He’s right though. What is it with you and long ass paragraphs? No one wants to go through that.well it wasn't directed to you...so no loss
Kylian Mbappe | PSG
- Thread starter RDCR07
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Nor me, but I wonder how he would be received if he brought you guys another major or two?
Platini's Euro '84 is about the best performance in a major there is. That it was the Euros instead of the World Cup is the only thing separating him from a massive leap in standing. So besting him, performance or talentwise, well, good luck with that!
For me he would have to be a better footballer but I don't know if it's true for the majority of people. Maybe two World Cups would make a difference, winning the Euro wouldn't because Zidane did that and then Zidane has one of the most dominant tournament that I can remember in 2006.
It just happens from time to time, thought to be sincere the real issue it's not writing them correctly.
PD: BTW, what is with you lot not moving on and just not reading them? it's not hard man, specially when it's a direct answer to another person.
My favorite French player ever is Platini (one of my favorite players ever no matter origin), yet there were times and even today, that in many rankings Zizou is placed above. I guess mainly due to his style and his WC.
Just imagine if Mbappe wins another WC, wins a lot with Real and manteins his stats, his name will go up fast as fvck, he'll be GOATED, no matter what we three think about that.
PD: That Euro from Platini was fantastic. One of the best tournaments from any player on any period.
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May be I am biased, I don't even find him better than Henry at the same age in terms of technique, and Mbappe is already 25 and should be at the peak of his power for his playing style.
I disagree. If his achievements and trophy haul warrant him being called the GOAT (multiple World Cup wins, many CLs, many Ballon D'Ors etc.), then he will be called the GOAT. What C. Ronaldo has taught us is that otherworldly genius/ability is not a prerequisite anymore. I don't think he has the ability (or the insane determination of CR7) to achieve all those things, but if he does then he will be called the GOAT, and there isn't really an argument against it outside of personal preference and/or aesthetics.
It all feels a bit anticlimactic, no?
Mbappe has a great career so far, and he will probably score more goals and get more trophies while he plays for Real Madrid, but that won't automatically make him GOAT.
Well there will be arguments, those that sustain our personal prefferences, but like you've said and I've said, those arguments might not hold as much water as they used to. Less if he adds the romanticism of a WC and the pragmatism of winning CLs while he scores for fun.
In any case, he clearly has in a strict football sense "issues" to solve to fully take advantage of this new stage in his career.
For France he has been a lot better but I don't know if he is better than prime Henry with Arsenal.
I don't think anyone thinks that he will automatically be call THE GOAT, but he'll be Goated more than probably, there are already lots of stuff in internet making comparisons with Messi that are more adecuate on a mere stats evaluation, than what they've have done in the pitch.
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Nah, he took his time, but he is more mature, in his prime, with a great Madrid in the making (in terms of how young the team is) waiting....of course if he tries to pull out some of his spoiled brat outbursts in Real, he'll have to deliver ASAP.
More when for some fans he played a bit too much his cards of a possible transfer to Madrid these last years.
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He's nowhere near Henry in terms of technique; he's not better physically either or in any somehow measurable footballing ability, to be honest.
he's at a bit of a disadvantage in these all time discussions seeing how he is much more numbers oriented than dictating a game through his footballing ability the way the other greats are remembered for say Messi, Maradona etc.
Not unlike Ronaldo his supposed idol who kept himself in the discussion with Messi for a while through the sheer number of his goals scored but seems to have faded from the conversation as of now, except he's not on his level either though definitely much more capable overall than say haaland.
Not unlike Ronaldo his supposed idol who kept himself in the discussion with Messi for a while through the sheer number of his goals scored but seems to have faded from the conversation as of now, except he's not on his level either though definitely much more capable overall than say haaland.
Well, he's also responsible for that.
We were spoilt by Messi, and Ronaldo would still have beaten anyone around in most decades. Mbappe is a fantastic player but underwhelming in comparison.
He should have left before or better, gone to La Liga after Monaco. Its probably harmed his develop as a player going to PSG.
They're too dominant in the French league and it's too easy for him just to cruise.
They're too dominant in the French league and it's too easy for him just to cruise.
Can't wait for new topic in few years titled "What is Real Madrid secret?".
Great player and if he clicks for them they will be unstoppable.
