Nope, imo you're still wrong.
This has nothing to do with race and that should never have been brought up as an excuse.
He should be prosecuted and given an appropriate punishment (suspended sentence + fine + community service would do it for me).
Kurt Zouma / 180 hours community service + banned from keeping cats for 5 years
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran are here to talk about a frustrating 2 points dropped at Crystal Palace. They then discuss the regeneration of Old Trafford. Finally, Nik is joined by special guest Michael Statham from the Football Oranje podcast - who gives us a more in depth look at our EL opposition FC Twente, and then runs through the (many) Dutch connections currently at United.
This has nothing to do with race and that should never have been brought up as an excuse.
He should be prosecuted and given an appropriate punishment (suspended sentence + fine + community service would do it for me).
Has nothing to do with free speech and I only pointed out historical and cultural reasons why his opinion isn't that bad of a take. Never said I believe the same, just that his opinion doesn't need to be shouted down and sanctioned. It's a private message board so the mods can do as they please, but I reserve the right to not agree.
Antonio most likely used race because it's simply something he can relate too. Same as any PoC.
I agree with the gist of your post, though I also agree with Kick it Out saying Antonio's comments are not especially helpful. I'm not sure why racism needs entering into the discussion - it just muddies the waters and, even if not intended to be, ends up looking like a deflection. I'd also say that if Antonio had compared the vitriol towards Zouma with a different crime rather than racism.
The fact is, we are going to (as a general public), emotionally react to and outcry over animal abuse more strongly because so many more of us can relate to it and personally connect to the wrongdoing. Something like 60% of households have a pet - that a very significant proportion. While it is abhorrent on every level, racism is just not going to incite the same response nationally as 86% of residents in this country are White British. The vast majority of us just cannot relate. I suppose that can be extended to other crimes that perhaps we should be more up in arms about, but often aren't because we struggle to comprehend or relate to it. The exception being when it is a crime involving a child (for obvious reasons).
Certainly Sterling has received absurd abuse from the rags - that’s true but I don’t think one can come it to this. This is very emotive for a lot of people. People would have had the same, horrified reaction if it was McTominay for instance — I’m sure of it.
Woman was sacked not so long ago for punching her horse. Again, I feel like UK are obsessed with pets and that’s why everyone is as worked up about it.
Do you really need this to be spelt out to you?
Really? BLM? Demostrations? This is nowhere near what people have done or trying to do against racism.
Why did he mention racism at all? Why not climate change? Gender equality? Social equality for sick and poor? Childrens rights? Poor countrys. And so on. Things that are less talked about than racism.
You are entitled to your opinion, but domesticated animals are property (not people) that are bought, sold, and many times discarded. A person can have an emotional connection to property and still treat it just like it's property (which most do).
Race wasn't brought up as an excuse for his actions but keep hammering home that imaginary talking point.
I'm not going to argue with punishment he should get, but it's pretty clear he has NOT gotten away with this and has paid a heavy price. IMO a lot of you are just reinforcing the idea that this moved from genuine concern for the animal to a media overreaction.
I'd wager most black people have the same reaction as Antonio. The ones on my end at least, simultaneously condemn what Zouma did, and are wondering where all this fuss was when... You know what never mind
I actually agree. I already said before Western culture has an adoration for pets that isn't standard in other cultures. However, given the racist sterotypes of black people that exist in media it's not crazy to wonder if the reaction would have been this vitriolic if the Zouma wasn't black. Even so, I would say that race minor factor at best in the backlash.
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I've just got absolutely lost in this thread I certainly was not expecting public outrage at someone being violent towards a cat to be put down to racism, and then that car crash of Antonio's interview.... what a weird 20 minutes of my life that was.
I certainly was not expecting public outrage at someone being violent towards a cat to be put down to racism, and then that car crash of Antonio's interview.... what a weird 20 minutes of my life that was.That's up to a court. The point was that it is rightly considered criminal behaviour nowadays, so calling for his dismissal and some form of justice isn't an overreaction, it's a logical response.
