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2024-25 Performances


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5.4 Season Average Rating
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We can't start him every game. He should probably start 75-80% of the games and Casemiro like 50-60%. We are going to be in a lot of trouble with out more midfield help.
Ugarte will rotate with both of them and can come in alongside Casemiro for big games where a defensive line up is needed. Still need another creator in that midfield though.
 
I hate playing this midfield two with barely emphasis on possession. It's why I hoped we'd flog Bruno this summer and move to a midfield three. Mainoo is not made for covering all the space Ten Hag’s tactics leave, which is on EtH.

I don't see how we can ever put a long string of wins together with us having very little control in games.
 
It's a struggle to take in - if you're going for a poor technical unit, they should at least be faster, stronger and just plain frightening in terms of rabid, concerted pressing. Moving as a bloc; a rabid pack of terriers; a plague of locusts; a murder of crows; an unkindness of ravens; a quiver of cobras; a crash of rhinoceros... a something, something that denotes being a threat to all who come into contact... :lol: there's nothing impressive in a Casemiro-Ugarte-Bruno midfield. Nothing they excel at collectively or that overcomes their failings, I feel. Put Ugarte with Fred and someone like Collyer behind them and you at least filled the terrier and aggression remit, even it's still not very good and lacking fundamentals of what makes a midfield unit impressive.... given we don't have Fred, Mount in his place, but ugh, alll the combinations look like trash to me, very substandard for the PL and this team given our attack is bad, and not near special enough to take on the load the midfield doesn't have the quality to produce.

I have read what you wrote, btw, but for me, that's a midfield on a hiding to nothing because it isn't good or competent at anything. Another thing I would mention is the #6 has to be able to track and sway at the base with lots of off the ball running to constantly shore up potential gaps, so despite having two runners ahead, you're gonna see Casemiro flag just trying to keep up, imo.

I'm saying a lot of words to express I think it'd be the last roll of the dice for the manager and the one he'd be sacked for as we fail the collective press and look even worse a football side when we have the ball.

I mean there is a middle ground between what we're showing right now and what you're saying the team 'needs' to have to be 'good'.

You don't necessarily have to be 'good' at something to be effective or practical. You just have to be 'not bad'. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts and all that. Right now a midfield duo of Mainoo and Casemiro (with the caveats of what I've said above that ETH will very likely be playing certain players and formations) is not great at ball winning, controlling the midfield, running box to box or ball progression for a full 90 mins.

Casemiro and Ugarte should in theory give a pretty good defensive base with Bruno/Mount in front of them providing good pressing ahead and/or in the half spaces. If you don't think Ugarte is going to improve some parts of the midfield with his elite ball winning and pitch coverage then that's fine, we'll just have to see if/when he arrives. I also think you're underselling the ball playing ability this duo can have and the help they can provide each other; I don't think it's a coincidence Mainoo and Casemiro both flagged badly towards the end of the game yesterday.

If I have to break it down in the most simplistic way, Mainoo offers lots of nuance and quality but can only do let's say 50 actions a game, whilst I'm hoping Ugarte offers 'average' quality but with 100 actions a game.

As for the points about how good this trio will really be, I think that's the difference between my mindset and yours atm :lol: :(. For my own sake, I've just come to accept we're not going to play a certain way under ETH and unfortunately for Mainoo, the most practical team will be without him for now. Will it be good enough for top 4, i.e the realistic target to keep his job? I don't know but I think he'll have better chances than persisting with what we are doing now.
 
I mean there is a middle ground between what we're showing right now and what you're saying the team 'needs' to have to be 'good'.

You don't necessarily have to be 'good' at something to be effective or practical. You just have to be 'not bad'. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts and all that. Right now a midfield duo of Mainoo and Casemiro (with the caveats of what I've said above that ETH will very likely be playing certain players and formations) is not great at ball winning, controlling the midfield, running box to box or ball progression for a full 90 mins.

Casemiro and Ugarte should in theory give a pretty good defensive base with Bruno/Mount in front of them providing good pressing ahead and/or in the half spaces. If you don't think Ugarte is going to improve some parts of the midfield with his elite ball winning and pitch coverage then that's fine, we'll just have to see if/when he arrives. I also think you're underselling the ball playing ability this duo can have and the help they can provide each other; I don't think it's a coincidence Mainoo and Casemiro both flagged badly towards the end of the game yesterday.

