OkWhat?
Kurt Zouma / 180 hours community service + banned from keeping cats for 5 years
- Thread starter MyOnlySolskjaer
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran are here to talk about a frustrating 2 points dropped at Crystal Palace. They then discuss the regeneration of Old Trafford. Finally, Nik is joined by special guest Michael Statham from the Football Oranje podcast - who gives us a more in depth look at our EL opposition FC Twente, and then runs through the (many) Dutch connections currently at United.
Whether you like the concept of caring for pets or not should not really factor into your having empathy for a defenseless little chap being kicked senseless.
So do you or does Kurt Zouma hate all dogs because of some being weaponized by cops? Isn't that pretty much the same as discriminating against someone based in their color /sex because some person team that color /sex once did a bad thing? Not sure what the nuance in this Kurt Zouma case is?
That's Zouma's backstory. He's the victim really. He was simply responding to society inexplicably valuing cats more than it does people by taking one as a pet and then beating it up.What
That wasn't constructive, you are right.
Can you provide examples of situations where affluent white people value domesticated animals higher than people, and how do you think it manifests in the Zouma case? Because even though people were outraged, he still played the other day. I'm guessing he would not have played, if he had been equally violent to a fellow human being.
I have seen a lot of people say that they value their own animals over people. Many times online. I really don't understand your reaction to that post. This is definitely a big generalisation, but I do believe that white people in the west are much more loving of animals than PoC. There will be/are PoC that read this story, and think it's bad, but think that the uproar over it is a bit over the top. I definitely disagree with the point that him being black is making the outrage worse. I have seen white people mistreat animals, and receive severe backlash for it online.What
I think the issue many PoC have is when you have white people saying that this is worse than racism. Making this statement is pretty offensive, and it's baffling to see people not understanding why we're upset by it.
Unsurprisingly the discussion have taken a turn for the worst.
That wasn't the point and I did say what he did was shitty.
Racism is about systematic oppression, not a phobia of black people from a past experience. Xenophobia (and all the other phobias) will always exist and is absolutely NOT the same thing as racism. Also shows the general lack of understanding of racism and anti-racism is more performance art than anything, but that's a different topic.
Worst thread award sewn up nice and early this year.
Have people said this? Agreed that's silly if so. Apples and oranges really.
Amy Cooper (aka Central Park Karen) faked getting assaulted by a black man and potentially put his life in danger because she didn't want to put her dog on a leash. First thing off the top of my head
Thanks. But this thread is about a bloke battering his cat. The reaction to it is what people with empathy should do. Will there be a few racist people entering that fray? Sure, as with all walks of life. But if Rooney did this then I'm sure people would have reacted strongly as well.
Look back a few pages. There are posters actually arguing that animal abuse can be worse than racism. Not even worth naming and shaming b/c it's a completely idiotic and tone-deaf take.
I don't think anyone has said that. More along the line that this can be worse than a racist act. Which it can. As can be the case the other way around. It has more to do with the FA clamping down (rightfully) on racism and hence asking them to also give this it's due importance.
What a trainwreck this thread became. If some shit which is written here, were wrote in some other threads about abuse, bans would be flying all around. But it is just about one idiot kicking a cat so lets write some shit and laugh to silly people who love animals.
I love this forum. I really do. But this thread makes me sad and angry.
I love this forum. I really do. But this thread makes me sad and angry.
Way to completely miss the point again. Read the first sentence of what you originally responded to. My point is what @KennyBurner said shouldn't be grounds for banning, because it's a non-controversial thought process a lot of black people have even if they don't completely agree with it.
It absolutely can. Not every case of course but it's possible. If I said sexual abuse can be worse than racism you wouldn't mind I'm sure because DOGS WERE WEAPONIZED AND HENCE DONT MEAN MUCH. Or something.
West Ham have lost another sponsor.
Interesting to see how many more will follow, especially as the club intends to continue playing Zouma.
Interesting to see how many more will follow, especially as the club intends to continue playing Zouma.
Michail Antonio this morning with the 'but it's not as bad as racism' defence.
Some people are choosing a very bizarre hill to die on, trying to explain away and mitigate animal abuse.
So Zouma is taking down West Ham, Moyes and now Antonio has made himself look a tit.
At least it's showing people's true colours. Vile people.
Some people are choosing a very bizarre hill to die on, trying to explain away and mitigate animal abuse.
So Zouma is taking down West Ham, Moyes and now Antonio has made himself look a tit.
At least it's showing people's true colours. Vile people.
This is a garbage distinction. A racist act is part of the system of racism. You can't separate the act from the system and compare it to a one-off event. Crazy logic
Oh dear.
Just to add this pointless comparison was just made initially by an football I believe to highlight that racism is taken seriously as should this. Otherwise there's no reason why we need to compare the two really.
Obviously, that's not what I said, and it's swell you like to argue in hypotheticals, but you show a general lack of understanding about racism. Not even how I'm supposed to respond to this.
Violence, rape, abuse etc these aren't one off events. Nice of you to play down other people's/beings plight because it doesn't involve some 'system' or cops.
I personally think it's unacceptable that the race card is being played here. Especially from anyone connected to West Ham, like Michael Antonio.
People react with anger whenever a famous person is caught doing something bad like this - whether that's a white or black sports star, politician, police, etc.
Trying to belittle / undermine the criticism whenever it's a black person guilty of it by quickly dragging the issue back to race isn't fair. It's got nothing to do with race. It's about a person abusing a small, defenceless animal.
