the side is an undeniable advantage. He certainly didn't win the cup for France so it was a team effort.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
There is no revisionism. On this website plenty of posters lauded the French squad as the best long before the World Cup. An XI that they left at home was posted and went round forums and twitter as being better than the England first XI and many other nation's first XI.

I'll agree that Brazil, Germany and Spain had great squads too (although the latter two were relying on old names past their best) but no side was more privileged than France in squad strength. To the point, there were few rivals for squad quality.
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France is a strange football country. I think the consensus in France before the world cup was to consider Germany, Brazil and Spain as favorites teams.

Before the World Cup, Deschamps was mainly viewed as somebody who was looking for a starting 11.

I'd even say that French players are better 'rated' abroad than in France.
 
Pyro19 said:
Where is this consensus opinion? I know plenty of people who would put Ronaldo ahead of Messi in terms of consistency and performance. I myself value Ronaldo's ability to perform in high pressure situation as a much greater tool than Messi's ability to dribble past players on will. Hence Ronaldo's achievements that have been earned by performing in 2 very different leagues and his unreal consistency makes him the GOAT for me and plenty more.
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Let it go, he doesn't want to hear it, mental ability doesn't count, it's only about talent with the ball, it doesn't matter that Messi chokes systematically when it matters with Argentina, he was cursed for playing with higuain, Aguero, Dybala, Mascherano, Di Maria... he's consistent even if he regularly disapears in CL when his team is in trouble and if he only played 1 final for the past 7 seasons, there's a consensus that he is the best player ever when (plot twist), there's not, except for random internet polls involving people that have no idea of who Pele or Maradona are.

Mental abilities, leadership matter A LOT in top level football, and in this aspect, Messi is miles behind Ronaldo. A more talented player, there's not a single doubt about that but a better player overall, it's far from beeing a clear cut statement.
 
Oly Francis said:
Let it go, he doesn't want to hear it, mental ability doesn't count, it's only about talent with the ball, it doesn't matter that Messi chokes systematically when it matters with Argentina, he was cursed for playing with higuain, Aguero, Dybala, Mascherano, Di Maria... he's consistent even if he regularly disapears in CL when his team is in trouble and if he only played 1 final for the past 7 seasons, there's a consensus that he is the best player ever when (plot twist), there's not, except for random internet polls involving people that have no idea of who Pele or Maradona are.

Mental abilities, leadership matter A LOT in top level football, and in this aspect, Messi is miles behind Ronaldo. A more talented player, there's not a single doubt about that but a better player overall, it's far from beeing a clear cut statement.
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Impressive how Ronaldo changed from being a complete big game choker to a the personification of human winning mentality once he played with the right team mates.

God, do I hate this rating of individuals based on team success in short knockout tournaments highly dependent on luck.
 
Zehner said:
Impressive how Ronaldo changed from being a complete big game choker to a the personification of human winning mentality once he played with the right team mates.

God, do I hate this rating of individuals based on team success in short knockout tournaments highly dependent on luck.
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Particularly when Argentina can't develop a single decent fullback, CM, DM or CB. Also Higuain and Aguero have been generally subpar for Argentina.
 
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