Great player and if he clicks for them they will be unstoppable.
He's been better in CL too. Henry was similar to Hazard - freakish in PL, but merely very good outside the PL(very, very, very good, but not somebody who stood out like a Ronaldinho, Kaka, Zidane, Rivaldo, Figo or Eto'o...). People who followed the PL closely in those years are always going to rate him higher than those of us who didn't
That doesn't matter. Why are people not listening?! The game has changed now. Ability and appreciation of the aesthetic doesn't mean what it once did. The discourse on the game has dumbed down.
If Mbappe wins more World Cups, a Euros, let's say 4 or 5 CLs and 4 or 5 Ballon D'Ors, millions of people will say he's the greatest player of all time. We've seen it with CR7, I watched him play as a teenager and there is no way you could have seen what I saw and think to yourself 'this kid has GOAT level ability'. Yet 20 years later, there's a vast religious movement of people who will fight you if you claim that he's not the greatest ever.
People don't judge on performances anymore.
Now the hypothetical I've stated above re Mbappe is unlikely IMO. I don't think he will achieve all of that or even close. And he's already quite far into his career. But he's going to the club where it seems pretty easy to win everything over and over again. If he does end up with a haul.similar to what i outlined, there is no legit argument against him attaining that status in the minds of many in the modern world. I'm obviously a big admirer of Messi, but people need to wake the f up and get real with this stuff......
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I mean it also depends on how he wins. At the end of the day effectiveness is what really determines how good a player is. If Mbappé wins 3 WCs and 5 CL scoring game winning goals in every final, generally being the best player in every tournament, then yeah, of course he'd be regarded as the best of all time, with very good reason. Even though he obviously doesn't have the technical talent of Messi
I see where you're coming from but tend to disagree. I think it is incredibly annoying that people judged so much based on stats and trophies alone but while this reached pretty absurd levels in the Messi vs CR7 debates, I think it is already regressing. Haaland for instance gets criticized a lot because he does too little outside of scoring goals. IMO, people forgot why Messi and Cristiano were considered the best in the world to begin with. Back then it was because of their incredible ability not just some goal stats. It boiled down to stats more and more over the years but now that both are in semi retirement, we're slowly getting back to where we came from. In the end, football fans aren't dumb. They do realize that Foden might be having a better season than Haaland despite the latter's ridiculous goal output.
That aside, it helps that more and more advanced metrics find their ways into mainstream football coverage that highlight different aspects of a player's performances.
I'm not even sure if the premise is correct. If it was the case Iniesta would be considered the best player of all time. Ignoring league titles because it would actually widen the gap, who else has 4 CLs, 2 Euros and 1 WC? There is a handful of Real Madrid players with 5 CLs but they don't have the same international career and also don't have the same league success.
I'd agree with this.
Henry wasn't a great big game player. He really struggled to score goals in finals. I think it's 0 goals from 9 major finals.
Henry is probably the greatest PL player of all time though. His run between 2000-2006. Unplayable at times.
Hazard's numbers dropped off a lot in The CL. Henry still has a good CL record overall.
Mbappé is one of the most productive CL player ever, so yeah that's correct. Honestly I'm playing devil's advocate because while I do believe that Henry's best level is higher the reality of the matter is that in key moments I would take Trezeguet or Mbappé before Henry.
Trezeguet.
I think I remember Henry saying that Trezeguet is the best finisher he's ever seen.
The bolded statement is part of the problem. For me, it is performances that determine how good a player is, not 'effectiveness', whatever that means. You can be the best player on the pitch without scoring or assisting a goal. The main guy in the West Germany and Bayern sides of the 70s was Beckenbauer, not Gerd Muller. And yet it was Muller who scored all the crucial goals in the finals etc.
One example of what I'm trying to say is this: in the 86 World Cup, David Pleat was commentating on Maradona and Argentina during the tournament and he said 'I think he's dethroned Pele. I've never seen such a wonderful player'. Now at that stage, Maradona had nor won the World Cup. In fact, he hadn't won anything of note, particularly. Nor had he scored a thousand goals, like Pele. Pleat was just watching him play and thinking 'I've never seen anything like this before'
Nowadays it would be like 'well what has he won?' (despite the fact that football is a team game)....'how many goals has he scored?'.....'well that's all well and good but what if he flops in the final?'.....'yeah but can he do it in X league?' and other such sundry nonsense.
