Like Cristiano, he cannot be considered the best ever regardless of his achievements because his game has limitations. He lacks the artistry and genius of the best ever ie. Messi, Maradona and Pele. The possoble parallels with Cristiano Ronaldo simply cannot be ignored.
Kylian Mbappe | PSG
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Ronaldo has a very weird cult following. He is the one player considered one of the greatest but there are players considered less great who were better footballers but did not have his longevity or statistics. If there is one lesson Ronaldo's career teaches us about mordern football, it is that stats are king. He embodies the mordern footballer in more ways then one.
Fortunately for Messi, he matches Ronaldo in the numbers game but if he did not, rest assured he too would be considered a lesser player.
As far as Mbappe is concerned, if he win alot with big goal contributions, there will be some noise about him similar to Cristiano but because Messi has the numbers and success to match anyone AND is quite obviously a superior footballer he won't be considered the outright GOAT.
There was a time you argued with me regarding the Mbappe goat thing; I hope you understand that there is a distinct possibility of such noise emanating about him in the future.
Yet for many people Cristiano is the goat or among them...and it's with him like I've said in other posts that the stats tendency got more predominant than in past periods (yet it was always important)...such scenario helps this current version of Killian as a player.
PD: BTW I won't get into such things as subjective as artistry, thought I trully get your point.
In any case it seems that nobody got entirely my point (my writing certainly doesn't help, I know it).
I'm not saying that he will certainly become THE GOAT, in fact I hate such term and I do not endorse it.
I'm just saying that due to his obvious talent, his great scoring output, the fact that he arrives in his prime with a current tendency of putting more emphasis on stats, CLs the always present romanticism of WCs, he has a GREAT CHANCE to be "Goated among the Goats" and similar silly terms and rankings.
He is in the right spot, he has the tools to continue at a very high level, with the possibility of winning lots of silverware, plus he isn't either a player that lacks grace or skills, so he is in a great fecking SPOT.
SIDE NOTE:
If my favorite player ever is Maradona, if I love Zico and Platini on a level that for me are among my favorites ever, liking them more than Killian or Cris, would not have much to do with how lots of people watch and feel football in a diff way than me.
I give another example, for me R9, even without injuries (BTW he wasn't the only player that had them), wasn't either the type of player that would be my overall favorite in an all time basis.
Yet I do get how attractive is the style of a player like R9 (end even Mbappe) being a constant devastating menace due to their combination of size, pace, power and skills.
That's a very attracting style, but I'm more fond of finding more talented a player with a more intricated game, that also can provide an extra quote of pace, goals, but that mainly plays some kind of a "wild card" pulling out forward and off mids stuff on regular basis and within a match. There are lots of people that do not share my view.
People like being dickheads about stuff. I like your posts, it'd be a boring forum if everyone was just putting out the usual two/three sentence, half-arsed, mobile phone on the train/while walking the dog type posts.
Thanks, yeah I know, but credit when its due my posts sometimes are quite disorganized and quite a mess. I can do better
Wrong thread?
Ag, Mbappe is yours anyway. So should’ve just kept the post in hereSuper wrong thread
Just deleted the post.
I don't think he's going to reach that level or be comparable to Cristiano. He has better achievements with his national team but club wise is a landslide in favor of Cristiano. He has been way too long on PSG so I really wouldn't put those expectations on him.
Well some people may but I'd imagine most people don't. But what is the actual relevance of that question to what is being discussed? You asked why Iniesta is not the GOAT, and the answer is that for 90% of his trophies (maybe even 100%), he was not considered to be the best player in his team. And that's not to be disrespectful to a player that I greatly admire. The individual awards help in creating a narrative that someone is the key guy in a successful team. And I was talking hypothetically about Mbappe winning a lot of them, not just one.
Well is Cristiano Ronaldo one of these great ones or is he not? Because, by my estimation, he has broken the mould and become the first person to muscle into the 'GOAT discussion' without the requisite ability. My contention is that if he can do it, others can do it. I think the parameters have changed, not sure why you think they are set in stone.
