Nice job contradicting yourself, but my logic is sound and I have no agenda. Honestly, it's not my job to teach you that racism is about a system of oppression that's been in place for hundreds of years, and that's what makes it so sinister. Calling a black person the N-word or making ape noises is nothing but banter without Western society's burden of systemic racial discrimination. This is why it is always worse than animal abuse (animals are subservient to humans and we generally treat them like shit)
Kurt Zouma / 180 hours community service + banned from keeping cats for 5 years
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran are here to talk about a frustrating 2 points dropped at Crystal Palace. They then discuss the regeneration of Old Trafford. Finally, Nik is joined by special guest Michael Statham from the Football Oranje podcast - who gives us a more in depth look at our EL opposition FC Twente, and then runs through the (many) Dutch connections currently at United.
It doesn't make it right but I think it's the scale of the reaction, with some calls for him to be sacked, it's understandable that some look at previous reactions to racism, drink driving, sexual assault or physical assault etc. and wonder why there hasn't been similar reactions. It's more about the double standards and hypocrisy, which I think is a fair comment to make. That said, clear video evidence is always going to make matters worse than just what he or she said.
Some of takes have been extremely misleading though, people comparing Zouma's £250k fine to Suarez's £40k fine, without acknowledging that Zouma received a 2 week fine from his club and the £40k fine for Suarez was from the FA.
Wow. Footballers are getting wierder and wierder the more light you put on them. To even talk about racism when you are asked about animal abuse is beyond stupidity.
It became a big talking about after Chris Kirkland said it during an interview with the BBC yesterday. This thread has been mostly okay.
Still cant believe they started him so soon after the whole thing, it was bound to be a PR disaster. Really terrible response and it's gonna hang over them for a while.
Gold medal worthy mental gymnastics to connect animal abuse to racism 
West Ham may as well post the video of Kanye West saying George Bush doesn’t care about black people to their Twitter feed at this point. Their PR has been as horrific as Utd’s chance finishing the last week.
West Ham may as well post the video of Kanye West saying George Bush doesn’t care about black people to their Twitter feed at this point. Their PR has been as horrific as Utd’s chance finishing the last week.
I agree, however, when you see Suarez bite a human being and gets caught being racist and you don't see him lose his Adidas sponsorship it does bring in to question double standards.
I'm all for Zouma being punished, however, if only the punishment was the same for all people that commit abuse regardless of the colour of their skin.
I'm just calling a spade a spade. Straw man arguments that invoke rape are the signs that a person doesn't have the capacity to discuss differing points of view in good faith. Textbook prick.Ooh I've touched a nerve. They're all horrible I agree but just dont go around making a big deal when it involves animals, alright!?
You're a random poster from India trying to lecture me about racism in the West. Trust my nerves are intact.
West Ham fans bringing up Mason Greenwood saying Zouma has had more media attention than him
A fair point from Antonio that players have evaded racism charges, but a point made at a bad time. When asked directly about animal abuse it only appears as an attempt to diminish or deflect on behalf of his mate.
It shouldn't need saying but both animal abuse and racism are reprehensible and anyone caught in a massively incriminating video doing either should quite rightly face consequences.
What is a “racism”? Are we talking about genocide and crimes against humanity here, or the casual use of a supposed South American term of endearment?
I’ve got direct relatives who are non-White British who are a bit non-plussed at how animal abuse is being written off because racism exists.
Not that I’d really want to pick, but I’d suggest that my family cats being tortured by a group of thugs is worse than that same group yelling a one-off racial slur at my son in the heat of the moment.
Maybe I am miles out of touch. Happy to be educated.
Do you people even read the posts you respond to? Agenda? Read the very first sentence of my post. Do it twice for good measure. That's the point.
Without doubt, there is far more outrage about Zouma's cats than say syrian refugees drowning in the Channel.What
That's one crazy person though. I'm sure there are more, but it' still a bit of stretch from that towards your general statement that people in Western societies value pets over people.
