Kurt Zouma / 180 hours community service + banned from keeping cats for 5 years

Mogget said:
As a non-white person I look at the gleeful reaction on social media when a boat full of asylum seekers dies, and then I compare it to the reaction on social media when a footballer kicks a cat. It does make you wonder about your place in society and how you're viewed.
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Well, I mean, only one of those situations has a direct offender so they are not really comparable. I can assure you the reactions would be tenfold if someone were to be found capsizing the boats.

It's unbelievable and quite frankly sickening that people are even defending this. He's both crossing the physical boundary and he's mistreating someone he's supposed to be caring for.

Even though the comparisons are absurd to begin with, it's actually much worse than racism. It's akin to kicking a baby around.
 
I dont understand why racism is being brought into this. Who (celebrity or sportsperson) has been caught on tape as being blatantly racist and got away with it? Bringing racism is just deflecting the issue here.
 
I think the issue of racism is very similar to demand and supply economics. Just like price decreasing when supply exceeds demand to create a surplus, the actual serious issues related to racism are diluted when people make every single thing about it. It is absolutely ridiculous that criticising Zouma for literally abusing a defenceless cat while sadistically laughing is now seen as borderline racial abuse. You’ve even got idiots with a reasonable following on Twitter saying “I stand with Kurt Zouma”.

For me, criticising him is fair game. In fact, it should be the normal moral compass of any human being. As far as I’m aware, no one has racially abused him, and it goes without saying that no one should do so, because being an animal abuser has nothing to do with skin colour, and nor does any other crime. Does he deserve the £250,000 fine, his cats being seized and his Adidas deal taken away from him? 110%. Did Suarez deserve bigger recriminations for the Evra incident? Of course he did. Did Hazard for the ballboy thing? Of course as well. Someone like Mason Greenwood or Benjamin Mendy should be locked up and have the keys thrown away.

However, all these are completely different incidents, and should not be compared. Since people are so desperate to bring racism into it though, I’ll just say this: I’m Chinese, an ethnic minority in Malaysia. I live in England, where I can hand on heart say that the majority of you are absolutely wonderful and probably better than at home, but I have been discriminated against too, directly and indirectly. I know what it feels like, but if someone asked me whether I’d rather be racially abused tomorrow or see a harmless animal get kicked and slapped, I’d pick the former option all day long.
 
alexthelion said:
Is it really over the top? No, imo, this country is full of animal lovers, it's not their fault that poc don't get this.

Vitriol, in the past, has been directed at white people just as much as Zouma, so to say it's because he's black is total bollocks. It's people trying to deflect from the cruelty directed at the poor cat.
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Yes, it is over the top and I totally get. I currently live and lived in cities absolutely obsessed with pets. I like my pets myself (cats more so than dogs).

And for the 100th time I never said it's because he's black and condemned what he did.

alexthelion said:
It shouldn't have even been mentioned in this thread, let alone someone outright saying that's the reason for the outrage.

Poc can do bad things as well as white a should be called out on it when they do.
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There is nothing wrong with mentioning it in this thread. It's the feigned outrage at bringing up race that derailed the thread.

The bolded is completely irrelevant and not what anyone is arguing. These straw man arguments are tiring.
 
This thread is getting locked and rightly so.
Most important thing is they've taken the cats away from him.
 
adexkola said:
And we just want to thank you for your benevolence, and your service...
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You do realise that your actions in this thread are doing nothing more than devaluing and diluting the truly serious issues related to racism? Why not give the Boris or Trump thread a bump rather than crying at every comment?
 
MalaysianRed7 said:
You do realise that your actions in this thread are doing nothing more than devaluing and diluting the truly serious issues related to racism? Why not give the Boris or Trump thread a bump rather than crying at every comment?
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Oh gosh no, wouldn't be caught dead in those threads

Also, I'm humble enough to recognize my "actions" in this thread do the square root of feck all to any issue unfortunate enough to experience my inane commentary
 
I barely get involved in threads like these but it feels like there's an absolute boatload of strawmanning going on here. Zouma's actions were deplorable and have been rightly condemed by the general public, hopefully he will be punished accordingly.

The point that Antonio made absolutely was whataboutism at it's finest, but that doesn't mean it loses it's relevancy. He's a black man being being asked in an interview about whether Zouma should lose his job... By the same media outlet that threw up an article three weeks ago celebrating Luis Suarez's best PL goals.

I'm not seeing many people here (at least in the most recent pages) saying that Zouma's actions shouldn't be condemed because he's black, but rather touching on the disproportionate reaction as pointed out by Antonio. Unfortunately posts on here talking about 'race cards' and such only serve to prove how much society isn't ready for the discourse.