If I have to break it down in the most simplistic way, Mainoo offers lots of nuance and quality but can only do let's say 50 actions a game, whilst I'm hoping Ugarte offers 'average' quality but with 100 actions a game.

As for the points about how good this trio will really be, I think that's the difference between my mindset and yours atm :lol: :(. For my own sake, I've just come to accept we're not going to play a certain way under ETH and unfortunately for Mainoo, the most practical team will be without him for now. Will it be good enough for top 4, i.e the realistic target to keep his job? I don't know but I think he'll have better chances than persisting with what we are doing now.
If you have a runner/terrier and are using him effectively, he's doing one of three things:

- going straight to the threat and winning the ball outright. This type is a one-man army.

- running to the man and ball, slowing him and waiting for assistance to crowd him out whilst giving no vertical space to run into/past him.

- herding and ushering his man into a waiting sweeper-esque player behind him. The last type favouring DLP's greatly as they can immediately turn defence into a wide open attack within a touch and pass.

One man army's are rare and unrealistic and you're mostly getting one or the other of the latter. The second option requires a lot of energy and alertness to meet the man promptly and succinctly and/or reset to nominal positions to do it again and again and again. That's the pack coverage I mentioned before; rabid dogs that are just miserable to play against and stifling in how hard it is to play through them. Not on his life could this version of Casemiro do that job, imo. He was always more a sweeper type collecting with ease whenever a player was corralled into his area of the pitch.

The problem with the third type is they either masterfully progress the ball themselves or they immediately pass it on to someone who will. That's where the midfield dies a death and where you'll find that triumvirate chasing their own tails, cleaning up their own mistakes more than hurting the opposition; with zero connective tissue, the ball has nobody to move it with the swiftness needed to capitalise on winning back in the first place.

I've said this a few times regarding Mainoo and it not needing to be him so long as someone else is capable, but literally nobody else is, which is dire on our account because it's him or nothing, not even a switch to some other.

I'm not dealing in absolutes or extremes, I don't think; it's just not a good collection of players to achieve objectives, be they ball-hunting into collecting or high volume pressures, imo.

The last time we truly played competently through midfield for a number of games without Mainoo was when Eriksen teamed up with Casemiro and even then, Casemiro burned himself out covering for Eriksen, which ultimately cost us because they ended up playing way too many games. You said effective, but as I've said, I don't think they'd even be particularly good at what they'd be expected to be good at.

As ever, would be happy for it to work out, and Mainoo being rotated in and out of the team isn't at all the worst thing in the world, but for me, as I'm envisioning it, it'll hasten everything: Ten Hag's sacking; our need to get Mainoo back into the team; our need for footballers in midfield... perhaps it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. :confused:;)
 
If you have a runner/terrier and are using him effectively, he's doing one of three things:

- going straight to the threat and winning the ball outright. This type is a one-man army.

- running to the man and ball, slowing him and waiting for assistance to crowd him out whilst giving no vertical space to run into/past him.

- herding and ushering his man into a waiting sweeper-esque player behind him. The last type favouring DLP's greatly as they can immediately turn defence into a wide open attack within a touch and pass.

One man army's are rare and unrealistic and you're mostly getting one or the other of the latter. The second option requires a lot of energy and alertness to meet the man promptly and succinctly and/or reset to nominal positions to do it again and again and again. That's the pack coverage I mentioned before; rabid dogs that are just miserable to play against and stifling in how hard it is to play through them. Not on his life could this version of Casemiro do that job, imo. He was always more a sweeper type collecting with ease whenever a player was corralled into his area of the pitch.

The problem with the third type is they either masterfully progress the ball themselves or they immediately pass it on to someone who will. That's where the midfield dies a death and where you'll find that triumvirate chasing their own tails, cleaning up their own mistakes more than hurting the opposition; with zero connective tissue, the ball has nobody to move it with the swiftness needed to capitalise on winning back in the first place.


I've said this a few times regarding Mainoo and it not needing to be him so long as someone else is capable, but literally nobody else is, which is dire on our account because it's him or nothing, not even a switch to some other.

I'm not dealing in absolutes or extremes, I don't think; it's just not a good collection of players to achieve objectives, be they ball-hunting into collecting or high volume pressures, imo.