If Mbappe scores 60-70 goals per season for at least 6 more years, wins everything multiple times, and does his usual World Cup magic in two more World Cups and euros. Then he will be the GOAT for many. I have never seen someone who looks like a monster, villain, or the final boss of a world cup like Mbappe.
He's not that guy.
I feel fairly confident in saying....nah.
The first thing to point out about C. Ronaldo is that, whilst he didn't have the ability of those in that S tier, he was still an exceptional and rounded/complete player in many ways/facets and that is slowly but surely being eroded when he is discussed, like, his ability itself is being reduced to bring others into discussions particularly with him.
The current batch of players contesting for best on the planet are collectively a weak bunch in terms of technical brilliance and stupendous ability, meanwhile, C.Ronaldo always had crossover with many who are regarded as very special when it comes to technique, so he was being judged to a higher level of acumen out of the gate - his direct peer/rival was also the only player people directly compare to Maradona 1:1 in terms of outright ability. It's not some random bar or erratic one, it's the highest there is - earlier in C.Ronaldo's career, players like Ronaldinho and Zidane were still the reference point, and next to all of them, he technically cannot outdo the collective. Remove all those guys from the landscape, as Mbappe has had the privilege afforded, and C.Ronaldo is perceived very differently to how he was.
Mbappe holds a candle to none of them, to a greater degree, probably, due to his reduced array of skills, and it's not collectively talked about anymore because it doesn't really matter until all-time scrutiny rears its head, like it has in this discussion. What Mbappe is is sufficient amongst his peers, and that's all that matters, until we're no longer talking about his peers. It's not just Messi and C.Ronaldo and their scoring escapades skewing the landscape; it's a previous generation of outstanding technical footballers: Ronaldo, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Messi, Neymar and so on and so forth. Currently there's no successor to any of them, not even close, but the moment they are mentioned, they make dwarves of what we currently refer to as the best of the best. So when you compare Mbappe to C.Ronaldo, it is not a like for like, and despite C.Ronaldo not being able to take over and dominate games like those he is scrutinised against, he could do so to a considerably greater degree than we've seen from Mbappe in club football.
I understand what you mean by C.Ronaldo muscling in via sheer determination and consistency, but what C.Ronaldo is, Mbappe hasn't shown to be anything like as of now, so it isn't 'well why not Mbappe too?' in my head because it has no grounds - Mbappe hasn't shown enough of himself being a juggernaut in the club game to be comparable to the Portuguese or even to follow his path. By the age Mbappe is now, C.Ronaldo was going into hyperdrive and taking the club game by storm. Can we say the same of Mbappe? Not really.
These two are at odds with the normal scaling, also - Mbappe has a phenomenal international pedigree, where C.Ronaldo did and does not, but 180'd, C.Ronaldo had a club pedigree that invokes names such as Di Stefano and Puskas, where Mbappe definitely does not, so they are two incomplete players in this way needing the other ones 'half' to make a whole in the way that's usually needed for literal greatest of all time discussion.
Mbappe will have to take club football by storm with his transfer to move the dial. He's been stagnant for quite some time now, so that's an interesting proposition in itself. Can he go to Madrid and tear up trees and become a phenomenon in his own right? And to what extent? In these hypotheticals where he conquers the world, can he suddenly become a player that the game revolves around? I may have sounded harsh in saying it's impossible for him to reach the top table, but imo, he'll have to do something we've never seen before (and what I believe he is incapable of) in controlling and outperforming all to such a degree, it wouldn't even be associative of the Mbappe we've seen throughout his career to be possible. It's not like a young Maradona achieving true ascendancy at 25, or Messi realising his potential, or Ronaldo just carrying on his trajectory for a period of time - it's a player who has not shown that level suddenly becoming something wholly different to what he has been his whole career. Performance is what moves the dial, far more than goals in and of themselves. "Performance for the ages" is what sticks, not goal #455 or goal #456.