Fans and the club doing all they can to deflect, classy.
Thank you for actually taking things into context. The narrative in this thread that there is a racial agenda just b/c people are adding nuance/differing points of view to the discussion is a shame. Very few people if any are saying he did nothing wrong. The main point of contention is the reaction by the media/general public.
What Zouma did was wrong and he will face suspension and a fine and possibly no longer have the right to own a domestic animal, but anyone calling for harsher punishment than that is straight up ridiculous.
And by the way, is this thread supposed to be an echo chamber like reddit where there's almost a contest to see who has the highest moral ground and where everyone has to share the same outrage or otherwise be down voted? A poster basically called for another to be banned because he didn't like his opinion on the matter, what type of BS is that?
Some people need to realize and understand that not everyone shares their level of outrage over this issue, that doesn't mean that people are condoning what Zouma did. They're just simply pointing out the overreaction by some on this issue.
And by the way, is this thread supposed to be an echo chamber like reddit where there's almost a contest to see who has the highest moral ground and where everyone has to share the same outrage or otherwise be down voted? A poster basically called for another to be banned because he didn't like his opinion on the matter, what type of BS is that?
Some people need to realize and understand that not everyone shares their level of outrage over this issue, that doesn't mean that people are condoning what Zouma did. They're just simply pointing out the overreaction by some on this issue.
I agree - But a lot of things like this that happen in football cause more outrage than people drowing in the channel. That's what happens when you have a government who actively downplays the latter, and uses incendiary language about those people caught in a desperate situation - so the two are not particularly comparable.
Yep. I can’t help but feel like had they not started him, and then released their statement about the fine and what not, it would have looked like they were dealing with the matter internally.
Instead they played him, and everything they tried to do after that comes across as just damage control as a response to the public outrage.
That being said, West Ham and Zouma definitely deserve whatever they get from this, but the club could have handled it better.
I’m cooking a steak for my cats tomorrow to pee off all the vegans in this thread.
In all honesty though, I’d give Zouma a bit of leeway and all the defenses about different cultures/values would have more weight behind them if he does come from such background, coming from a third world country myself where dog meat is openly put on display for sale in marketplaces, and it’s the norm for pets to be maltreated. He’s not though, the guy spent all of his life in France and England and this sort of behaviour isn’t likely something he picked up on growing up. That he did it and enjoyed it says a lot about what sort of character he is, either incredibly dim or incredibly heartless, and I don’t know which is worse.
In all honesty though, I’d give Zouma a bit of leeway and all the defenses about different cultures/values would have more weight behind them if he does come from such background, coming from a third world country myself where dog meat is openly put on display for sale in marketplaces, and it’s the norm for pets to be maltreated. He’s not though, the guy spent all of his life in France and England and this sort of behaviour isn’t likely something he picked up on growing up. That he did it and enjoyed it says a lot about what sort of character he is, either incredibly dim or incredibly heartless, and I don’t know which is worse.
People find it uncomfortable to talk about race and double standards mainly due to the fact that it's easier to act like the subject matter has nothing to do with it than to have a serious, tough convo regarding it.
Unfortunately people can't see that you can have a discussion about racism without it being used to defend someone's actions.
People seem to be being very selective if they're saying Zouma is getting more punishment / criticism than others for other offences at this time. Why drag up Suarez, who was disciplined in 'different times'? Compare Zouma to the public reaction of Greenwood and Goodwillie, at the same time, and it's much more comparative. But, punishment wise? He's still at his club, playing games. The others aren't.
Yes, there's the using response of calling for stronger punishments on social media that you get for all kinds of famous people when they're caught doing wrong. Just look at the Greenwood thread on here as example of how people also react to sexual assault cases - so I don't get people asking why there isn't similar outrage to that. When there is.
But how is Zouma being treated worse by his club or authorities? So far he hasn't missed a game. The police aren't taking action. And absolutely no sign of him being suspended by the club.