The last time we truly played competently through midfield for a number of games without Mainoo was when Eriksen teamed up with Casemiro and even then, Casemiro burned himself out covering for Eriksen, which ultimately cost us because they ended up playing way too many games. You said effective, but as I've said, I don't think they'd even be particularly good at what they'd be expected to be good at.

As ever, would be happy for it to work out, and Mainoo being rotated in and out of the team isn't at all the worst thing in the world, but for me, as I'm envisioning it, it'll hasten everything: Ten Hag's sacking; our need to get Mainoo back into the team; our need for footballers in midfield... perhaps it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. :confused:;)

I know you said you don't deal with extremes but why can't Casemiro and Ugarte do the things in bold together and in tandem as a double pivot? They can both harry, get goal side/slow down the momentum and both get on the ball to play quick passes to the likes of Martinez, Dalot, Mazroui, Bruno/Mount and Amad etc, who would be lurking around in those half spaces. Sometimes at the same time and sometimes obviously as a duo with different timings/objectives (winning second or third ball etc). With an Ugarte, it might mean we could get more width out of our full backs (less inversion and more overlaps/vertical movement). There are a lot of intangibles the athletic profile the Uruguayan can potentially bring over a present day Mainoo.

I agree with you on questioning whether it's the required long term quality but I think it's a bit premature and pessimistic to say they can't do it at a good enough level for where we want to be at this time and moment under ETH. I also agree on the 22-23 season where we played best with Eriksen but we don't necessarily need to be playing through midfield today because our midfield doesn't midfield and ETH doesn't know how to midfield (or get the best out of Mainoo). Therefore, for the sake of practicality, whilst Ugarte is perhaps not the metronome we want, he can still fill in a different gap and offer us another tactical profile.

Mainoo coming on to influence games and/or starting once we have 'secured' midfield (in my imagining) is not the worse for our football or his progression. Anyways, we will see, I'm just making up these logical conclusions because I'm tired Robbie. Let's revisit this in a month or so :angel:
 
I know you said you don't deal with extremes but why can't Casemiro and Ugarte do the things in bold together and in tandem as a double pivot? They can both harry, get goal side/slow down the momentum and both get on the ball to play quick passes to the likes of Martinez, Dalot, Mazroui, Bruno/Mount and Amad etc, who would be lurking around in those half spaces. Sometimes at the same time and sometimes obviously as a duo with different timings/objectives (winning second or third ball etc). With an Ugarte, it might mean we could get more width out of our full backs (less inversion and more overlaps/vertical movement). There are a lot of intangibles the athletic profile the Uruguayan can potentially bring over a present day Mainoo.

I agree with you on questioning whether it's the required long term quality but I think it's a bit premature and pessimistic to say they can't do it at a good enough level for where we want to be at this time and moment under ETH. I also agree on the 22-23 season where we played best with Eriksen but we don't necessarily need to be playing through midfield today because our midfield doesn't midfield and ETH doesn't know how to midfield (or get the best out of Mainoo). Therefore, for the sake of practicality, whilst Ugarte is perhaps not the metronome we want, he can still fill in a different gap and offer us another tactical profile.

Mainoo coming on to influence games and/or starting once we have 'secured' midfield (in my imagining) is not the worse for our football or his progression. Anyways, we will see, I'm just making up these logical conclusions because I'm tired Robbie. Let's revisit this in a month or so :angel:
Sure. Maybe I'm being pessimistic. Maybe it works a treat. On paper, it looks really bad to me.
 
I hate playing this midfield two with barely emphasis on possession. It's why I hoped we'd flog Bruno this summer and move to a midfield three. Mainoo is not made for covering all the space Ten Hag’s tactics leave, which is on EtH.

I don't see how we can ever put a long string of wins together with us having very little control in games.
Brighton also played a midfield two, but looked more in control.
 
Brighton also played a midfield two, but looked more in control.
They had less possession and had big gaps at the back, United just didn't take advantage. They gained control towards the end of the game which is the period when the base of our midfield ran out of steam and Ten Hag made his weird subs.
 
I missed the last 20min but thought he was really good. A well rounded performance.

His running out of legs for the last 15 min could be a fitness thing but I think it more likely the crazy demands ETH puts on his midfielders.

Obsession with the press, followed by having to chase back when press doesn't work, to cover that gap between midfield and a deep backline is knackering players.
 

