Koke

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In the matches i've seen he never played as DM. Not even as a CM. And against Chelsea at Stmford he played exactly the free roaming number 10 role. As he did in group matches in CL, against Zenit at home and Porto away.
It was more of a left midfielder, that's where he played for the majority of this season because it was the system that worked for them. Atletico played with more of a 4-4-1-1 in the Chelsea game, with Adrian in behind Diego Costa. Koke wasn't given a free role though, and he puts in loads of defensive work along with his quality going forward.

Edit: Here's his whoscored (i know... ) link that shows he played mostly as a wide midfielder, but as an attacking mid only once.

http://www.whoscored.com/Players/80764
 
He did not play at CM against Chelsea, he did not play there against Barcelona in La Liga final day, he did not play there in any CL matches i've seen. And that's three group matches, both Milan ones, 1-1 with Barca (0-0 i did not watch, i knew it will be like that), both Chelsea and final.
I know, he played wide, as he has for the majority of the season to best fit other players into the system. But he never played as a 10.
 
This all coming a day or two after he himself convincingly said he had no desire to leave Atletico and planned on staying there for quite a while yet. Money isn't everything to every player or team in the game, would be shocked to see him leave in this market.
 
I know, he played wide, as he has for the majority of the season to best fit other players into the system. But he never played as a 10.
Number 10 is a role, not a position. See Chelsea match at Bridge, he played exactly as a number 10. He moved all over the attack to find pockets of space the same way Mata does.
 
That would be a dream move. Such universal and quality footballer would easily make an instant impact, not to mention his work rate for Atletico is one of the reasons why they were bossing the whole season.

If Van Gaal shall pursue him, he will gain a huge amount of trust from United fans on a start.
 
Except he's not a number 10 at all, and is very capable of playing as a central midfielder. He is nothing like Mata too. Do you actually watch him play?
Yes, lets take Chelsea's games in semi-final, as they are fresh in memory. What role did he played in them?
 
I don't really get why people want him so bad. I mean his a great player. But how does he fit in? I remember reading that he is CM last summer, well i've seen him this year for quite a number of times, and he is definitely not a CM. Nowhere near actually. He is a number 10, e very similar player to Mata, he can play on the side, but then he needs to be the only player of this type, cause he drifts out of position so much. In Atletico it works, because he usually balanced by more of a classic wing player Turan and Adrian, who is sort of water-carrier and allows Koke to roam free.

I think we need not only good players, but also the players who can fit here in a sense, that there is a little sense to collect all the number 10s we can, and then try to figure out how to fit them all together.

I would prefer us going for a proper CM, and if LVG wants to play 4-3-3 we need at least on winger forward either, because Valencia for example is more of a wing back than a forward. But it has to be a quick player who is comfortable on the wing.

Agree with that. Stick to the script - horses for courses type of thing. Unless LvG thinks Koke can play CM & do it at a top-class level. Koke just doesnt seem to be the player we need, unless the rumours are right that Mata could be sold to Barca. Even if that were true - Mata's a better player than Koke in that behind the Striker role - same as Rooney!
 
Yes, lets take Chelsea's games in semi-final, as they are fresh in memory. What role did he played in them?
As a left midfielder. Ives even plenty of him but I've never seen him play as a #10. Most of the season was spent as a left midfielder tucking in or providing width, but not as an attacking winger or anything.
 
This all coming a day or two after he himself convincingly said he had no desire to leave Atletico and planned on staying there for quite a while yet. Money isn't everything to every player or team in the game, would be shocked to see him leave in this market.
As discussed above though, release clause throws a spanner in the works.
 
I do take your point but regardless of circumstances they can't turn the bid down either way. It would defeat the point of a release clause if the club influenced the player into rejecting any bid.

That wasnt the point. This whole thing started when a player said the release clause meant things werent in Koke's hand. That's when I said he can simply refuse the contract and stay. That's when someone said he wouldnt stay when the club didnt want him, so I clarified that someone coming in with a release clause leaves Atletico helpless, it doesnt mean they dont want him. Thus if Koke actually meant what he's been saying all along about definitely staying at Atletico, meeting the release clause would mean nothing. Atletico wont push him out either as they'd already have made 50mil in the market, something they couldnt have if he was the only guy going out. That was my point.
 
It was more of a left midfielder, that's where he played for the majority of this season because it was the system that worked for them. Atletico played with more of a 4-4-1-1 in the Chelsea game, with Adrian in behind Diego Costa. Koke wasn't given a free role though, and he puts in loads of defensive work along with his quality going forward.

