The thing Mbappe has that I haven't seen since fat ronaldo is the combination of world class technique and finishing with a physique that is perhaps unmatched by any of his peers. There is not a player around with that kind of pace and build, certainly none with his ability on top. Lets him do things that no one else around are able to.
Kylian Mbappe | PSG
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Ermm I didn’t reduce him to a sprint. I said this all started from a sprint. He didn’t score yet, it wasn’t incredible and why are you counted the penalty as an assist? Didn’t you get fantasy league points or something?
Rooney never had the kind of talent messi had. And c.ronaldo is a poor comparison since he became way better than his talent suggested he ought to have been.
If you remember it being so, it was just british hype. Rooney was a great talent, but he was not as gifted as Messi was nor as gifted as mbappe is now.
People getting carried away over a talented young footballer. Just another day on the caf.
Insanely exciting talent, he's only 19, which is crazy.
Ronaldo and Messi have a few ballons left in em, but after that he's the top contender. Feck off Neymar.
edit: beh @Pogue Mahone 's post makes me feel like a kneejerk hype train moron
Ronaldo and Messi have a few ballons left in em, but after that he's the top contender. Feck off Neymar.
edit: beh @Pogue Mahone 's post makes me feel like a kneejerk hype train moron
You confuse what people thought with what was the case. Rooney was perceived as a tremendous talent because of his age and maturity. People had wrong expectations about the curve of his development.
Personally, I found Messi more talented than Rooney. Messi at 18 was MOM in a classic CL game between Barca and Chelsea when Ronaldinho, Eto'o, Lampard and Drogba were at their best.
Mbappe is clearly more productive tnan Rooney, looks a better goalscorer.
Gifted? He doesn’t possess Messi like talent. Only probably people like the English media didn’t get Ronaldo’s talent as doing step overs and abit of a show pony was considered a joke over here. If they had bothered to look at his technically abilities they would have spotted he was as gifted as Rooney however Rooney was built like a mature 28 year old and played like one. Abit like Mbappe now.. he’s only a step ahead of some of his peers because of that same Rooney factor, which is what people are failing to realise.
This sentence means nothing, it's a feeling more than anything and it's also based on the erroneous assumption that players develop linearly. Rooney had a physical advantage at youth level that allowed him to reach his potential sooner but he didn't had as much potential as Messi and Ronaldo, the intangibles are what separate them and these intangibles were already there, it's just that only insiders were in a position to evaluate them. Ronaldo has a frame that allowed him to equal and then surpass Rooney's physical abilities, Messi needed to develop physically too but both were better technically and Ronaldo was a lot more coachable.
And to make it clear, I'm using hindsight which is exactly what should be done here, because the actual potential matches your actual development.
Can't believe people still believe this. Especially given how much Messi and Ronaldo have gone on to achieve, 2 of the best players to ever play the game amongst all generations. IMO it was obvious back then he wasn't as talented anyway but thats just my view.
Mbappe looks a real talent mind you, be interesting to see how he develops.
Ronaldo as a youngster looked a bit simple really. Speedy winger who basically took his man on and saw what he could do from there. What he is best at today - composure, decisionmaking, movement, vision - were not very present as a youngster.
Rooney and Messi had more of that.
It was all there. Just needed to mature. But I suppose this is why everyone can’t claim to identify talent.
A lot of people just see what’s in there face. Which makes me go back to why Mbappe gets overrated on here. It’s then too easy to say when for instance Dembele becomes the best player in the world that he’s come on leaps and bounds. Or if Mbappe doesn’t go on to become great that he wasn’t really that technically gifted.
Look at the Rooney comments. No people or posting like Rooney was never destined to be as good as Ronaldo and Messi.
The thing about Mbappé is that he is at the same time overrated and underrated. The projections are over the top, he is currently far from Messi and the Ronaldos but he is also currently a very good player despite the fact that he is only 19 years old. If his current level was his average level for the next 10 years it would have been a pretty good career but he could also play at a lower level or a superior one.
The player Rooney should have become is basically a less tricky but physically stronger version of Luis Suarez. I think it's fair to say a lot of the most promising parts of his game as a youngster were coached out of him.
Mbappe v Argentina was 20 years to the day of Owen v Argentina - playing style wise Mbappe also looks pretty similar to Owen at the same age, and that should provide a clear note of caution for people going overboard on his ability.
Mbappe is very reliant on his pace, and that can be problematic in being consistent over a long career, especially considering he has been fortunate with injuries so far and so we've no idea how they could impact his future development or not. In general, he doesn't look like he has enough dimensions, or potential dimensions to his game to reach CR7, Messi or even R9 levels of greatness; peaking at Rooney or Henry level of ability and consistency seems a fair call.
It would still be great for Utd if they could get him, of course.
Mbappe is very reliant on his pace, and that can be problematic in being consistent over a long career, especially considering he has been fortunate with injuries so far and so we've no idea how they could impact his future development or not. In general, he doesn't look like he has enough dimensions, or potential dimensions to his game to reach CR7, Messi or even R9 levels of greatness; peaking at Rooney or Henry level of ability and consistency seems a fair call.