Was really impressed by his defensive work against Brighton when he still had the stamina. Seems like he's taken a lot of the feedback on board. However it seemed like Brighton were able to successfully target and nullify him more often that we'd like.

It's clear though that Casemiro and him cannot last more than 65 minutes, so we really need to bring in 2 quality midfielders whom we're comfortable with getting regular minutes.
 
Special player. Finding him the right partner is rightfully an INEOS priority. I think Ugarte is a really good choice.
 
Was really impressed by his defensive work against Brighton when he still had the stamina. Seems like he's taken a lot of the feedback on board. However it seemed like Brighton were able to successfully target and nullify him more often that we'd like.

It's clear though that Casemiro and him cannot last more than 65 minutes, so we really need to bring in 2 quality midfielders whom we're comfortable with getting regular minutes.
Theres probably an element of the pair of them exacerbating the problem for the other. If you brought Ugarte on 60 mins to give fresh legs and take a bit of the pressure off it'd be easier to finish out the match
 
Theres probably an element of the pair of them exacerbating the problem for the other. If you brought Ugarte on 60 mins to give fresh legs and take a bit of the pressure off it'd be easier to finish out the match
Possibly. I personally think the tactics play a bigger role. The constant high press with the midfielders is taxing especially if unsuccessful. And it's clear the retreat to the default 4222 defensive shape is important so we can't just have 1 DM unless we want a repeat of last season. Unless maybe Ugarte can make the 4141 work.

Regardless, we really need competent alternatives for both spots.
 
Absolute boss at times, but not 100% consistant yet. I think he'll just become better and better throughout the season.
 
Don't think he's yet the midfielder to build the team around yet, think we overrate him massively. He's had one assist in his PL career so far as a midfielder who isn't a DM.

It's obvious he's got huge potential, and in some aspects of his game he might even be of world class ability (ball retention, press resistance, dribbling, linking play in tight positions, 1 vs 1 duels when near the opposition) but there is still so much to grow.

This is a player who should be the 4th CM, getting a lot of minutes and growing into that world class player.

It's just that Mount is pretty crap, I wouldnt be against us going for a world class midfielder next year who is really a metronome passer with the ability to create from deep. They're scarce though.
 
I still don’t see the hype with this guy. Utd have players who you could watch for 45 minutes and be sure that they are genuinely top tier (Amad and Garnacho, to name a couple). But although Mainoo doesn’t have any really serious weaknesses, he’s not overly quick, or overly strong. His passing is very good I think, but not excellent. He doesn’t have that height advantage that allows you to score goals from nothing. He’s a very confident finisher from what I’ve seen, and as I say he can pass well and is good in tight spaces. But in terms of being the ‘future of the club’ in midfield I can’t understand the certainty that some on here feel. Reminds me a bit of when some on this board were debating whether Rashford was better than Mbappe. He seems like a genuinely nice, humble guy though, he has the right attitude succeed, certainly a better attitude than Pogba, who was IMHO more talented.
 
I hate playing this midfield two with barely emphasis on possession. It's why I hoped we'd flog Bruno this summer and move to a midfield three. Mainoo is not made for covering all the space Ten Hag’s tactics leave, which is on EtH.

I don't see how we can ever put a long string of wins together with us having very little control in games.
It feels so obvious, I hate this style of play.
 
I still don’t see the hype with this guy. Utd have players who you could watch for 45 minutes and be sure that they are genuinely top tier (Amad and Garnacho, to name a couple). But although Mainoo doesn’t have any really serious weaknesses, he’s not overly quick, or overly strong. His passing is very good I think, but not excellent. He doesn’t have that height advantage that allows you to score goals from nothing. He’s a very confident finisher from what I’ve seen, and as I say he can pass well and is good in tight spaces. But in terms of being the ‘future of the club’ in midfield I can’t understand the certainty that some on here feel. Reminds me a bit of when some on this board were debating whether Rashford was better than Mbappe. He seems like a genuinely nice, humble guy though, he has the right attitude succeed, certainly a better attitude than Pogba, who was IMHO more talented.
Players who are elite at this in football are very difficult to find, particularly those who can dribble as well as him. It's even more rare to find a teenager in midfield who can do this.

He'd shine in any possession based team, but because of the way he's being used He's being judged by attributes that are simply not his game. In my humble opinion he's far, far more talented than the likes of Garnacho and Amad. I would eventually like to see us play a three in the middle without Bruno and push him a little further up, he should not be picking up the ball from the centre backs.
 
