Koke

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Skorenzy said:
No, I do not think Atlético will be bigger challengers for the CL than Utd and nowhere did I state that, and at any rate it is irrelevant to my point.

Indeed, Koke will most likely leave Atlético for reasons outlined by jojojo earlier (think it was in this thread anyway), but not this January and depending on what Atlético achieve this season maybe not even in the summer either, but eventually, most likely yes. They are challenging this year (as they were for a good while last season) and honestly I couldn't tell you how long it will last... I'm not expecting them to win it or for it to go on like this for several years, but that's exactly my point right there and what I was replying to originally: if it's such an improbable event beyond everyone's expectations for Atlético to actually be challenging, then how can anyone accuse Koke of lacking ambition if he were to stay there for the foreseeable future?




Nowhere did I make any sort of judgement about top players wanting to come to Utd or not.

For the bolded part, see my reply to Genius Me! above.

Nowhere did I make any sort of judgement about Utd's chances of getting Koke. The only thing I adressed was the poster's questionable rationale of what he considers ambitious (or more accurately, what he doesn't), which was in my eyes nothing more than a neat, yet illogical narrative to convince himself of Utd having the required pulling power to get a player like Koke -- which they do, of course.
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I never said you did. What I said was the part you criticised is not as wrong as that line that is thrown around.

Also, I do think you're wrong about it being just as, or more ambitious to stay at Athletico. That though, like the poster you are debating with is just my opinion and can neither be proven right or wrong just like your opinion. It's my view that any truly ambitious footballer will want to make the step up to a top tier club, be that United or any other one as soon as is possible for the good of their career.
 
I can't wait until a story leaks that suggests the transfer may be likely upon which at least 60% of us will call him average compared to someone else we don't think we can get and by page 33 it'll be as if we're going to sign Kyle Walker's and Bebe's adoptive love-child
 
Skorenzy said:
No, I do not think Atlético will be bigger challengers for the CL than Utd and nowhere did I state that, and at any rate it is irrelevant to my point.

Indeed, Koke will most likely leave Atlético for reasons outlined by jojojo earlier (think it was in this thread anyway), but not this January and depending on what Atlético achieve this season maybe not even in the summer either, but eventually, most likely yes. They are challenging this year (as they were for a good while last season) and honestly I couldn't tell you how long it will last... I'm not expecting them to win it or for it to go on like this for several years, but that's exactly my point right there and what I was replying to originally: if it's such an improbable event beyond everyone's expectations for Atlético to actually be challenging, then how can anyone accuse Koke of lacking ambition if he were to stay there for the foreseeable future?




Nowhere did I make any sort of judgement about top players wanting to come to Utd or not.

For the bolded part, see my reply to Genius Me! above.

Nowhere did I make any sort of judgement about Utd's chances of getting Koke. The only thing I adressed was the poster's questionable rationale of what he considers ambitious (or more accurately, what he doesn't), which was in my eyes nothing more than a neat, yet illogical narrative to convince himself of Utd having the required pulling power to get a player like Koke -- which they do, of course.
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But how many times have you seen a player not go to a "dream club" for whatever reason, and a move like that not happening again. For example, if he really wanted to come to us but decides to stay there for the rest of this season because he wants to try and win the league with them, we may end up going out and signing another player and have no need for him and he may find himself being stuck at Atletico or not find a team as great as us.

That may not happen, maybe he goes on to win the league, maybe he doesn't but still has his pick of his clubs. My point is, if he has the ambition to move to a top tier club, and an opportunity presents itself then he should take it.
 
Atletico are a selling club, they need to sell as they are in mountains of debt, and of course the club eventually always loses their best players. Difference right now though is that when Torres, Aguero and de Gea all left, the team weren't near as good as they are now. I remember Torres saying he left because he wanted to win trophies at club level. Since then, he's won a couple but hardly played any part in them whilst his boyhood club have won trophies too, and become a force again, like the 90's. Koke is part of their best team since the 90s, with a decent manager. He is at his dream club, so if anyone came in for him now, then he doesn't need to leave. The club may accept the offer and he will be left with the choice but he doesn't need to leave at all, yet. He will have suitors now, summer, next year, whenever. He's a Spanish international, 21 years of age. He doesn't dream of Manchester United so why should he want to move there right now if they show an interest? Likewise to any other big club. He has his whole career ahead of him, and I'm sure when he was a child he probably dreamed of winning the Spanish league with his team. He's not going to throw that opportunity out the window for a january move.
 
Genius Me! said:
But how many times have you seen a player not go to a "dream club" for whatever reason, and a move like that not happening again. For example, if he really wanted to come to us but decides to stay there for the rest of this season because he wants to try and win the league with them, we may end up going out and signing another player and have no need for him and he may find himself being stuck at Atletico or not find a team as great as us.