This is clearly someone who has never abused a swan, those feckers'll break your arm as soon as look at you.
Mess of a thread
The word "racism" has unfortunately evolved into just mean words/acts against PoC, but before the age of mass media and cancel culture it was seen as a system of oppression. Like I said in another post, things like the N-word and ape noises wouldn't matter in the absence of systemic racial discrimination. So both of your examples, are "true" racism however extreme they may be. Gentrification, mass incarceration of black men, lack of educational funding in inner cities are others.
I don't want to go down this rabbit hole but I will tie it in to the point I think you were responding to. When a person says animal abuse can be as bad as racism, they have narrowed racism down to an action rather than an intentional system, and for me, it shows a lack of understanding about what PoC past and present are fighting for.
The reference to Suarez is because of the difference in how Adidas has handled this. And what was so different 10 years ago anyway?
And clearly, you're not saying kicking a cat is the same as alleged rape? Alleged violent rape? Are you?
Society has changed massively in the past 10 years in this regard. It's unimagineable that the Suarez case would play out the same today, or that the Zouma case would play out the same 10 years ago.
@MackRobinson your posts are excellent, but honestly I doubt it's going to change people's minds.
I could not agree more.
The world is a different place now. The Suarez incidents were over ten years ago. He would 100% have lost his sponsorships and would probably have been fired if they’d happened today.
Do you not think that the response to the animal abuse would have been exactly the same if a white man had done it rather than a black man? Race has nothing to do with the outrage here, I can assure you.
Well just a couple of years ago Maguire was in Greece, was found guilty of assaulting police officers, he still has a Puma sponsorship.
Or has society changed massively in the last year and a half ?
Maguire was given a tearful interview on how he feared for his life and the blame was put on the Greek authorities and you expect me to believe there's no double standards in todays society ?
Am I saying that? I've never compared the two on levels of unacceptability and announced a conclusion, no. Why do you ask?
My post about the comparative reaction was in response to the posts I quoted which included:.
"It's understandable that some look at previous reactions to racism, drink driving, sexual assault or physical assault etc. and wonder why there hasn't been similar reactions."
And I posted that there rightly has been similar outrage in the media, on social media, etc. And said look at the Greenwood thread as proof of how people rightly reacted to it.
What does that have to do with attitudes towards racism and animal abuse?
How is it? Human have eaten meat for thousands of years. Hurting, almost torturing animals for fun in front of children is not the same. food and torture now being the same for you? You actually think that taking your kid to McDonalds is worse than slapping and kicking a scared and innocent cat around, just because you can?
The argument is as weird as it is invalid
Ha ha, good joke. Tell me; do you have balls and write similiar joke on latest Grenwood's thread or Elanga's thread?
Amy Cooper is not a one-off and I personally don't think it's a stretch. I qualified it by saying mostly affluent white people b/c I've seen it first hand. I used to be absolutely shocked at the amount of money my peers at work would tell me they spent on their pets (flights, daycare, clothes, accessories, food, etc) and these same people wouldn't even give a homeless person a dollar if they had it (many think that homeless people are drug addicts who chose to be on the streets). Granted this is in America, so I can't speak for the UK, but I'm pretty convinced it's the case.
But honestly, I'm not surprised. Many people (especially Americans) live in such excess that they become desensitized to the plight of fellow human beings.
I'm clearly missing your point - what have swans got to do with Greenwood or Elanga?
These comments infuriate me
What on Earth has this got to do with the Premier League????
this is entirely West Ham’s problem.
If they want to play him, they can, and they will.
wrong decision of course, but that’s West Ham’s decision/mistake too make, nothing to do with the premier league in any way shape or form.
Yes, you do
Yes, whereas constantly bleating on about racism in case of animal abuse is definitely the sign of an individual with the capacity to form a logical and well-balanced argument. As is the obvious desperation to resort to using abusive language in two posts in a row, and now state the country I belong to as if it somehow matters. You don't seem to have any nerves left based on your last few posts.