Edit: Here's his whoscored (i know... ) link that shows he played mostly as a wide midfielder, but as an attacking mid only once.

http://www.whoscored.com/Players/80764
You are confusing different things, you seem to think that's number 10 is a position, like an AM, and that is not true, number 10 is a role. You can easily play number 10 situated on the wing. All you need is defensive cover and the license to roam around the pitch, looking for the ball and being the creative center of the team, that what number 10 is.
And even whoscored clearly shows he is not a CM/DM as he have a combined of 6 matches there a whole season. You can brand him as a side midfielder, that all right, but he is not a classic one at least. He plays with a lot of roaming, i mean just see his touch map for the Chelsea game, it's all over the place. And Koke certainly can be winger in 4-3-3 for example.
 
That wasnt the point. This whole thing started when a player said the release clause meant things werent in Koke's hand. That's when I said he can simply refuse the contract and stay. That's when someone said he wouldnt stay when the club didnt want him, so I clarified that someone coming in with a release clause leaves Atletico helpless, it doesnt mean they dont want him. Thus if Koke actually meant what he's been saying all along about definitely staying at Atletico, meeting the release clause would mean nothing. Atletico wont push him out either as they'd already have made 50mil in the market, something they couldnt have if he was the only guy going out. That was my point.
Well you spoke about 'them turning it down' hence the confusion. I got what your point was regardless, and mine is that I don't think Koke would reject a move when a fee is paid that both parties agreed was the point at which a sale will be allowed. I've never seen a player reject a move when another club has met the clause. Are there any examples?
 
You are confusing different things, you seem to think that's number 10 is a position, like an AM, and that is not true, number 10 is a role. You can easily play number 10 situated on the wing. All you need is defensive cover and the license to roam around the pitch, looking for the ball and being the creative center of the team, that what number 10 is.
And even whoscored clearly shows he is not a CM/DM as he have a combined of 6 matches there a whole season. You can brand him as a side midfielder, that all right, but he is not a classic one at least. He plays with a lot of roaming, i mean just see his touch map for the Chelsea game, it's all over the place. And Koke certainly can be winger in 4-3-3 for example.
I know what you mean but you seem to be implying that he doesn't do defensive work, which just isn't true at all. He's one of the hardest working players around, puts in excellent defensive work and goes forward really well. He's just a very good all around player and this lets him be so versatile that he can play anywhere. I think he's mainly a midfielder because that's where he used to play and started out playing. He's played as a wide player tucking in mostly this season, but that doesn't mean he's not a midfielder. Just like we played welbeck and kagawa out wide mostly doesn't mean they aren't central players, or jones at right back when we used to use him. He was used everywhere because of his versatility to effortlessly fill in and because in center mid they had some very good players already, meaning they could afford to let him fill in on the side.
 
Well you spoke about 'them turning it down' hence the confusion. I got what your point was regardless, and mine is that I don't think Koke would reject a move when a fee is paid that both parties agreed was the point at which a sale will be allowed. I've never seen a player reject a move when another club has met the clause. Are there any examples?

Dont think so simply because I dont believe clubs bid without ascertaining from the player's team that he wants a move. So if we do actually bid his release clause, it'd mean we've talked to him 1st.

EDIT: I understand this doesnt fit with my post about us bidding and him still not coming. That was simply in response to someone saying a bid takes it out of his hand.
 
He's more of an attacking mid who will step on the 2 #10s we already are trying to accommodate. I'd much rather go back in for Herrera, who will be much cheaper and plays a position we are desperately short in.
 
As discussed above though, release clause throws a spanner in the works.

Possibly but the player himself is happy where he is with no desire to move. So do you really waste time and 40+ million on a player that actually wants to stay where he is? You can meet the buyout clause, but if the player himself isn't overly interested, to me it's stupid even pursuing it when for that price it's quite likely you can get plenty of other quality players who might actually want the move.
 
As a left midfielder. Ives even plenty of him but I've never seen him play as a #10. Most of the season was spent as a left midfielder tucking in or providing width, but not as an attacking winger or anything.
Read this:
Chelsea v Atletico Madrid - BBC analysis

See for yourself. Here is his average position Koke is number 6 on the right pic.
_74567218_avposchelseaatletico.jpg



Is it a left midfielder position? Not quite.
His touch map(left pic):
_74567214_kokejuanfran.jpg


How is that not a number 10 role? That's exactly what it is.

To summarize. I don't mind him being called a side midfielder, my main point was that he is not a CM. But what people need to get then, that he is not an orthodox one. And basically he would play on the side in same manner as Kagawa does, he plays there for Japan, i think. He is more of a free roaming player. It's okay to have one. No, it's even great. But not so many. Look at Atletico team, they are counter-balance Koke with a lot of water-carriers and more direct players. If you pick Koke in a 4-4-1-1 with Adnan and Mata, it will be just to many players with a similar role, even if they are situated on different positions.
 
