Like I said before, its not just the stats that made Mbappe impressive, its the fact he was doing it against some of the best teams in the world consistently. If it were just about stats I would've brought up his stats in ligue 1 that year that were far superior to Messis at the same age, but I didnt, only games of very high quality where Mbappe always performed.
Kylian Mbappe | PSG
- Thread starter RDCR07
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And I said that'd be the eye test of someone who isn't sane to say the least. I have no idea wtf you're on about with your 2nd paragraph
you're a bullshitter extraordinaire. I've watched Hatem since his first ever pro game. Even watched for the U20 at the time, he was the most promising young player of that famous group but you gotta be absolutely special in the dome to think his dribbling was better than Messi at the time. Messi was only a sub because he was struggling for fitness, it was obvious he was a unique generational talent. Even that young, he was that good
Nice to meet you Stephen A. Smith.
One of the problems that comes with looking back and comparing seasons by using numbers as the metric, is that it ignores a lot of the context that was going on at the time.
It’s weird to say now, but there was a time when Messi was being constantly plagued by injuries. He kept missing a fair bit of football that scuppered his chances of playing some high profile games, the year that Barcelona beat Arsenal in the CL final Messi had injured himself halfway through that season, he would have been 18 iirc, and he would have certainly started that game. He was 18 that season and starting against Madrid and in important CL ties, he had a good partnership with Ronaldinho and Eto’o and despite being a kid looked well at home. He’d gone past being someone with huge potential to being someone who was already a brilliant footballer, albeit with injury troubles. Barcelona even turned down a €150m bid in 2006 for Messi.
Mbappe is a brilliant footballer and this forum has been particularly guilty of tearing him down recently, the reaction to a tepid Euros has been pretty ludicrous. If I had to pick between an 18 year old Messi and Mbappé, without the benefit of hindsight and judging them solely on their 18 year olds performances, it would still be Messi.
Okay, so firstly Ronaldinho always played on the left wing for Barcelona so he definitely wasnt in Messis way. The only player in the way of Messi at that time was Guily who tbf was a good player and suited the style of barca at that time. Messi even started some important games like el classico that season and first leg vs Chelsea in champions league but ultimately couldnt keep his spot over guily who was playing very well on the RW that year. Messi always played RW up until peps 2nd or 3rd year where he eventually moved to a false 9 which by that time he was already about 22.
Secondly, I never included any of Mbappes ligue 1 stats for a reason, the only stats I mentioned where in the knockout stages of the CL and the 2018 world cup so him being in ligue 1 is irrelevant.
Also I completely agree R9 was on another level to everyone else mentioned as a teen, its just that people like to overrate Messi and Cristiano as teens because its easy to in hindsight. R9 is a true example of someone who already was in their prime as a teenager, the likes of Cristiano and Messi were incredibly talented but didn't reach the very top levels until they were about 21, still doesnt take anything away from what they went on to achieve...
Ben Arfa had more completed dribbles per 90 than Messi be it in in the PL or Ligue 1 . As I said this is some ridiculous best player in the world bias
The same bias that makes you guys believe 18 y.o Messi, a bench player for Ludovic Giuly with 8 goals scored, is better than 18 y.o Mbappe who had 37 G+A and scored 6 goals in 6 UCL ko stage games against City Dortmund Juventus
Sure he does have huge potential and talent even at age 18,19. But he didn't really achieve much at that age, due to his young age, inexperience, injuries, not yet fully developed as world class playmaker, lack of end products, lack of impact in winning trophies, better players ahead of him limiting his start etc, whatever, you named it.
Truth is, I always rate young Messi as one of biggest young talent I've ever seen, more so than Mbappe. even at 18, 19, I do think he is already better dribbler than Ronaldinho, who is best known for his amazing dribbling skills and tricks. But truth is, he hasn't done much at that age yet, and the bottom line is, football is competitive game, not a what-if imaginary game judged by glimpse of talent or who's having higher potential. Mbappe is simply better than Messi at that age, for what he has done on the pitch, and for his overall contributions to his team on winning games and trophies, despite being less talent and lower potential. But Messi is far better from 21-22 onwards, no questions about that. Only a blind or self-insecure person would be afraid to acknowledge the whole picture of that.
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Messi played as a forward for the youth teams, or as a number 10. When he was promoted he played on the right because Ronaldinho played from the left. And it wasn’t that he couldn’t keep his spot, by this point he had become first choice on the right, but he picked up an injury and was ruled out for the season.
I never said once Messi is the best player so the bias you're refering to is unknown to me.
I don't care about stats as I thought this was about the eye test. Stats when it comes to this are ridiculous, the same stats say Adama Traore is a great dribbler when the eye test (your favorite tool) says otherwise
Messi started life in the youth teams on the left wing or in the middle. He moved to the right in order to break into the first team, which he duly did until he got injured. His very early years in the Barcelona first team were a story of getting used to a new position and the more physical nature of the adult game.