What I meant is that I'm for free speech and no suspension but I was little but confussed why he brought up color or race in something that has nothing to do with it. Zouma is not getting any criticism for being black, white or whatever color he is. He is getting criticism for behaving very bad.
I'm sorry but I don't buy it with Antonio. He clearly lost his mind and tried to defuse this by putting more fire on one issue that is totaly different. He just come across like guy who rather talks about racism than animal abuse because he he doesn't care about animals. If so, that is perfectly fine as long as he is fine with people saying racism is not as bad as climate change or gender equality.
I'm in group chat with some friends who are black and happen to own pets and after posting them all the background links, they don't understand why it's a big deal if he's been punished and his cats taken away. However they aren't shocked (we lived through Michael Vick), b/c we all realize how much people love pets, and of course without fail they juxtapose it with the treatment of the poor and PoC.
It's one of those "Chadwick Boseman looking back towards the camera" moments. If you get it you get it, and it's no surprise that a lot of people won't, and you see accusations of "the race card" or "deflecting from the issue" (as if this is an issue that can be deflected from on an internet board
)Edit: said gif
I never said otherwise. The question is about how over the top it is.
You are also entitled to your opinion but I don't understand how this is relevant. If you don't buy that a black man will draw on personal experiences (ie. racism) to make a point, I don't know what to tell you.
That gif sums up the reaction of black people I know. The ironic thing is a lot of people argue that racism is still a problem, needs to be eradicated, is systematic and pervasive, yet it seems the only acceptable times to discuss race are when it involves the lowest of hanging fruit (ie. a clearly racist action), so that everyone can easily show that their against racism w/o thinking too hard about it (i.e. virtue signaling).It's one of those "Chadwick Boseman looking back towards the camera" moments. If you get it you get it, and it's no surprise that a lot of people won't, and you see accusations of "the race card" or "deflecting from the issue" (as if this is an issue that can be deflected from on an internet board
Edit: said gif
I usually decent at steering clear of these icebergs, but anytime I do I regret it, because it just shows the lack of understanding and regard Western society has for nuanced discussions about race.
Lots of vegans in this thread!
Or maybe we discuss it when it’s actually Errm relevant? This is a thread about someone kicking a cat.That gif sums up the reaction of black people I know. The ironic thing is a lot of people argue that racism is still a problem, needs to be eradicated, is systematic and pervasive, yet it seems the only acceptable times to discuss race are when it involves the lowest of hanging fruit (ie. a clearly racist action), so that everyone can easily show that their against racism w/o thinking too hard about it (i.e. virtue signaling).
I usually decent at steering clear of these icebergs, but anytime I do I regret it, because it just shows the lack of understanding and regard Western society has for nuanced discussions about race.
That gif sums up the reaction of black people I know. The ironic thing is a lot of people argue that racism is still a problem, needs to be eradicated, is systematic and pervasive, yet it seems the only acceptable times to discuss race are when it involves the lowest of hanging fruit (ie. a clearly racist action), so that everyone can easily show that their against racism w/o thinking too hard about it (i.e. virtue signaling).
I usually decent at steering clear of these icebergs, but anytime I do I regret it, because it just shows the lack of understanding and regard Western society has for nuanced discussions about race.
Dude, this thread is to discuss Zouma abusing his cat, somehow you and the other guy managed to move the discussion away from the topic, and shift it to racism.
Mission accomplished, i guess.
A WHITE woman was filmed hitting a horse recently. The public outcry was the same. People rightly saw it as despicable behaviour. She lost her teaching job.
Was it racism that caused the public to act so furiously?
It seems to me that we are heading down a path where black people cannot be criticised without it being deemed racism.
How many more times/ways do we need to hear what he did was abhorrent and needs to be punished? What gets impacted in the real world if the conversation drifts?
This entire story is begging for a segment on someone's comedy special
Over the top or not is something that is individual. It is not about race, not about colour, religion, gender or how you look like. He didn't even got suspended. For me, that is not over the top.
I don't understand. I don't understand why a black man would right away point to the race when thi is about animal abuse. If we were living 50, 100 or more years back I could understand him being angry but we live in 2022 where people insult and abuse eachother without race och colour being involved. Also, racism is not something that affects only people of specific colour. You can find racist people from every side.