In fact, at the time of that tournament, Maradona was widely considered the best player in the world but he hadn't won a league title in Europe, let alone a European Cup or an international title. No one with that lack of team success would be adjudged the world's best player in the modern game.
In the current climate, it matters little that Mbappe will never be able to produce some of the all round oerformances we've seen from someone like Messi. He will be judged on what he wins and as you say, how many goals and especially how many critical goals he scores. That is not actually the right way to judge IMO, but it is the way he will be judged because that is how people judge footballers now.
I used effectiveness as a synonim for performance. A great performance is by definition an impactful one -> high effectiveness. You can't have a great performance if you don't affect the game at all for example
I thought Henry was great for Arsenal in the CL around 2002-2006 (62% of their goals and assists during that period).
It's individual awards as well, under the new rules of judgment. Iniesta has no Ballon D'Ors or FIFA WPOTYs. We all know that if Mbappe wins all the trophies that have been outlined, he will win several Ballon D'Ors as well.
I don't believe those things matter as much as you think in the public's perception. There's a noisy minority who keeps posting stuff like this under every social media post they can find but I'd say most football fans couldn't even tell if Messi or Cristiano got more CLs. Those things are for football nerds and those are very loud but not the majority. I think the much bigger factor is big game performances - how well do you play when everybody is watching?
That aside, even if it would be the criterion most people build their opinions on, Mbappe won't get anywhere near the accolades of Messi and Cristiano. He'll turn 26 this winter. Assuming he plays on a top level until he's 34, he'd need to win 7 Ballon d'Ors in 9 years to match Messi.
Bet you’d happily have him at your club though. Mbappe is quality. He’s not shown it the last few months for PSG because his head was already in Madrid.
So in your estimation people have Cannavaro above Maldini or Baresi?
You're arguing a subjective criteria that is more about pop culture rather than what the greater masses have always had set in stone. Even when the pop culture arguments are presented, the time proven methods always win through, remaining stoic and unwavering, taking energy and oxygen away from the noise.
Equally, when great ones do come around, *everyone* acknowledges. It's by virtue of what it represents that such a stir is rarely caused.
This is not true, Messi-Pele-Maradona are the top-3 for most. All three are GOAT level playmakers + dribblers, Pele and Messi are also GOAT level goalscorers. Messi had 4 Ballon D'ors already at 24, Pele won the WC at 17, this is what a potential GOAT looks like.
I don't know what Ronaldo has taught you but for most he has no business in being a part of the GOAT conversation, see below. Even many of his teammates at United and Real declared Messi as the GOAT (many before his WC or Copa win) including Modric, Ramos, Giggs, Rooney, Scholes etc. that's the extent of Ronaldo's involvement in the GOAT conversation once upon a time.
www.redcafe.net/threads/top-10-greatest-players-of-all-time.480982/
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Mbappe age:25
Ballon D'or: 0
FIFA Best: 0
Golden Shoe: 0
IFFHS World's Best Playmaker Award:0
Champions League top goalscorer: 0
International Tournament MVP: 0
Mbappe if he wins couple of CL titles, La Ligas as the main man etc. he can surpass Ronaldo (as his NT career is already superior to Ronaldo's), he is not a threat to Messi, Maradona or Pele.
You should also know that most on twitter, instagram are clueless teenagers posting BS, you're wrongly assuming that this is the total set of football fans, and their posts are mostly ridiculed these days. Most serious football fans would not spend much time in those places. Also, you're ignoring what football experts (including former and current players) say when it comes to GOAT conversation, their opinions carry way more importance and accordingly are perceived more credible and create a lot of hype like below quote.
"Cristiano Ronaldo is a great player, but those who claim that he is better than Messi don't understand anything about football or say it in bad faith," Van Basten told Corriere della Sera.
"Messi is unique, inimitable and unrepeatable. Players like him appear every 50 or 100 years. As a child he fell into the pot of football genius."
www.onefootball.com/en/news/van-basten-those-who-think-ronaldos-better-than-messi-know-nothing-about-football-29298504
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Great like Dinho, Kaka, Figo, Rivaldo, etc were?