That may not happen, maybe he goes on to win the league, maybe he doesn't but still has his pick of his clubs. My point is, if he has the ambition to move to a top tier club, and an opportunity presents itself then he should take it.
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My problem was just with the way you portrayed him as if staying at Atlético for half a season or even 1 more season, when they are doing as good as they are right now, wouldn't have been ambitious. I don't know whether you truly believe that or whether you just phrased it like that for effect, but I disagree that it would show a lack of ambition by not moving to Utd immediately when the opportunity arose. It is possible for both options (leaving/staying) to be ambitious, y'know? I'm sure if he would immediately move to City or Chelsea when they came knocking, a lot of fans on here would be up in arms about what a mercenary he is. Either way, he is still only 21 and playing in a comfort zone (his boyhood club) and I doubt very much the offers are suddenly going to stop coming in from here on out barring some freak occurence.
 
Skorenzy said:
My problem was just with the way you portrayed him as if staying at Atlético for half a season or even 1 more season, when they are doing as good as they are right now, wouldn't have been ambitious. I don't know whether you truly believe that or whether you just phrased it like that for effect, but I disagree that it would show a lack of ambition by not moving to Utd immediately when the opportunity arose. It is possible for both options (leaving/staying) to be ambitious, y'know? I'm sure if he would immediately move to City or Chelsea when they came knocking, a lot of fans on here would be up in arms about what a mercenary he is. Either way, he is still only 21 and playing in a comfort zone (his boyhood club) and I doubt very much the offers are suddenly going to stop coming in from here on out barring some freak occurence.
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I've already told you, the whole conversation on the last page before you came thundering in was about him going in the summer.
 
Skorenzy said:
My problem was just with the way you portrayed him as if staying at Atlético for half a season or even 1 more season, when they are doing as good as they are right now, wouldn't have been ambitious. I don't know whether you truly believe that or whether you just phrased it like that for effect, but I disagree that it would show a lack of ambition by not moving to Utd immediately when the opportunity arose. It is possible for both options (leaving/staying) to be ambitious, y'know? I'm sure if he would immediately move to City or Chelsea when they came knocking, a lot of fans on here would be up in arms about what a mercenary he is. Either way, he is still only 21 and playing in a comfort zone (his boyhood club) and I doubt very much the offers are suddenly going to stop coming in from here on out barring some freak occurence.
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My point is that I believe if a player has ambitions to be the best they possibly can, and get the most out of their career then they have to move to a top level club.

Maybe he has different ambitions, like you say to win the league with his boyhood club, but from a football perspective I think you need to move to the top level clubs if presented with the opportunities.

Look at Gerrard, could have been a lot better than he is and have an even greater recognition for his career had he moved to Chelsea or had he left Liverpool for a current top level club. Look at De Rossi, could have been at a greater club, but at the end of the day what do these players really have to show for their careers in terms of medals, league titles and champions leagues? Okay Gerrard has the champions league but the point still stands.

Atletico might be challenging this year, but how long is it really going to last? Are they realistically going to have a chance to win the champions league in the future and win the Spanish league?

So yes, for me, I think if he's ambitious in a football sense to get the most out of his career and have the most he can show for by the end of his career then he would choose to move to us than stay at Atletico.

Your interpretation of the whole thing is different to mine. I didn't say it wasn't ambitious for him to want to try to win the league and maybe champions league with Atletico, and I'll challenge you to show me where I said he is. But you're just thinking of this season, whereas I'm thinking of the next ten years and that's where we clash. Of course it would be ambitious to try and win the league and break the duopoly, but there's a difference between ambition and realism. If he wants to be realistic with his ambition and have the best possible career then yes I think he should take an opportunity to move to us this month because He might not get that opportunity again.

Of course he could go on to win the league, and be the most in demand player in the world, but I think it would be better for him to come to a club that will be able to compete year in year out, despite what's happened to us this season.
 
Irwhine said:
I've already told you, the whole conversation on the last page before you came thundering in was about him going in the summer.
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I think in between that, and my conversation with skorenzy, has ended up with talk about us signing him this month.

Either way, I would still stand by my opinion because like I say, he may not get that summer move. He probably would, but may not. Anything can happen between now and then, loss of form, injury, not getting a chance in the World Cup and many other players shining etc etc.
 
Genius Me! said:
I think in between that, and my conversation with skorenzy, has ended up with talk about us signing him this month.

Either way, I would still stand by my opinion because like I say, he may not get that summer move. He probably would, but may not. Anything can happen between now and then, loss of form, injury, not getting a chance in the World Cup and many other players shining etc etc.
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OK. Well in that case I think it would be perfectly ambitious for a player who is only 21 to stay at his home club for the rest of a season while they make a real, if unlikely push for the title. I don't think coming to United now will improve his chances of getting to the world cup this year and a 21 year old lad can't be so obssessed with form or injury to not delay such an important decision for six months.