Number 10 is a role, not a position. See Chelsea match at Bridge, he played exactly as a number 10. He moved all over the attack to find pockets of space the same way Mata does.
That concept is true but it isn't applicable to Koke. A proper number ten has freedom to roam but has an advanced creative role with minimal defensive duties. Koke on the other hand puts in a huge defensive shift, uses his physical presence and covers massive amounts of ground without having such creative freedom. He really isn't a 10 nor ever has been.

Look at the touch map you just posted. Loads of touches in his own half and several in and around his own box. Mata/Ozil never play so deep. It's more similar to something you'd see from Vidal or Schweinsteiger, just from a wide position.
 
That concept is true but it isn't applicable to Koke. A proper number ten has freedom to roam but has an advanced creative role with minimal defensive duties. Koke on the other hand puts in a huge defensive shift, uses his physical presence and covers massive amounts of ground without having such creative freedom. He really isn't a 10 nor ever has been.
That's not true, it strictly depends on the player, a lot of number 10s are leading in what so called possession won in final third, and they are actually winning a lot of balls back. Mata did last year for Chelsea, Lallana did it this year, Oscar, Suarez. A lot of them really.

Number 10s such as Del Piero or Baggio a classic "fantasista" i think it's called, or Totti, they are actually quite rare in modern day.
 
Read this:
Chelsea v Atletico Madrid - BBC analysis

See for yourself. Here is his average position Koke is number 6 on the right pic.
_74567218_avposchelseaatletico.jpg



Is it a left midfielder position? Not quite.
His touch map(left pic):
_74567214_kokejuanfran.jpg


How is that not a number 10 role? That's exactly what it is.

To summarize. I don't mind him being called a side midfielder, my main point was that he is not a CM. But what people need to get then, that he is not an orthodox one. And basically he would play on the side in same manner as Kagawa does, he plays there for Japan, i think. He is more of a free roaming player. It's okay to have one. No, it's even great. But not so many. Look at Atletico team, they are counter-balance Koke with a lot of water-carriers and more direct players. If you pick Koke in a 4-4-1-1 with Adnan and Mata, it will be just to many players with a similar role, even if they are situated on different positions.

So you reckon Koke's any use man? :lol:
 
That's not true, it strictly depends on the player, a lot of number 10s are leading in what so called possession won in final third, and they are actually winning a lot of balls back. Mata did last year for Chelsea, Lallana did it this year, Oscar, Suarez. A lot of them really.

Number 10s such as Del Piero or Baggio a classic "fantasista" i think it's called, or Totti, they are actually quite rare in modern day.
There's a difference between defending from the front by pressing and chasing back regularly into your own half to win it. As you say - possession won in final third. Koke chases further back than that even from out wide and even deeper when he's played centrally. I agree that he would need a solid defensive partner and we sorely lack that player, but we are equally lacking in energy and creativity from CM. Koke's attributes are perfectly suited to that role, and the fact he's so versatile in other positions would suggest he could adapt equally well to a central role.
 
There's a difference between defending from the front by pressing and chasing back regularly into your own half to win it. As you say - possession won in final third. Koke chases further back than that even from out wide and even deeper when he's played centrally. I agree that he would need a solid defensive partner and we sorely lack that player, but we are equally lacking in energy and creativity from CM. Koke's attributes are perfectly suited to that role, and the fact he's so versatile in other positions would suggest he could adapt equally well to a central role.
In the matches i've seen Koke very often caught out of position, which is no surprise given that he like to dribble a lot and he is roaming all over the pitch.

So how exactly would you propose we use him? With Carrick as a CM? I don't think that's gonna fly. As for our creativity problem we have Mata to rectify that.
 
Koke has played in centre midfield a lot by the way. He played alongside Illarramendi (with Thiago in front of them) during Spain's u21 tournament last summer, and he's finished quite a few games this season in centre midfield when Simeone was chasing a goal.

His main position this year has been out wide but I don't think there's any question that he's naturally a centre midfielder and that he'll play there in the future.
 
He is a versatile player, he can play literally any position *in midfield* to good effect. I don't think he's a number 10 at all, I don't agree with you on that. Nevertheless, he will be at Atleti for the foreseeable future, before leaving for Barca likely.
 
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In the matches i've seen Koke very often caught out of position, which is no surprise given that he like to dribble a lot and he is roaming all over the pitch.