And the parameters never change, no. They remain steadfast and resolute, which was evidenced throughout the inanity of the Messi vs. C.Ronaldo borefest. In the end, once the dust settles, everything stays how it has always been when it comes to final evaluation, which is precisely why someone like Maradona has not and will not be erased from the timeline, despite not fitting this modern criterium in the slightest.
I disagree that Ronaldo and Mbappe are that far apart in terms of base level talent. I watched Ronaldo as a teenager and I watched Mbappe as a teenager. I'd argue that Mbappe was a better player as a teen. In fact, I recall that a lot of people thought that Rooney was a better player than Ronaldo when they both started at United as young players. Now Ronaldo worked really really hard and improved a lot, and quickly, culminating in his first Ballon D'Or win. You can argue that Mbappe has not improved that much, since he burst onto the scene as the wonderkid for Monaco and in the World Cup. That would be fair. But in terms of base ability, I don't think there's that much difference.
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But we're not talking about teens. Mbappe burst out the traps and was way beyond others in terms of what he was doing and how he was doing it; he is now entering the period of maturation, where many hit their peak, and it is at this point that he is starting to lag. C.Ronaldo went supernova at this juncture, and Mbappe will have to do the same to remain in the same classification. Ronaldo's maturation also came in harder leagues against better opponents. His trials and tribulations all documented. Mbappe really needs this Madrid move, or some move to another giant that gives him the opportunity to even show he can go up a couple of gears.
If we're talking about talent then we're talking about teens because genius level ability is typically evident from an early age. We saw that with Pele and we saw it with Maradona. Neither Mbappe nor C. Ronaldo displayed anything like that kind of aptitude, but Mbappe at that age was better IMO. I disagree slightly with your points about the harder leagues. I mean, I get that the Premier League is much better than the French league, but let's not forget Mbappe's exploits as a youngster for Monaco in the Champions League and for France in the World Cup. We never saw anything like that from Ronaldo, and he had a really good Portugal team as a platform in the early days. Not to say that he wasn't good, but he wasn't what Mbappe was in the 2018 WC.
I get your point about Mbappe possibly stagnating at PSG, I think most agree that he probably should have gone to Madrid earlier. But he has time; DiStefano did not go to Real Madrid until he was 27, and basically everything he is remembered for happened after that move.
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But the discussion moved on from that as stated: Mbappe burst out the traps and was way beyond others in terms of what he was doing and how he was doing it - Monaco; International football; the CL; domestic football. It is accepted; he was well ahead of all contemporaries in terms of age at which he was performing, even Neymar hadn't done so much so young and he was a special prodigy tearing it up at Santos chasing Pele's age related feats, so yeah, Mbappe was automatically categorised with a very select grouping, if not for talent, then certainly for effectiveness.
Equally, the reality is that he has stagnated, and those who he was so far ahead of as contemporary peers, are catching up to him rather than him extending the distance between them and himself. Meanwhile, if we run timelines parallel to each other, Mbappe's young self that was so far ahead of C.Ronaldo's is caught up to and surpassed at the age Mbappe currently is, which is why I'm referring to the stage of teenagehood(?); let's consider it the chunk of their 20's that is yet to come for Mbappe: 24 - 28. We can park the teenage bit, or even the introductory period to their acknowledgments as best players in the world or thereabouts and obviously Mbappe is ahead there for his teenage feats, but we're now reaching maturity, and this is where a currently stagnant Mbappe is up against a C.Ronaldo who just got better and better during this period, across two teams and leagues.
Di Stefano isn't only known for Madrid, even if it is the first thing that comes to mind for him. Like Puskas, his resume was near flawless before he got to the club and if anything, there was merely a continuation of that to wider audience who may have heard of his exploits at River. I don't think Mbappe would be arriving with the same kind of fanfare, well, depending on his Euros, to be fair.
