Agreed. Would be nice if we could have discussions about race without putting our fingers in our ears and yelling "LALA"
Kurt Zouma / 180 hours community service + banned from keeping cats for 5 years
- Thread starter MyOnlySolskjaer
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran are here to talk about a frustrating 2 points dropped at Crystal Palace. They then discuss the regeneration of Old Trafford. Finally, Nik is joined by special guest Michael Statham from the Football Oranje podcast - who gives us a more in depth look at our EL opposition FC Twente, and then runs through the (many) Dutch connections currently at United.
Maybe now you'll be able to see what it's got to do with it. The punishment and backlash that Zouma is facing is nowhere near the backlash for a non-black player hence why I mentioned if only everyone would be treated the same when committing abuse regardless of skin colour.
Nobody in this thread is defending Zouma's actions but the relative backlash faced by Zouma is not proportionate to what other players, i.e Terry, Suarez, Alonso and Maguire have faced.
You think bloke on a night out fighting with police officers should garner the same level of outrage and sympathy for the victim (police) as people accused of racism, sexual assault or animal abuse?
If we're going to compare random incidents: Cavani was banned for 3 matches for what was acknowledged as a completely unintentional use of racism. So far Zouma hasn't been banned for any games for deliberate animal abuse. In the completely random comparison game, isn't that double standards in favour of Zouma?
I think it is entirely understandable that the marketing department of one sports company would be comfortable continuing to sponsor a player whose assault and other convictions were nullified after lodging an appeal, especially when the wider journalism around the case raised a number of questions around the original trial and the wider public has yet to see any evidence to sully the player’s public reputation…
… whilst being entirely uncomfortable with the idea of someone else marketing their products, who allowed themselves to be videoed throwing and punting their cat, before slapping and throwing shoes at it.
Okay, so that's my point here - that the reaction to Zuma's misbehavior is similar but not rightly so. It's over the top, strictly in comparison, because while the public reaction to it is akin to the Greenwood, and the other guy situations, the misconduct is not comparable. Zuma's is far less heinous (still inexcusable).
I don't think it's race though. I think Zuma just got caught up in the wave of public resentment.
Serial killers almost always start with animals first. The dude is a straight up psychopath.
So I was right, you've never had a fight with a swan?
Because like the tweet suggested, most of those who suddenly claim to care and jump up at animal abuse contribute to the largest scale animal abuse in living history. Its a moral battle within ourselves. Anyways I think losing sponsorship is appropriate. Hit em financially
No, because being dropped by your sponsors as a footballer is far worse than a 3 match ban. You get a 3 match ban for a slightly bad tackle nowadays.
But no sponsor dropped Cavani or United after his apparent 'racism' so technically you just proved my point.
People aren’t talking about Greenwood as much because there’s a lot more for the police to do, and until that happens we don’t actually know what we are dealing with.
We can all join the dots of claims of abuse by his (ex-)girlfriend, photos of large bruises, and an audio recording of a man (who sounds like Greenwood) threatening to rape a woman, but those dots need to be conclusively strung together by a court before judgement can happen.
If United played Greenwood after any of that evidence came into the public domain, people would rightly be aghast.
Have you actually read KennyBurner's post?
Let me quote it here "What zouma did was terrible but the reaction he is receiving is as a result of him being black."
This poster is saying that people criticising Zouma are doing this because of his race where nothing in this thread suggests that it is the case. I can see that the subject of racism is very important to you and it should be for everybody. But don't you see how arguments like the one used by KennyBurner are detrimental to the cause of eradicating racism from everyday life?
Animal abuse has nothing to do with race. It only shows that people capable of kicking their own pets just for fun are sh** human beings whether they are white or black.
I was one of the people who reported KennyBurner's post as no one should use such arguments in a discussion where there is no indication that race played any part in the outcry.
There are endless discussions of race. And many of them relevant and good to have. It doesn't mean they're relevant to every thread. And what people are saying is that this is about a human abusing an animal. It doesn't matter what colour the abused animal was, and it doesn't matter what colour, or sex, the abuser was.
The debate is about animal cruelty, and how unacceptable it is. Not about opinions on racism or sexism - which are very important subjects in general, but not the issues here.
Regarding Maguire, I don't see a double standard. People care a hell of a lot more about things like racism, sexual abuse and people abusing animals than they do with someone having a drunken ruckus with police on holiday, which is just not an emotive issue.
As mentioned earlier, Terry and Suarez happened 10+ years ago in completely different cultural climate around these issues. I may be wrong but I don't see those situations playing out in the same way today.
I'm just responding to posts like everyone else. I made a post that opined what a poster said about race didn't deserve a strike and responded to posts about that post. Like I said before, I called you a prick for your straw man argument that insinuated I believed racism is worse than rape. And yes, where you are from does matter b/c, for me, it further explains a) why you lack a nuanced understanding of racism in the West and b) why your straw man argument didn't touch a nerve.
I'm sorry, but you don't get to play the victim.
I do agree with your first point, must be the only reason why Maguire didn't get dropped from his sponsorship. Or a literal murderer (Alonso) is allowed to play in the prem. Although I disagree with it, as abuse and assault is the same regardless of whether it is done to a police man or a cat.
Maybe you're right. To be fair there hasn't been many cases of players being racist in the present time, it's more of a fan and social media issue atm.
It all depends on how you interpret punishments, I guess.
Many a time I've heard people dismiss wealthy people getting fines as 'a slap on the wrist', 'a drop in the ocean', etc.
Zouma getting a two week fine is minimal. And he'll get new sponsors when this all blows over, which won't take long as soon as the next footballer, politician, etc, is the headline.