This is about animal rights. There's room, or damn well should be, for outrage and sympathy for other kind of rights without dragging everything back to racism or sexism. And if some can't do that, then it says more about their self obsessed / serving attitudes, and lack of empathy to any other group, than it does about those appalled by the act and rightly condemning the person responsible for it.
People react with anger whenever a famous person is caught doing something bad like this - whether that's a white or black sports star, politician, police, etc.
Trying to belittle / undermine the criticism whenever it's a black person guilty of it by quickly dragging the issue back to race isn't fair. It's got nothing to do with race. It's about a person abusing a small, defenceless animal.
This is about animal rights. There's room, or damn well should be, for outrage and sympathy for other kind of rights without dragging everything back to racism or sexism. And if some can't do that, then it says more about their self obsessed / serving attitudes, and lack of empathy to any other group, than it does about those appalled by the act and rightly condemning the person responsible for it.
How the feck is hard to understand? Are you able to use basic logic when you read stuff?
There are no levels of abuse. All abuse (racism, domestic abuse, animal abuse) are bad as it goes. If you want to list them by "which is worse" you go for it. I will not. For me evil shit is evil shit.
Animal abuse is worse than others IN TERMS that animal can never ever defend itself or do anything. Animal is in 100% cases totally helpless. That doesn't mean by any account that animal abuse IN GENERAL is worse than racism. Because of course it is not.
Stop putting things out of context and reading stuff in a way to support your agenda.
Insulting another member
Now, you're just being a disingenuous prick. I'm talking specifically about animal abuse.
Well said.
Can’t believe Antonio thought it was a good idea to bring race into this. It’s not relevant.
West Ham have showed a clear lack of leadership on this. They should have nipped it in the bud but they’ve let it simmer and this could get bigger than it needed to be.
Ooh I've touched a nerve. They're all horrible I agree but just dont go around making a big deal when it involves animals, alright!?
Just read this. Pathetic to go to that as route one. People have been banned for racism, it's being cracked down on hard. So what's his excuse now? What a twat.
Absolutely adore Michael Antonio
Yes, they have. There are many people on Twitter saying it. There has been the odd person say it in this thread, too. It is a pretty big talking point on Black Twitter UK right now.
Racism have nothing to do with beating up cats and animals. What you are doing is trying to use this situation for some white - black agenda. Why? I don't care who people are. You don't kick around helpless animals. We live in western society where it is abnormal doing it. If people in other part of world hate and kicks animals for fun then so be it.
I rather live with cats, dogs and animals than humans who are evil regardless of their background.
Is he 100 per cent sure that the same person who wanted an 8 game ban for racist behaviour has also said life ban for cat beating? Seems an odd thing to say in response to the outrage. Surely he realizes that different people are calling for different things?
Antonio was asked if Zuma deserved a harsher punishment, not whether what Zuma did was wrong. He clearly affirms his disapproval for the act itself. His answer then was perfectly reasonable since by definition a question of whether punishment should be harsher requires a comparison with punishments meted out for comparable situations.
Antonio never explained away animal abuse so this is an unfair misrepresentation of what he said. He's entitled to feel that reactions are over the top in comparison to other events as long as he's not completely dismissed the act of abuse.
Okay I was referring to this thread. I didn't know we were discussing twitter / gutter discourse. Besides how would one even compare two evils in general? Makes no sense.
No, not really. (I don't mean it to ignore the cat's rights, I mean, it shouldn't be the focal point of the conversation).
This is about a fecking grown individual hitting a cat (albeit, seemingly as a joke) and thinking it's funny. This is the angle the situation should be looked at.
What the world needs to realize here is that the guy is a dumb, unintelligent human being, this should be the focus of the topic/conversation. He's just another uneducated football player.
What on earth is going on in this thread? Abuse of any kind is not a zero sum game, in which one trumps another. Abuse of all kinds should be condemned and in this instance we are talking about animal abuse.
The reaction to this from wider society may have some intersections with race in terms of how strong the perceived outrage is based on the race of the perpetrator but that is not a mitigation for animal abuse (or any other kind of abuse) and is more a sad indictment of the media in this country and how they report on such stories.
There is undoubtedly a history of British media outlets treating black players very differently to their white peers however I don’t think that is the case here; what we are seeing is justified outrage to despicable behaviour. To reduce this discussion to whataboutism and conflate various instances of abuse is naive at best and destructive and divisive at worst.
The reaction to this from wider society may have some intersections with race in terms of how strong the perceived outrage is based on the race of the perpetrator but that is not a mitigation for animal abuse (or any other kind of abuse) and is more a sad indictment of the media in this country and how they report on such stories.
There is undoubtedly a history of British media outlets treating black players very differently to their white peers however I don’t think that is the case here; what we are seeing is justified outrage to despicable behaviour. To reduce this discussion to whataboutism and conflate various instances of abuse is naive at best and destructive and divisive at worst.
Sadly, I can believe it. It's a cheap tactic in terms of deflecting the issue back on more comfortable ground, and making the media / FA more wary about criticising him / punishing him too much.
But, as you say, it's actually got nothing to do with race or racism. It's not relevant whether the person abusing an animal is black, white, male, female. They should rightly be equally condemned and punished regardless.
It feels like the behaviour of the PM and Cabinet is now rubbing off on the rest of the country. Any bad behaviour can and will be downplayed by whataboutism and irrelevant comparisons.