The problem when mentioning Di Stefano here also is that he did exactly what I referred to previously, not just scoring goals, but being absolutely and utterly intrinsic and dominant in the side he made his own, which is something I stated Mbappe has no history of doing, and something I doubt he's actually capable of as he hasn't shown that in his career to date. It'll be unprecedented if he goes from a moments player to someone who is a perennial fixture on the ball that makes entire games his own.
Mbappé hasn't stagnated, he is better at what he does than he was before. The issue is more that his style is similar to Cristiano Ronaldo in his 30s which has a double edged sword, he is a very productive player but he sacrificed flair. He basically put himself in a similar bucket than Salah. It doesn't matter how productive these players are they will be penalized for their lack of magic when compared to other greats.
Well here's the complexity: attenuated a certain part of his game and become hyperfocused at it whilst losing other qualities does not mean there has been progress. His ability to influence and turn games is no greater for his shift, hence stagnation as opposed to him being inclusive of a higher level of productiveness in front of goal allied to being a greater threat on the way to it, which was his real killer trait coming up alongside his reading of the game.
I don't think we've seen a net improvement in him in quite some time, do you?
He hasn't lost any qualities though. I mean which qualities are you thinking about?
his movements and running towards the box - his approach play.
Not today (outside of our esteemed Draft forum of course). In today's world, if you have the stats, people will respect you despite a lack of subjective flair or magic. Despite C Ronaldo's lack of flair, he's ranked as the second greatest player of all time by many people today, because of his numbers and trophy count.
He hasn't lost any of that. He has actually improved in that area when it comes to shorter runs and play between the lines instead of being very vertical because teams focus on taking away those vertical options and neither France nor PSG have the passers able to play those vertical passes.
Hmmm... that's a good point. Then it would be fair to say it's not something being seen like it used to be and it was a huge part of his game.
I'm not sure what's replaced it has advanced him or kept him where he was i.e. he's equally as effective as he was, not more.
He has worse teams around him especially when it comes to creativity and consistency(I'm looking at you Ousmane). If you take PSG as an example, it's team that replaced Verratti, Di Maria and Neymar with significantly inferior technicians and players with far less creativity.
Now you want to know something funny, currently in the 23/24 CL campaign Mbappé has the highest xAG at 4.5(he somehow has 0 assists), the next player is Gundogan at 3.5 and then Vinicius at 3.3. To this point Mbappé created the larger amount of good chances and scored the most.
Regardless of stats, GOATS, Real Madrid and whatnot, would you still take Mbappe at United?
If Ratcliffe pops up in the summer and says Mbappe wants to play for United, do we buy him?
If Ratcliffe pops up in the summer and says Mbappe wants to play for United, do we buy him?
So just 70 goals a season for the next 6 years, plus another World Cup and Euros?
Practically a shoe-in. May as well give him the title now.
yea he was the most athletic player ever, and I don't really think its close, hes so well balanced without a weakness physically.
Mbappe is mostly physical as well, super quick, strong, and he turns really well (better than Ronaldo), its hard to deal with. However if you deal with it, especially in Mbappe case, he doesn't have much more, and he wont improve as much as others as hes already physically developed.
So your contention is he's actually gotten better, but because those around him have gotten worse, it's not being properly exhibited?
It's not just those around him, he has been given roles that are often limiting especially last season. This season the team isn't really that vertical so the things that you mentioned earlier aren't going to be as prevalent as they would be with the likes of Di Maria, Neymar or Verratti. But if you want an example of how his game expended you just have to look at the 21/22 season where he had freedom and the room to use it due to Neymar's injury, he was the creative hub for PSG while maintaining the same goals output, he has done the same thing for France later. That's where his "demands" for more freedom come from.
Now the question is whether he can sustain it for a long period of time, that I don't know.
Yeah I'm aware that DiStefano did stuff and was great and prolific before he came to Europe but the fact of the matter is that Madrid is by far what he is most remembered for. Especially as he never got to play at a World Cup. Even the River team you mentioned, he was not an original member of 'the Machine' (the famed forward line) but came in initially as a young replacement for Pedernera. He performed really well, but it was other players who built the reputation of that team.