Mbappe was simply a more physically developed player than Messi at that age. He wasn't anywhere near as good.
An interesting topic.
To the point of comparing performances or, at least, the perception of their performances and standing relative to their peers, here's some sources that might provide useful indicators:
Ballon d'Or ranking - n° of points - n° of votes
Messi
BdO 2005 : #N/A - N/A - N/A (18,5yo)
BdO 2006 : #20 - 2 pts - 1 vote (19,5yo)
BdO 2007 : #3 - 255 pts - 79 votes (20,5yo)
BdO 2008 : #2 - 281 pts - 90 votes (21,5yo)
BdO 2009 : #1 - 473 pts - 96 votes (22,5yo)
Mbappé
BdO 2016 : #N/A - N/A - N/A (18yo)
BdO 2017 : #7 - 48 pts - 25 votes (19yo)
BdO 2018 : #4 - 347 pts - 113 votes (20yo)
BdO 2019 : #6 - 89 pts - 42 votes (21yo)
BdO 2020 : award cancelled (Lewandowski probably would've won fairly unanimously; Mbappé anywhere from #2 to #5 probably?) (22yo)
Number of selections in European Sports Media team of the month / Included in ESM team of the season?
Messi
2004/05 (17yo) - ESM XI : 0 selections / No
2005/06 (18yo) - ESM XI : 3 selections / Yes
2006/07 (19yo) - ESM XI : 2 selections / No
2007/08 (20yo) - ESM XI : 4 selections / Yes
2008/09 (21yo) - ESM XI : 6 selections / Yes
Mbappé
2015/16 (17,5yo) - ESM XI : 0 selections / No
2016/17 (18,5yo) - ESM XI : 2 selections / No
2017/18 (19,5yo) - ESM XI : 0 selections / No
2018/19 (20,5yo) - ESM XI : 2 selections / No
2019/20 (21,5yo) - ESM XI : 0 selections / No
Do note that ESM teams only take into account club football and not national teams as far as I'm aware.
To the point of comparing performances or, at least, the perception of their performances and standing relative to their peers, here's some sources that might provide useful indicators:
Ballon d'Or ranking - n° of points - n° of votes
Messi
BdO 2005 : #N/A - N/A - N/A (18,5yo)
BdO 2006 : #20 - 2 pts - 1 vote (19,5yo)
BdO 2007 : #3 - 255 pts - 79 votes (20,5yo)
BdO 2008 : #2 - 281 pts - 90 votes (21,5yo)
BdO 2009 : #1 - 473 pts - 96 votes (22,5yo)
Mbappé
BdO 2016 : #N/A - N/A - N/A (18yo)
BdO 2017 : #7 - 48 pts - 25 votes (19yo)
BdO 2018 : #4 - 347 pts - 113 votes (20yo)
BdO 2019 : #6 - 89 pts - 42 votes (21yo)
BdO 2020 : award cancelled (Lewandowski probably would've won fairly unanimously; Mbappé anywhere from #2 to #5 probably?) (22yo)
Number of selections in European Sports Media team of the month / Included in ESM team of the season?
Messi
2004/05 (17yo) - ESM XI : 0 selections / No
2005/06 (18yo) - ESM XI : 3 selections / Yes
2006/07 (19yo) - ESM XI : 2 selections / No
2007/08 (20yo) - ESM XI : 4 selections / Yes
2008/09 (21yo) - ESM XI : 6 selections / Yes
Mbappé
2015/16 (17,5yo) - ESM XI : 0 selections / No
2016/17 (18,5yo) - ESM XI : 2 selections / No
2017/18 (19,5yo) - ESM XI : 0 selections / No
2018/19 (20,5yo) - ESM XI : 2 selections / No
2019/20 (21,5yo) - ESM XI : 0 selections / No
Do note that ESM teams only take into account club football and not national teams as far as I'm aware.
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Messi is and was the better player, I'll say it for you.
If the eye test tells you Ben Arfa is a better dribbler than Messi, you should stick with stats
Messi is easily the best dribbler of his generation, including Neymar and Hazard, and arguably the best dribbler in history. Nothing to do with best player bias or anything like that. Messi's anticipation, close control, balance, upper body strength, reactions etc. are second to none. And not only that, he does all that with purpose and not as a means in itself. In both "dribbling technique" and "dribbling decision making" (when to dribble, when to release the ball, which lanes, position, etc.) he clearly outperforms everybody else bar very few. he is indeedWhat a roller coaster of a thread. Mbappé went from Ballon d’Or potential candidate, to trash diva at the Euro, to Messi comparisons now. That’s impressive.
Wait…should we have been trying to find the new Ben Arfa all along?
Mocking Mbappe for his euro is fair but at the same age Messi had 0 goals in 5 games at WC 2010.
And Argentina scored 9 goals at that competition, Higuain got 4 of them
And Argentina scored 9 goals at that competition, Higuain got 4 of them
Higuain got a hat trick against South Korea in the group stage, and I’d recommend watching the highlights of that game.