It would still be great for Utd if they could get him, of course.
It’s not fair to say at all. At best, it’s pure speculation. At worst, a fairly lame attempt at a WUM.
Fair arguement. Even though he was just as tricky. But at the end of the day there is nothing wrong with that. He still had as good as if not better personal career than Suárez(I’m talking at their peak), when it’s all done for Suárez not many will rate him better than Rooney. Back to Mbappe there is nothing wrong with him levelling off to be another David Trezeguet, it can easily happen for him with his level of finishing. It’s just not a given that he’s Ronaldo; Messi levels. It took us 10-15 years to get us a player like them after Maradona.
Yeah, it's near impossible to tell how good a young player will be as there are lot of factors. Some players are physically developed earlier so shows promise very early and then don't develop much, some players develop bit late.
Also limiting player's potential, like player x at best can be only as good as Y is such a nonsense.
Every player have different development curve, some develop early, some late. We have so many examples right infront of us.
Didn't mention an assist anywhere..
I was a kid back then. I still remember how Ronaldo, Messi and Rooney was the trio that will conquer the world football. During his early years, Rooney was an exciting footballer in his own right.
Remember that this was the period when Ronaldo and Messi weren't goalscoring machines.
While Ronaldo was considered as the skillful wonderkid, Messi as the dribbling genius, Rooney was the wonderkid who possess exceptional pace, grit and hunger.
Back then, we all saw them as the players to win Ballon D'Or.
He got the potential, but his peak isn't as high both Messi and Ronaldo then people tend to realize that soon.
My point is, Rooney's perception of potential as a teenager was as high as both of them. I don't think I'm wrong at all.
Remember that this was the period when Ronaldo and Messi weren't goalscoring machines.
While Ronaldo was considered as the skillful wonderkid, Messi as the dribbling genius, Rooney was the wonderkid who possess exceptional pace, grit and hunger.
Back then, we all saw them as the players to win Ballon D'Or.
He got the potential, but his peak isn't as high both Messi and Ronaldo then people tend to realize that soon.
My point is, Rooney's perception of potential as a teenager was as high as both of them. I don't think I'm wrong at all.
People believe it because it is true. Rooney, Ronaldo Messi where all in the same talent bucket and Rooney was outperforming Ronaldo for the beginning few years. The other two went on to become two of the best of this generation(all time?) but that doesn't mean a young Rooney wasn't up there.
That's because you see wums everywhere.
The same thing happened with Gerrard. Both him and Rooney had the engine, stamina, directness and tenacious mentality to involve themselves in play to an exceptional extent. Both ended up as a players who chose their runs and positions more carefully. Their managers I am sure felt it was for the better and they might be right.
I think when you look at equivalent players like nedved and Suarez who retained these qualities, it did not have to be that way though.
Both were of world class players regardless.
You say all he has is pace then say it is more likely he peaks at Rooney and Henry level? Two players that were anything but one dimensional. Also, if it weren't for injuries Owen would have been up there remembered as the greats of this generation.
Well even if you are right, Rooney has had a more successful career than Suarez so it was well worth it.
Neither of them had anything “coached out of them”. A footballer can learn new things without losing other attributes as a result. It’s not a zero sum game.
The fact that neither of them fully matched the crazy hype that accompanied their earlier years says more about the English hype machine than it does about anything else. Plus they both ended up exceptional world class players anyway.
And they can learn new things that make them net better players than they were before and lose some in the process that might ultimately have made them even better. Ferguson once commented for example that Giggs had probably had his flair coached out of him a bit too much as a young player.
my point is, regardless of how good he was, he could have been an even better player than he was and the seeds for that were present in him as a young player.
I find that hard to believe. Do you have a link for that quote?
No. I saw it on the telly ages ago.
I think saying it's very unlikely that he won't be an all time great is ridiculous. Just how I feel.
His performance against Argentina was great but lets see how he does against the low compact block of Uruguay. Argentina gave him license for destruction. Uruguay won't.
I think Giroud is your most important player in that game.
You sir are very quick at spotting talent. You just need to dismiss a spanish world class playmaker because of the size of his head and you qualify for a scouting position at Man United
No problem - I'd happily be chief scout at Man Utd - guaranteed you would be relegated.
From what I remember, in 2004, there was similar hype around Rooney and similar or even better performances from Rooney at EURO 2004.
People have short memories, Wayne Rooney was incredible as a kid.
People have short memories, Wayne Rooney was incredible as a kid.
Better how? Flair does not mean better always. Rooney could have easily gone down the route of talented journey men as well. Who could have become a better version of Queresma pulling of tricks in the final thirds and scoring the odd wonder goal.
Instead he become a key player for one Manchester United's most successful period ever. I would say he was coached brilliantly and all his raw ability translated to a lot of effective and mature play. His 2010 injury imo stopped him from becoming a proper goal scoring striker.