Black, white or otherwise - Zouma should absolutely be punished for his actions. Antonio has absolutely muddied the waters a little with his response, but as I black man myself I can't say I necessarily blame him.
 
MalaysianRed7 said:
Are you not answering because you have no answer? Also, the irony of this snarky reply when he’s also asking you a question.
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Just because someone asks me something doesn't mean I have to answer them. Especially when the point I replied to was talking about racism, so why on earth would my question have anything to do with animal cruelty when I replied to something about racism.
 
Relevated said:
Just because someone asks me something doesn't mean I have to answer them. Especially when the point I replied to was talking about racism, so why on earth would my question have anything to do with animal cruelty when I replied to something about racism.
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Why does it matter what Paxi's skin colour is though?
 
adexkola said:
How many more times/ways do we need to hear what he did was abhorrent and needs to be punished? What gets impacted in the real world if the conversation drifts?

This entire story is begging for a segment on someone's comedy special
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At this rate it's more likely that we get a special about how a racist cat tricked Kurt Zouma into adopting and subsequently beating it, just to land him in this completely unfortunate situation.

Nice that you see the comedy in it all I suppose. Zouma sure did in his 'special'.
 
Relevated said:
Just because someone asks me something doesn't mean I have to answer them. Especially when the point I replied to was talking about racism, so why on earth would my question have anything to do with animal cruelty when I replied to something about racism.
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Sums this thread up. Why would it have anything to do with *insert thread topic* :lol: FFS
 
Zouma was in a happy, jovial mood when he kicked and slapped his cats. Can you imagine what he would be like after a bad loss at work/WH or in a crappy mood?
 
This thread brings the worst side of posters. Who would have thought of that.
 
Conor said:
It's a forum, questioning why a group of people bring something up constantly is a pretty solid indicator that you don't understand the issues they face when it comes to that topic.
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What has race got to do with animal cruelty?
 
alexthelion said:
What has race got to do with animal cruelty?
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Ask that foolish ex Liverpool keeper Kirkland. It started with him but he pretty much just confirmed what a lot of black people thought underneath anyway.

So that’s why we non have this current situation. I wish people would just take a moment and think before they speak. Words are free but they aren’t cheap.
 
I'm Jamaican, Antonio is a reggae boy and his response was mentioned on the local news here. Obviously this is a majority black country and I can say most here (at least from what I've seen ) think the response/ reaction has been over the top when compared to certain responses /reactions when it came to racist actions in football.

I can understand why some feel what Antonio is a whataboutism.

I can also understand why some are trying to show a nuanced approach to a larger point. A point that is... ok yes , he deserves all that energy you giving him for kicking A cat but you know what, we wish some of that energy also came to black folk that deal with racism every day.

I also understand that most of the UK doesn't really get racism as a black person would.

Lord knows I don't get the huge animal culture thing that seems to be predominant in UK and other first world countries. I just haven't lived that experience, just as maybe a white person hasn't lived a day in a black mans life and don't understand why alot of black people kinda roll their eyes at the response happening.

Just something I thought I would share.


Ps... Based on my understanding of the British culture I think the punishment zouma got was fair and I think if it was Harry Kane the response would have been even more severe. But I don't think what Antonio was saying was about zouma being black...as some of you have been trying to explain...it's about the response to animal abuse Vs response to racism .
 
ChaddyP said:
I'm Jamaican, Antonio is a reggae boy and his response was mentioned on the local news here. Obviously this is a majority black country and I can say most here (at least from what I've seen ) think the response/ reaction has been over the top when compared to certain responses /reactions when it came to racist actions in football.

I can understand why some feel what Antonio is a whataboutism.

I can also understand why some are trying to show a nuanced approach to a larger point. A point that is... ok yes , he deserves all that energy you giving him for kicking A cat but you know what, we wish some of that energy also came to black folk that deal with racism every day.

I also understand that most of the UK doesn't really get racism as a black person would.

Lord knows I don't get the huge animal culture thing that seems to be predominant in UK and other first world countries. I just haven't lived that experience, just as maybe a white person hasn't lived a day in a black mans life and don't understand why alot of black people kinda roll their eyes at the response happening.

Just something I thought I would share.