I still don’t see the hype with this guy. Utd have players who you could watch for 45 minutes and be sure that they are genuinely top tier (Amad and Garnacho, to name a couple). But although Mainoo doesn’t have any really serious weaknesses, he’s not overly quick, or overly strong. His passing is very good I think, but not excellent. He doesn’t have that height advantage that allows you to score goals from nothing. He’s a very confident finisher from what I’ve seen, and as I say he can pass well and is good in tight spaces. But in terms of being the ‘future of the club’ in midfield I can’t understand the certainty that some on here feel. Reminds me a bit of when some on this board were debating whether Rashford was better than Mbappe. He seems like a genuinely nice, humble guy though, he has the right attitude succeed, certainly a better attitude than Pogba, who was IMHO more talented.

He's being under deployed by the manager, keeps being shoehorned into the double pivot but he's a player that excels in the areas you would typically find a number 10.

I genuinely believe that Erik Ten Hag is in the lower tier of managers when it comes to respective tactical nuance he proves it time and time again through improper selection and the fact United change identity from season to season, subsequently Mainoo excelled in a midfield that was subjected to the worst system I have seen of any United manager in recent history last season.

If Kobbie plays in front of two 6's he does even better or as an 8 in the midfield three, the exact role Odegaard has occupied at Arsenal in selective fixtures. The issue here however is Bruno Fernandes involvement and this proposes a limitation to how to effectively shape the midfield.
 
I still don’t see the hype with this guy. Utd have players who you could watch for 45 minutes and be sure that they are genuinely top tier (Amad and Garnacho, to name a couple). But although Mainoo doesn’t have any really serious weaknesses, he’s not overly quick, or overly strong. His passing is very good I think, but not excellent. He doesn’t have that height advantage that allows you to score goals from nothing. He’s a very confident finisher from what I’ve seen, and as I say he can pass well and is good in tight spaces. But in terms of being the ‘future of the club’ in midfield I can’t understand the certainty that some on here feel. Reminds me a bit of when some on this board were debating whether Rashford was better than Mbappe. He seems like a genuinely nice, humble guy though, he has the right attitude succeed, certainly a better attitude than Pogba, who was IMHO more talented.
His elite traits are his close control and dribbling abilities combined with his awareness, agility, balance, and strength on the ball. Makes him extremely press resistant wherever he is on the pitch. Of course 2nd half he tires so his strength wanes but that'll improve in time.

Wherever he is though you can trust giving the ball to him that it won't be wasted. He also has a great knack for big moments in big games so far in his career.
 
Players who are elite at this in football are very difficult to find, particularly those who can dribble as well as him. It's even more rare to find a teenager in midfield who can do this.

He'd shine in any possession based team, but because of the way he's being used He's being judged by attributes that are simply not his game. In my humble opinion he's far, far more talented than the likes of Garnacho and Amad. I would eventually like to see us play a three in the middle without Bruno and push him a little further up, he should not be picking up the ball from the centre backs.

It's funny how this observation which is accurate is consistently observed but negated by the coaches, United's ability to play as a cohesive team is limited by Bruno's influence.

Players who typically discipline themselves to the number 10 zones but have no capability to drop deeper Mount, Ozil, DVDB i'm not comparing the quality of them individually but typically they have a short-shelf life the more the game advances tactically.

In the same fashion I feel United have hit a ceiling with the current manager it represents a similar dynamic with Bruno, you cannot change the counter attacking DNA with players like him and Rashford in the starting 11.
 
To echo the above posters:

Mainoo has some absolute elite level fundamental traits to his game. He’s a phenomenal ball carrier, he’s insanely resistant under pressure, and he understands the value of retaining and recycling the ball. His biggest strengths are not normally traits you see in English young central midfielders. He’s a little on the slower side and he struggles to cover ground, but he’s really made strides in the defensive side of the game and this season (super early sample size) has been a bit of a defensive duelling monster.

However, it’s now on him (and more importantly the structure and the coaches around him) to improve on the flaws in his game to round out. He needs to get better at demanding the ball more. He needs to be a little more expansive with his passing. He needs to not just wander into space off the ball and involve himself a little more.