Word
Thank you! They are indeed!
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It's one of those "Chadwick Boseman looking back towards the camera" moments. If you get it you get it, and it's no surprise that a lot of people won't, and you see accusations of "the race card" or "deflecting from the issue" (as if this is an issue that can be deflected from on an internet board
Edit: said gif
You should listen to the entirety of what Antonio said, but at this point I don't care anymore to repeat myself. I've already condemned what he did, said I like pets, and stated that I don't think race is the main reason. The bolded is another example of why it's damn near impossible to have these debates. Racism isn't just about abuse, but I'm done derailing this thread.
No, you just can't fathom how much of widespread racism can be in the lives of PoC, that you think bring up race automatically qualifies as an accusation of racism. Instead of measured responses (which can be critical) all I've gotten are mischaracterizations and straw man arguments.
"Playing the race card"
"Making excuses for him because of his race"
"Downplaying violence/rape/abuse"
These aren't response that deserve any real dialog, when there hasn't been any clear accusation of racism, but this how we conditioned to talk about racism. Black and white with no room for nuance. Let me point out that I never definitively said it's due to race, but I did give reasons why some think the overreaction MAY be due to race. That's it.
Antonio is a fecking idiot too.
They're separate incidents, why is he linking them?
They're separate incidents, why is he linking them?
I think it would helpful to point out that @MackRobinson didn't actually agree with the OP about the claim that Zouma is getting all this outrage because he's black. That seems to be the main charge thrown at him based on the responses he's getting.
Awful awful thread. Candidate for worst thread in 2022.
One idiot abused cat. Instead talking about problem of animal abuse in society, WH reaction, FA, Uefa, Zouma, his brother etc....few people made this whole thread about racism. Nice job guys. Can you now get the feck off from this thread and let us, who actually care for this topic, to talk about it?
One idiot abused cat. Instead talking about problem of animal abuse in society, WH reaction, FA, Uefa, Zouma, his brother etc....few people made this whole thread about racism. Nice job guys. Can you now get the feck off from this thread and let us, who actually care for this topic, to talk about it?
As of now, Zouma has apologized for his terrible actions, WH has fined him 250K, Adidas cancelled his sponsorship deal, and RCPCA took custody of the cats.
so is this enough? or should there be further actions taken against Zouma, like sacking? banning?
so is this enough? or should there be further actions taken against Zouma, like sacking? banning?
I personally like defenestration into a pit of hungry Siberian tigers
All this energy for Antonio who was simply using punishments for racism as a barometer, yet nothing said about Chris Kirkland who was the one who initially compared the two, unprovoked.
Bro ...It's one of those "Chadwick Boseman looking back towards the camera" moments. If you get it you get it, and it's no surprise that a lot of people won't, and you see accusations of "the race card" or "deflecting from the issue" (as if this is an issue that can be deflected from on an internet board
Edit: said gif
Can't post images yet
Redcafe never fails to surprise/disappoint me when it comes to race discussion
Yes, I agree with everything you wrote. It's not that people are racist, it just doesn't affect them the same because as you said, you can be as empathetic as you want to be, it's far harder to truly relate to racism and all that it implies than to see a helpless animal getting abused. There are certain things we all do that we might not realize contributes to racism. But that's why I think it's always good to put things in perspective as Antonio did. Some might see it as whataboutism, and it is kind of, but sometimes I think it's effective, and here we are having a discussion about it.
Because people only care about the issues that affect them first before making space for other things, even though we can all probably agree something like climate change could very well affect all of us far more than anything else but until we start having sea turtles swimming around in our living room, it doesn't hit the same, and racism is the same.
It's similar to how Lebron James took such a big stance on BLM but was completely silent and even attacked someone who brought up the treatment of Uyghurs in China. We're all hypocrites in some way and Antonio is no different, but I much prefer hearing athletes making statements that put things in perspective than a rehearsed response crafted by the PR team that brings absolutely nothing to the conversation.
The key phrase here is "at best" but it doesn't matter at this point. Selective reading is much easier to respond to.