Ps... Based on my understanding of the British culture I think the punishment zouma got was fair and I think if it was Harry Kane the response would have been even more severe. But I don't think what Antonio was saying was about zouma being black...as some of you have been trying to explain...it's about the response to animal abuse Vs response to racism .
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To be fair, animal abuse is also an everyday thing. I think it's a viscious circle to bemoan one cause due to your preferred one not getting the attention. That way you'd have been bemoaning sexual violence not getting enough attention when discussing racism. And others bemoaning terrorism not getting enough attention when discussing sexual violence. Sure, one can do it to beat their agenda drum, it's their right. But it seems to be a sign of a lack of unison really and in a way becomes an attempt to belittle another cause in favour of your own.
 
ChaddyP said:
I'm Jamaican, Antonio is a reggae boy and his response was mentioned on the local news here. Obviously this is a majority black country and I can say most here (at least from what I've seen ) think the response/ reaction has been over the top when compared to certain responses /reactions when it came to racist actions in football.

I can understand why some feel what Antonio is a whataboutism.

I can also understand why some are trying to show a nuanced approach to a larger point. A point that is... ok yes , he deserves all that energy you giving him for kicking A cat but you know what, we wish some of that energy also came to black folk that deal with racism every day.

I also understand that most of the UK doesn't really get racism as a black person would.

Lord knows I don't get the huge animal culture thing that seems to be predominant in UK and other first world countries. I just haven't lived that experience, just as maybe a white person hasn't lived a day in a black mans life and don't understand why alot of black people kinda roll their eyes at the response happening.

Just something I thought I would share.


Ps... Based on my understanding of the British culture I think the punishment zouma got was fair and I think if it was Harry Kane the response would have been even more severe. But I don't think what Antonio was saying was about zouma being black...as some of you have been trying to explain...it's about the response to animal abuse Vs response to racism .
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There are millions of black people in the UK though? This part seems odd to me. Classism is a far greater issue than racism in the UK, poor people are treated like dirt regardless of colour here. However, classism also isn't relevant so I'm not going to dive into it here, just as racism isn't relevant to this Zouma situation. I do agree with you that Kane would have had a greater backlash, I actually think the more prominent the figure, the greater the backlash as the worry is setting a bad example to a wide audience of young people that look up to these players.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
To be fair, animal abuse is also an everyday thing. I think it's a viscious circle to bemoan one cause due to your preferred one not getting the attention. That way you'd have been bemoaning sexual violence not getting enough attention when discussing racism. And others bemoaning terrorism not getting enough attention when discussing sexual violence. Sure, one can do it to beat their agenda drum, it's their right. But it seems to be a sign of a lack of unison really and in a way becomes an attempt to belittle another cause in favour of your own.
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I can't disagree with what you have said. I just can understand where Antonio is coming from. I can also understand where others that absolutely love animals and are passionate about animal abuse feel like what Antonio said is not appropriate for what's happened.
 
ChaddyP said:
I can't disagree with what you have said. I just can understand where Antonio is coming from. I can also understand where others that absolutely love animals and are passionate about animal abuse feel like what Antonio said is not appropriate for what's happened.
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They are apples and oranges with the only commonality being violence or physical/emotional abuse.
 
MichaelRed said:
There are millions of black people in the UK though? This part seems odd to me. Classism is a far greater issue than racism in the UK, poor people are treated like dirt regardless of colour here. However, classism also isn't relevant so I'm not going to dive into it here, just as racism isn't relevant to this Zouma situation. I do agree with you that Kane would have had a greater backlash, I actually think the more prominent the figure, the greater the backlash as the worry is setting a bad example to a wide audience of young people that look up to these players.
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I'm pretty sure there are less than 2 million people that identify as black within England most of which are probably in London. That's a small amount compared to the countries population that , well at least from my eyes seems predominantly white. Which is why I said most of the citizens wouldn't get racism like a black man would. How could They?

I myself find certain lived experiences of black people in the USA unrelatable as life in a predominantly black country is different to growing up in the usa. I find it hard to relate to what they are saying and I certainly don't see why it would be much different for majority of the UK to not be able to really understand racism through the lens of someone like say Antonio.

That's just a thought anyway. You're welcome to critique it.
 
ChaddyP said:
I'm pretty sure there are less than 2 million people that identify as black within England most of which are probably in London. That's a small amount compared to the countries population that , well at least from my eyes seems predominantly white. Which is why I said most of the citizens wouldn't get racism like a black man would. How could They?

I myself find certain lived experiences of black people in the USA unrelatable as life in a predominantly black country is different to growing up in the usa. I find it hard to relate to what they are saying and I certainly don't see why it would be much different for majority of the UK to not be able to really understand racism through the lens of someone like say Antonio.