I really think the whole Rooney hype was a British thing. At least over here, noone considered Rooney Ronaldo's or even Messi's equal. In 2004, everybody was excited over Ronaldo but the stories of Rooney being a prodigy or the "white Pele" never made it until here. I only read of these opinions when I started reading the Redcafe some years ago and was really surprised he was considered that good. I also still remember the indicident between him and Cristiano at the WC 2006. There wasn't even a question mark behind who was the better talent back then and many even laughed at Rooney for taking himself far too important.
Cristiano really announced himself to the world in 2004 at the Euros. One year later, Robinho became known as the new Brazilian wonderchild with Pele declaring him his heir and the one to surpass him. In 2006 I heard of Messi the first time and people soon labelled him the new Maradona. After Robinho's move to Madrid, it initially was all about Robinho vs. Messi (new Pele vs new Maradona, Argentina vs. Brazil, Barca vs Madrid) while Cristiano got better and better at United and ultimately replaced Robinho both in the discussion and in Madrid.
So from my perspective, Cristiano, Robinho and Messi were the ones getting the greatest hype. Behind them, there were lots of talents like Ibrahimovic, Robben, Iniesta, Aguero, Sneijder, Benzema, Suarez, Higuain, Cassano, Rooney, Gourcuff, Torres or even Adriano and Kaka if you go back two or three years. Probably many more who I forgot.
Rooney belonged into this pool and I would say that a fair share still resided in front of him both in actual talent as well as hype. I'd say Robben and Ibrahimovic were considered bigger prospects while Benzema was probably his equal in the striker department.
Rooney never had the same potential as Messi or Ronaldo. Yes, Rooney was a physical freak of nature, however, it obscured the fact that his general technique was a little lower than that of the two aforementioned. How can this be proven? It is surely true that although an individual loses physical capabilities over the years, it is also surely true that he doesn't regress in his general technique. If your technique is clean and precise, it remains clean and precise even during a regression of physical capabilities. So, historical revisionists, have we any explanation as to why Rooney's first touch was cumbersome and average in his decline? as to why his passing accuracy was inconsistent in his decline? Players lose speed, acceleration, pace, muscular dynamism, but rarely ever technical capacity. What happened, is that due to Rooney's decline in physical prowess, his reliance upon his actual technical limitations were pushed all the more to the forefront of the fans eyes. Messi loses a yard or two of pace, and yet, his technique is more refined than ever; Ronaldo, also a step or two less dynamic, yet, technically still as clean as his United days, of not, more so.
Indeed.
England were in a group with France, Switzerland and Croatia. We were leading France 1-0 until Zidane scored a free kick and penalty in injury time to turn it round to 2-1. In that game Rooney looked great. Before the game Thuram had said that Rooney was too young for the occasion and at one point in the game Rooney completely skinned him and left him for dead. It was a sweet moment for him because it was Thuram who looked too old.
In the next two games we beat Switzerland 3-0 and Croatia 4-2 with Rooney scoring two goals in each game.
In the knockout phase we played Portugal and Rooney broke a bone in his foot early on, this was when football boots had become really thin and then they realised that the lack of protection was causing broken metatarsals. England went out on penalties, predictably. Rooney finished 2nd top scorer and made team of the tournament.
After that Rooney signed for United and scored a hat trick on his debut against Fenerbache. Kaka declared after that game that Rooney 'could become the best player ever'.
I never said he wasn't up there, I just disagree he was as talented as Messi especially, but its subjective anyway.
Well here in the U.S Rooney was definitely in the same boat. "Rooney and Ronaldo" were often spoken of together and many actually proffered Rooney but mainly because Ronaldo was seen as the stereotypical soccer player that focuses on style and dives around. I remember my dad who doesn't watch soccer at all coming home and asking what is this new Rooney stuff about.
Of course there was a lot of British hype added to it because England does that a lot but back then I think a lot of people considered Rooney, Ronaldo, Messi etc in the same bracket. I have no idea how Benzema was considered the same talent as Rooney but maybe it was different in Germany.
Also, people laugh at Fifa/FM ratings but I think it is a good indicator of public sentiment at the time and you will see Rooney's stats as incredibly high. I want to say probably better than Ronaldo's (for Fifa 2004 at least I am sure he was better than Ronaldo)
If you think you don't lose technique with age, watch Ronaldinho in his later years compared to earlier. You need the athleticism to pull of your technique. Players use technical ability all the time. Besides Rooney had other strengths (physical power, long shots). In hindsight he was not as good as Messi and Ronaldo, we all know that but back then they were in the same category.
I remember that summer very well. God, how exciting it was for us to sign him. I remember not being able to wait until that game against Fener. And after, well I think I spent weeks pretending I was Rooney when kicking the ball (I was 14) about with my mates.
Imagine if we had Twitter etc in those days. The hype would have been mental about him.
I'm not referring to dynamic elasticity needed to pull of sharp dribbling moves in multiple directions. Hocus pocus, elasticos, flip flaps. Rooney never did that anyway. I'm referring to general technique. First touch, passing technique, and other more fundamental technical foundations which aren't reliant on dynamism. diminishing speed/sharpness of muscular contractions aren't a factor in general passing and ball control standards, or else Totti would have regressed, technically.