I don't think either decision in January could be considered any more or less ambitious than the other, whereas in the Summer a move to a big club would certainly be the more ambitious move.
 
Irwhine said:
OK. Well in that case I think it would be perfectly ambitious for a player who is only 21 to stay at his home club for the rest of a season while they make a real, if unlikely push for the title. I don't think coming to United now will improve his chances of getting to the world cup this year and a 21 year old lad can't be so obssessed with form or injury to not delay such an important decision for six months.

I don't think either decision in January could be considered any more or less ambitious than the other, whereas in the Summer a move to a big club would certainly be the more ambitious move.
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Like I said, I didn't say it wouldn't be ambitious for him to do so, just that if you have the ambition to move to a heavyweight team then you should take the opportunity when it comes your way, if that's what you want as a player.
 
Genius Me! said:
Like I said, I didn't say it wouldn't be ambitious for him to do so, just that if you have the ambition to move to a heavyweight team then you should take the opportunity when it comes your way, if that's what you want as a player.
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But if you're confident enough in your own ability you have to assume that that chance will come again.
 
Irwhine said:
But if you're confident enough in your own ability you have to assume that that chance will come again.
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Yeah, unless he turns into another Gerrard/De Rossi and decides to stay at the club dreaming of winning the league.
 
Genius Me! said:
Yeah, unless he turns into another Gerrard/De Rossi and decides to stay at the club dreaming of winning the league.
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You then make that judgement in the summer, not now.

TBF to Gerrard apart from the illusive league title he's got a decent haul of medals.
 
Well, ambition is completely subjective and so is the fine line between what one wants and what is considered realistically attainable. I just disagreed with the format of your original statement: "IF he were ambitious...", implying he isn't being that at this moment. Guess it turns out to be semantics once more the confuser of forum debates, it's always semantics!

Cheers.
 
Skorenzy said:
Well, ambition is completely subjective and so is the fine line between what one wants and what is considered realistically attainable. I just disagreed with the format of your original statement: "IF he were ambitious...", implying he isn't being that at this moment. Guess it turns out to be semantics once more the confuser of forum debates, it's always semantics!

Cheers.
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No, you're wrong.




;)
 
Athletico will always sell. The entire La Liga is basically bankrupt except the top 2.

We have to, have to get this guy. For once, we have to sign a top talent (okay, RVP aside) and not just let others outbid us.
 
KingMinger22 said:
Athletico will always sell. The entire La Liga is basically bankrupt except the top 2.

We have to, have to get this guy. For once, we have to sign a top talent (okay, RVP aside) and not just let others outbid us.
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Have to agree. The state of our midfield is dire and we need some form of dynamism. Break the bank on this one and get it done this month.
 
Atletico always have to sell. They seldom have to sell mid-season, and this season they've got even less incentive than normal.

The past couple of years have been glorious for Atletico fans - ten years after being relegated, they're back to scaring Real Madrid and bringing home silverware. Two Europa Leagues and a Copa del Rey in the past four years. A possibility that they'll be top of La Liga at the half way point. It's an amazing time for the fans and the players.

I guess what I'm saying is that Koke would have to be an insensitive bastard to leave in January :lol:
Though of course it would be for a very good cause.

However, as I've said before, making our interest clear now won't do us any harm, and may help get him psyched up for the actual buying season.
 
If Arrested development has taught me anything it's that 'Hermano' is brother...
 
I was hoping for this one to happen but, christ, they have an ex-player who is probably one of their best ever as manager. He's not going anywhere anytime soon, is he?
 
I don't think many people realistically thought we'd be able to sign him in this window. Such a big year for him and A.Madrid.
 
Makes sense for him. He's doing well there and we're struggling big time.
 
People need an article to say he won't join us in January?

It was hilarious listening to those on here who thought it was a possibility.
 
Yeah, was never a realistic chance of us getting him this - not this window at least.

They're doing well over there and I hope they do the seemingly impossible....

I'd still like us to take a punt on Herrera - if only Bilboa was a tad more reasonable with their price for a player struggling to make their starting XI at present.
 
Ish84045 said:
Yeah, was never a realistic chance of us getting him this - not this window at least.

They're doing well over there and I hope they do the seemingly impossible....

I'd still like us to take a punt on Herrera - if only Bilboa was a tad more reasonable with their price for a player struggling to make their starting XI at present.
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He plays for them every week now.
 
Reckon this one is a no go at all then, we checked, met the release clause and the player wants to stay.
 
Ish84045 said:
Yeah, haven't been watching Athletic matches much after Bielsa left but read that he's been starting matches again for them recently.

How's his form been? I know he's struggled this season.
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Slow and steady progression. Issue is he's playing as an AM now. I know he's somewhat capable but he's probably more comfortable further back.
 
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