So how exactly would you propose we use him? With Carrick as a CM? I don't think that's gonna fly. As for our creativity problem we have Mata to rectify that.
I think we need two midfielders - someone defensively and positionally sound who can shield the back four and someone who can create from deep. Against the weaker sides Carrick and Koke would probably be decent though - obviously a massive upgrade on what we have now.

Such is our issue with creativity that Kagawa and Mata seem to have to drop ridiculously deep to pick up the ball. They're more suited to playing further up the pitch so we need someone in that central midfield to spread the play and pick a pass to some of the excellent attacking players we have that never get the ball. Too often under Moyes we resorted to slow, simple passes out wide and awful deep crosses. Obviously that's partly down to tactics but equally we don't seem to have the players to build attacks centrally from midfield or move the ball quicker to our wide players.
 
He is a versatile player, he can play literally any position to good effect. I don't think he's a number 10 at all, I don't agree with you on that. Nevertheless, he will be at Atleti for the foreseeable future, before leaving for Barca likely.

He'd be a handy player to have alright - considering we might need back up for DDG..
 
I think we need two midfielders - someone defensively and positionally sound who can shield the back four and someone who can create from deep. Against the weaker sides Carrick and Koke would probably be decent though - obviously a massive upgrade on what we have now.

Such is our issue with creativity that Kagawa and Mata seem to have to drop ridiculously deep to pick up the ball. They're more suited to playing further up the pitch so we need someone in that central midfield to spread the play and pick a pass to some of the excellent attacking players we have that never get the ball. Too often under Moyes we resorted to slow, simple passes out wide and awful deep crosses. Obviously that's partly down to tactics but equally we don't seem to have the players to build attacks centrally from midfield or move the ball quicker to our wide players.

All Clevz did last season was pass 5yd balls sideways or back... "You have it - i dont want it.." and ran away to hide...
 
All Clevz did last season was pass 5yd balls sideways or back... "You have it - i dont want it.." and ran away to hide...
Which is strange, as the season before he was often involved early in attacks and looked a useful, energetic all round CM. We've seen this past season that he's positionally awful and useless when given too much defensive responsibility. His confidence was shot which affected his all round game, but I still think if he gets back to basics he's a decent squad option, albeit never as a first choice.
 
Which is strange, as the season before he was often involved early in attacks and looked a useful, energetic all round CM. We've seen this past season that he's positionally awful and useless when given too much defensive responsibility. His confidence was shot which affected his all round game, but I still think if he gets back to basics he's a decent squad option, albeit never as a first choice.

He didnt look comfortable playin at all in most games he played. If he scored the odd goal or two, then maybe that would paper of the cracks, but his shooting is some of the worst i've ever seen from a footballer of any standard. I've a permanent Face-palm in-print from his performances the season past. I hate bein critical of the fella, as he's a really nice lad, but he's not United quality & the potential tag has worn off for many of us. He's 25 in August!

I'd say we'll keep him, but if we could use him as bait to get Barkley & chuck them £25-30m or more - then that would be super-duper.. No chance of that happening either - like most of my wishlist for the summer. Its early days yet i suppose, i'm just ragin FIFA wont put the WC on hold til we sign a shitload of players 1st. Selfish pricks!!
 
Koke is a CM who has played out wide this year, but has looked very comfortable as a 10, a winger, a CM and even an RB.

I really think he can play anywhere. He`s incredibly strong, runs forever (most yards covered in the CL final) and is technically excellent.

He`d be our 8 if he signed him, playing with a more defensive midfielder behind him and presumably one of Kagawa, Mata or Rooney in front of him.
 
Koke is a CM and one of the very few CMs around who could actually play in a two man midfield at the highest level. He is the closest I have seen to Keane, but technically even much better (and I found Keane's technique decent as well, just not great). He is not a 10 and he is nothing like Mata, Mata is an excellent creative attacking mid with great vision and end product. Koke is a center mid with excellent technique, great stamina and work rate, who contributes as much to defending as he does to attacking.

If LvG and Woody actually can convince him to join us, I swear I will have huge posters of both of them in my room forever.
For this kid I would't care what we pay, I would even take him ahead of Vidal, let alone any other center mid.
Having said that he has been on record saying he is staying and Atletico don't need to sell him now, when they have other older players who they could easily sell. They could sell Koke in a couple of years even for bigger money, he has been improving for 2-3 years with incredible speed. But for him there is no reason to leave Atletico right now, when they are doing so well, not even for huge money, he seems to be a loyal and down to earth guy.

I really love everything about him, even every part of his name is just unbeatable!
 
If we sign him... i will wet myself. My keyboard will have sticky keys, it will be the best transfer ever. I would pay 60 million euros if i had them.
 
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