Getting suspended from the club / banned for lengthy amount of games, facing police action, etc, is stronger punishment in my book. And, so far, that hasn't happened to him.
Getting dropped by sponsors and fined is definitely a worse punishment than a 3 match ban as I mentioned before you don't get dropped by your sponsors for a bad tackle or for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity.
Yeah I read it and I don't entirely agree, but I interpreted "reaction" as "level of backlash". Regardless, why should this deserve a sanction? The first thing he said was it's terrible and the second part was his opinion on the reaction. It seems like you're just uncomfortable talking about race in this context, which is fine, but there is nothing inappropriate about what he said.
Like I said before, PoC tend to examine the racial component in stories like this (right or wrong) because it's just the reality they live in. If you don't believe so, then write a measured response or just don't respond. But to mock it, try to shout it down, or sanction a post like that just rubs me the wrong way
The Antonio comments are just bizarre, I can only assume they sounded considerably more profound in his head before he made them.
Thankfully most people on here are decent and sensible and rightly focus on the issue at hand; a person abusing a cat, which is deplorable behaviour.
As for the minority who feel the need to start bringing racism into it, you're part of the problem with this broken society and should take a good hard look at yourselves. It's so unnecessary.
As for the proportion of outrage directed at Zouma in comparison to Suarez, Maguire, or anyone else who has behaved inappropriately, it's a person's perogative to be affected more by animal cruelty than other issues being raised. None of you have any right to tell someone they should care more about X than Y. You're no better than the twitter mob who try to force their way of thinking onto everyone else.
As for the minority who feel the need to start bringing racism into it, you're part of the problem with this broken society and should take a good hard look at yourselves. It's so unnecessary.
As for the proportion of outrage directed at Zouma in comparison to Suarez, Maguire, or anyone else who has behaved inappropriately, it's a person's perogative to be affected more by animal cruelty than other issues being raised. None of you have any right to tell someone they should care more about X than Y. You're no better than the twitter mob who try to force their way of thinking onto everyone else.
I also thought people weren't even allowed to talk about the Greenwood case in the media / social media now the police are involved as it might prejudice the case. Whereas people are free to discuss Zouma because he's, so far, escaped police charges.
So the reason more people are free to openly criticise Zouma than Greenwood at the moment is only because Greenwood is facing legal action and Zouma isn't. Not because people are more outraged by animal abuse than sexual assault. So it's strange that some are interpreting it that way.
What I will say is this: these days people are far more motivated by their personal agenda's than by humanity and what they think is right/wrong.
Btw, remember when SAF said Suarez should never play for Liverpool again and was laughed at by the majority?
Btw, remember when SAF said Suarez should never play for Liverpool again and was laughed at by the majority?
Not sure what Antonio is getting at. Whataboutism isn’t going to make people forget that Zouma punted his cat across the kitchen.
Isn't this more likely to be because Maguire is United's captain and an England player and thus WAY more marketable than Zouma? Doesn't make it right but there are loads of reasons beyond race as to why Maguire didn't get dropped by sponsors. As for the Alonso point, i'm not sure what your point is? Has Zouma been banned from playing in the Prem?
They do realise that the case against Mason Greenwood is not allowed to have widespread coverage.
He doesn’t look the sharpest tool in the box, does he? I was thinking Missing Link.
We need to agree to disagree on this point.
Report button is to flag behaviours like that which without any evidence imply that people criticising a person for kicking his pet are doing this because he is black. Logical conclusion from KennyBurner’s statement is that people who are criticising Zouma for kicking his cat are racists.
I’m lost for words when I see statements like that and will report such behaviour so that the poster thinks twice before posting unsubstantiated drivel.
As sensible people have pointed out, it's a simple deflection tactic. Ultimately he's playing the race card to try and gloss over things, it's disgraceful.
Racism has no place in this discussion. End.
In stories dealing with PoC (especially the rich and famous), there will be a discussion about the effect of race. Do you know why? B/c systemic racial discrimination still exists. It's really fecking simple and nothing to rail against. Racism is not discussed in every thread on the Caf, it's just that some are so uncomfortable talking about it that they readily engage in confirmation bias whenever the subject comes up.
I think it's unfortunate that racism is so prevalent and pervasive in every level of society, yet we try and find the safest, obvious places to talk about it. I'm not even woke like that but I find this behavior odd and telling.
The framing of the question he was asked dictated that answer from Antonio. He was responding to a question about whether Zouma deserves harsher punishment than what has already happened. He condems Zouma and says he disagrees with his actions. I don't think there was anything wrong with his response.
No, that's completely illogical but yes we can agree to disagree
“Sticks and stones” comes to mind
Well there's responding like a rational adult and there's petty name calling, and clearly you were in the second boat although you really would want to appear to be in the former. Your post that opined was misplaced as the reaction is largely (there will be morons everywhere) due to a man kicking a helpless animal (and that's just the times caught on camera) and thankfully a lot of people seemingly do have compassion for species other than their own, and don't make excuses for pricks like Zouma (now that's a prick) by bringing up random things like not being into the domestication of animals culture/seeing dogs as symbols of weaponization by cops/it isn't as bad as racism, which while being covered in the veil of nuance is seemingly more a lack of empathy and overdose of agenda.
That's fine. Seems to be your forte anyway.
This thread is in the absolute pits
What the feck
Terry and Suarez are hated by masses of football fans so I don’t really get how they didn’t receive a backlash. Maguire got into a fight on holiday and people called for him to be axed from England and United. Alonso wasn’t in England during his horrendous incident but still gets chants from the stands. Zouma slapped and threw a family pet across the room in front of his kid, he’s getting shit for it and rightly so. People in the UK like their pets, but it will be forgot about in a week or so.