This is the problem with boiling games down to goals.
And Messi couldnt get a single one against South Korea.
Higuain has more goals in WC k.o stage than Messi does anyway.
My point wasn’t that because it South Korea the goals weren’t worthy, it was that goals don’t tell the whole picture. Messi created all 4 goals (third pass for the last one), playing in a number 10 role where he was excellent and consistently created chances throughout the game.
That’s why it’s pointless to boil everything down to goals, it ignores what role they’re playing within the team, and even the actual performance itself.
You can say this until you’re blue in the face, people who don’t understand football won’t get it.
People like him probably think it shouldn’t be called ‘the Matthews final’ because Matthews didn’t score a goal and Mortensen scored a hat-trick.
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Don’t you think arrogance based on football knowledge and understanding is a bit…absurd? Arrogance in relation to any topic is generally considered unpleasant, but sometimes understandable when it comes to serious topics and real expertise…but for something as simple as football, among footy fans? That’s comical. It’s as if you see it as a status symbol. If you don’t believe people are worthy of your pearls of football wisdom, aren’t you better off not discussing it at all, rather than resorting to condescending comments spread far and wide?
So basically Higuan > Messi . Thats your entire logic.
Mbappe at 22 is probably a top 20 player in the world. Messi was the best, and already a GOAT candidate. At 18 he was wrecking Mourinho's Chelsea a new one on both CL ties, giving MOTM performances trough all season in important matches. Cant believe im even arguing about this.
Lets compare Mbappe to players 2 or 3 tiers below Messi please. He has a long way till he reaches Henry's level but at least thatd be a more sensible comparison, cant we debate that instead?
As an 18 year old Messi always looked dangerous - a proper talent, best since Ronaldo (real) whereas Mbappe always looks hit or miss. Thesedsays fans, fanboys, Ronaldo and Messi groupies only look at stats. The game isn't American, keep your stats for the NFL and the likes of moneyball. Anyway, it's the perfect time to be an attacker, just like in cricket (a game you can play for 10 days and still not get a result) it's a batsmen's world, I hate it but people want to see goals in football and runs in cricket. I wonder how darts has changed? Bigger circle board thingys? Heat seeking darts??
Top 20?
A player who scored 42 goals and got 11 assists in 48 games is top 20?
Hat trick at the Camp Nou, brace at the Allianz Arena, that's a top 20 player for you?
Mbappe at 18 : 6 goals in 6 games vs City,Dortmund,Juventus, and I'm supposed to be impressed by Messi against Chelsea?
Mbappe is already on Henry's level, Henry has absolutely never had a better tournament for France than Mbappe did in 2018 and he's never had a better CL season than Mbappe just did in 2021.
You need to take off the nostalgia goggles this is getting ridiculous.
For what's its worth I've only read the last two pages and you've made the best and most convincing arguments. I agree with your conclusions as well.
Yeah, top 20 on current form. I didnt say he wasnt top 10, im just saying there are many good players on that list that you can make an argument for
Strikers alone id take Haaland, Lewandowski, Harry Kane, Cristiano, Benzema. Thats 5 strikers alone that i consider better than Mbappe at current form. Not even taking into consideration other positions.
They need to recourse to Messi to criticise Mbappe. It speaks volume
After @Cal? & Cristiano, we now have @BalanceUnAutreJoint & Kylian. I am unsure about the best ambassador of Messi and Haaland on redcafe.
I think I just need to go for the posters that post the more in the dedicated threads.
I think I just need to go for the posters that post the more in the dedicated threads.
Never knew Ben Arfa had an account here
Please do me a big favour and go and harangue somebody else. Thanks
I thought @BalanceUnAutreJoint was a pro-anything French guy but now that he’s dissing Henry, it seems clear that he’s just an Mbappe guy. Mbappe is great but this dude is going to extremes…..
Says a Pep and Messi grouppie
A: Learn how to spell ‘groupie’
B: I don’t think Messi is the greatest player of all time nor Pep the greatest manager of all time so try and obsess over my posts a bit more thoroughly next time, you might come to more accurate conclusions.
Take it current form equates to only the euros.
As stats don't show the whole picture, having a good start isn't an indicator you will progress in the same way all your carreer. We've seen many players who are really good in their first years, but they don't ever progress as they should or we expect.
I mean, Mbappé could have a serious injury and never recover his speed, one of his most influencial caracteristic for his style of play. Could he do a Ronaldo? That would change his game drastically.
Mentioning that, we've been very lucky with CR and Messi. No serious injury trough their carrers.
I mean, Mbappé could have a serious injury and never recover his speed, one of his most influencial caracteristic for his style of play. Could he do a Ronaldo? That would change his game drastically.
Mentioning that, we've been very lucky with CR and Messi. No serious injury trough their carrers.
Did you actually see that Chelsea team? They were one of the best defenses ever. The season before that they conceded only 16 goals in a whole fecking league season.
You know you're losing a debate when the spelling Nazi comes out!