If we accept that DiStefano is synonymous with Madrid, the same could be true of Mbappe by the time he is done. It's a very good and young team he is (probably) joining and a great platform. Let's see how he does. I suspect he will do very well.
I take your point about the way DiStefano played, but I wasn't comparing the two stylistically, as they are completely different. I was merely pointing out that Mbappe has time on his side.
Don't think so the game has changed a lot and a more modern comparison would be Cristiano Ronaldo and he's quite far behind him.
Mbappe relies heavily on physical attribute including explosiveness. When he loses abit of his 0 to 60 acceleration in his late 20's, that is when the true test of his "goatness" will begin. I'm saying this because as people are rightfully saying the mordern game is about stats and success regardless of finesse and artistry; this is embodied most by Cristiano. I highly doubt if Mbappe has the incomparable drive for personal glory that Cristiano does to be able to reach goat discussion. What he does have, however, is success with the French national team which if added upon can get him into the discussion.
BUT that lack of genius will always prevent him from being categorised in the same bracket as Messi, Maradona and Pele. This applies to Haaland as well or anyone else currently playing the game.
In the peak years, it is a difficult comparison. Ronaldo played in better club sides and under better managers than Mbappe has done so far; not saying PSG is a poor side but definitely not as good the Real Madrid or United sides Ronaldo played in.The converse is true when it comes to their respective national teams. The true test for Mbappe will be after he moves to Madrid; can he achieve the stats and success that Ronaldo did? My money is yes in the early years but I highly doubt if he has the same drive for personal glory to maintain his stats into his 30s.
As players, I think they are similar except Ronaldo was better at heading and very long range shots, Mbappe is more explosive and better at turning.
BUT that lack of genius will always prevent him from being categorised in the same bracket as Messi, Maradona and Pele. This applies to Haaland as well or anyone else currently playing the game.
I think what people are referring to is loss of some flair. People don't watch ligue 1 and also consider it a farmer's keague, so will judge him by what he does in the UCL; truth be told he has been poor since last season.
During the teenage years Mbappe> Ronaldo quite easily.
In the peak years, it is a difficult comparison. Ronaldo played in better club sides and under better managers than Mbappe has done so far; not saying PSG is a poor side but definitely not as good the Real Madrid or United sides Ronaldo played in.The converse is true when it comes to their respective national teams. The true test for Mbappe will be after he moves to Madrid; can he achieve the stats and success that Ronaldo did? My money is yes in the early years but I highly doubt if he has the same drive for personal glory to maintain his stats into his 30s.
As players, I think they are similar except Ronaldo was better at heading and very long range shots, Mbappe is more explosive and better at turning.
I think Pele is the most athletic player ever to be honest, even though he played in the 60s. He had a 48 inch vertical jump and could run the 100 metres in 11 seconds. I think CR's vertical was measured at 41, and he's living on all the modern junk they pump sportspeople full of these days.
Prime Michael Jordan was measured at 48 inches vertical if I remember correctly. That obviously doesn't mean Pele's figure is impossible but it seems very unlikely for a football player in the sixties no matter how athletic.
Sounds made up.
Having rewatched full games on the FlFA website, free for anyone who’d like to btw, a lot of his abilities seem greatly exaggerated. But not the topic for it I guess.
Agreed. It's not that he has stagnated so much as he hasn't improved as much as most people expected of him even 2 years ago. The player I saw against us in 2022 was absolutely game breaking, in a way I've seen from 4 or 5 other players in 30 years. There was an implicit expectation he'd keep growing and improve on that, and he hasn't really, not to any appeciable degree. He's still poor playing back to goal, he doesn't get more involved in deeper areas, he's not a more frequent ball carrier in transition, he's actually kinda lost a bit of that directness he had early in his career that made him so spectacular
You're going to counter that all that is down to PSG, not him, and my answer to that is: that's the point. It is PSG's fault indeed. That's why he should have left 2 years ago. Don't matter where he went, as long as it was to an environment that truly challenged him, and expected him, to improve, and to do more