That's just a thought anyway. You're welcome to critique it.
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The UK has lots of people of different colours though, so even if your figures are correct about 2 million black people, that doesn't mean that only 2 million people in the UK understand racism. The idea that only black people 'get' racism is archaic nonsense. Race, class, location, time-period & many other factors all impact on an individuals experience of racism.
 
MichaelRed said:
The UK has lots of people of different colours though, so even if your figures are correct about 2 million black people, that doesn't mean that only 2 million people in the UK understand racism. The idea that only black people 'get' racism is archaic nonsense. Race, class, location, time-period & many other factors all impact on an individuals experience of racism.
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I actually didn't say that. I said that most won't see racism through the eyes of Someone like Antonio. I for sure don't but I'm also willing to learn.
 
ChaddyP said:
I actually didn't say that. I said that most won't see racism through the eyes of Someone like Antonio. I for sure don't but I'm also willing to learn.
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What makes you think Antonio has any kind of extra level of enlightenment that you don't already have yourself?
 
MichaelRed said:
What makes you think Antonio has any kind of extra level of enlightenment that you don't already have yourself?
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I didn't say he has some extra enlightenment, I said he sees things differently than most. For one I didn't think about his point till he mentioned it. I didn't even cross my mind . Which shows that he sees things differently than I would have. I didn't really think of his points where as for him it's directly on his mind.


Edit :


He clearly feels that response to racism doesn't compare to the response to animal abuse and clearly that bothers him. Bothers him more than it bothers others in here and that's all he seems to be trying to say.
 
ChaddyP said:
I didn't say he has some extra enlightenment, I said he sees things differently than most. For one I didn't think about his point till he mentioned it. I didn't even cross my mind . Which shows that he sees things differently than I would have. I didn't really think of his points where as for him it's directly on his mind.
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Ok but you said you could learn from him. I just wonder what makes you think this? He's from a posh area in London, grew up wealthier than 95% of the nation, was in the system of football from age 12, is a multi-millionaire & has all the opportunity in the world. The worst kind of racism, in my opinion, is systematic racism that shuts down opportunites for minorities & pushes them into a lifestyle that they're then condemned for. Antonio will have experienced absolutely zero of this & probably has less of a grasp of racsim than you'll already have. Just because racism was on his mind doesn't mean he wasn't incredibly misguided in trying to bring race into the conversation about his teammate's cruelty to an animal. If McDonald's had been on his mind & he whipped out a "yeah, Zouma abused his cat and all but what about the rising price of the Big Mac?", that would have had just as little relevance as the comment he actually made.
 
I’m not a fan of equivocation in moments like these because it causes the discourse to venture further from the actual issues.

It’s now become the discrimination olympics when infact kicking a cat is a fecking vile thing to do & racism is too. This isn’t an either or argument, as far as the game is concerned they should do better on both fronts.

I get what Antonio was saying, I just knew the second he did it wouldn’t actually raise awareness but subvert from the issues at hand. This thread is a prime example, we’ve got people whitesplaining to Michael Antonio about racism.
 
MichaelRed said:
Ok but you said you could learn from him. I just wonder what makes you think this? He's from a posh area in London, grew up wealthier than 95% of the nation, was in the system of football from age 12, is a multi-millionaire & has all the opportunity in the world. The worst kind of racism, in my opinion, is systematic racism that shuts down opportunites for minorities & pushes them into a lifestyle that they're then condemned for. Antonio will have experienced absolutely zero of this & probably has less of a grasp of racsim than you'll already have. Just because racism was on his mind doesn't mean he wasn't incredibly misguided in trying to bring race into the conversation about his teammate's cruelty to an animal. If McDonald's had been on his mind & he whipped out a "yeah, Zouma abused his cat and all but what about the rising price of the Big Mac?", that would have had just as little relevance as the comment he actually made.
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Him growing up in a posh area in London doesn't really have much to do with what I've said. He is still a black man living in a predominantly non black country. While I live in a predominantly black country. My experiences are completely different to his matter how rich or poor he is. It's always gonna be different . I've come to learn this a very long time ago. I can learn alot from people like him.


And It still stands in my view that there are alot of people that don't see race the way someone like he would and instead of calling him a dick head maybe , just maybe there's something in what he's said. We may eventually not agree with it. But I don't exactly see what he said as completely bonkers.


Re your big Mac argument... I think if you had asked someone that was more passionate about say climate change or human rights abuse they probably might have said...yeh kicking the cat is awful but where's your energy when peoplr are being murdered in the streets in *insert name here *

And I honestly couldn't have much to say to that either
 
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