Aside, @NicolaSacco — Paul Pogba was the most talented midfielder in the world at some point, I don’t think it’s a slight to not be as talented as him.
 
It's funny how this observation which is accurate is consistently observed but negated by the coaches, United's ability to play as a cohesive team is limited by Bruno's influence.

Players who typically discipline themselves to the number 10 zones but have no capability to drop deeper Mount, Ozil, DVDB i'm not comparing the quality of them individually but typically they have a short-shelf life the more the game advances tactically.

In the same fashion I feel United have hit a ceiling with the current manager it represents a similar dynamic with Bruno, you cannot change the counter attacking DNA with players like him and Rashford in the starting 11.
It’s a sad truth and something a fair few of us have said for a while, and is now becoming more of a mainstream view. For all of his individual qualities, Fernandes does limit the ultimate tactical scope of the side. I would happily let him (and Mount) go if the club could be trusted to operate in a balanced midfield three and a higher focus on retention and ball circulation.
 
It's funny how this observation which is accurate is consistently observed but negated by the coaches, United's ability to play as a cohesive team is limited by Bruno's influence.

Players who typically discipline themselves to the number 10 zones but have no capability to drop deeper Mount, Ozil, DVDB i'm not comparing the quality of them individually but typically they have a short-shelf life the more the game advances tactically.

In the same fashion I feel United have hit a ceiling with the current manager it represents a similar dynamic with Bruno, you cannot change the counter attacking DNA with players like him and Rashford in the starting 11.
It's not a coincidence that United have largely been a counter attacking team when built around Bruno and Rashford. It's a style of play that's built to their strengths.
 
To echo the above posters:

Mainoo has some absolute elite level fundamental traits to his game. He’s a phenomenal ball carrier, he’s insanely resistant under pressure, and he understands the value of retaining and recycling the ball. His biggest strengths are not normally traits you see in English young central midfielders. He’s a little on the slower side and he struggles to cover ground, but he’s really made strides in the defensive side of the game and this season (super early sample size) has been a bit of a defensive duelling monster.

However, it’s now on him (and more importantly the structure and the coaches around him) to improve on the flaws in his game to round out. He needs to get better at demanding the ball more. He needs to be a little more expansive with his passing. He needs to not just wander into space off the ball and involve himself a little more.

Aside, @NicolaSacco — Paul Pogba was the most talented midfielder in the world at some point, I don’t think it’s a slight to not be as talented as him.
Replying to you personally, but the others in general. I agree that we haven’t seen (either with Utd OR England) a system that is set up to play his strengths. Whereas you could argue the two players I listed as potentially becoming elite; Amad and Garnacho, probably are helped by Utd’s style, especially with a significant number of counter attacks. I may just be plain wrong, it will be very interesting to see why he’s like (potentially post- ten Hag) if you end up playing a more Guardiola type system. We shall see. And yeah, fair point about Pogba, at one point he looked like he could go on and become a once in a generation player, but a mixture of bad luck and bad attitude scuppered that.
 
Replying to you personally, but the others in general. I agree that we haven’t seen (either with Utd OR England) a system that is set up to play his strengths. Whereas you could argue the two players I listed as potentially becoming elite; Amad and Garnacho, probably are helped by Utd’s style, especially with a significant number of counter attacks. I may just be plain wrong, it will be very interesting to see why he’s like (potentially post- ten Hag) if you end up playing a more Guardiola type system. We shall see. And yeah, fair point about Pogba, at one point he looked like he could go on and become a once in a generation player, but a mixture of bad luck and bad attitude scuppered that.
In assessment, it's not sacrilegious to look Mainoo's way expectant of seeing a player you can determine is as special as the clamour around him warrants.

Depending on what you like or deem important in each type of midfielder, there'll be aspects to his game that impress or underwhelm, perhaps a smattering of both. What most would conclude is that whatever he is isn't the finished article; his final position on the pitch hasn't even been consensus yet with some believing he should be a #10, others an eventual #8, and others still, a #6 who is the first receiver and ball progessor.

The truth is, he isn't particularly definable right now and exhibits traits across all 3 major positions in midfield as well as reasons why he currently lacks in each position:

#6 - he is not yet comfortable playing expansive passes over distances beyond 20 yards or so. He did this effortlessly in the unders but has not yet shown any desire to do so extensively in the PL. Also at #6, whilst being the first receiver is great for the team - as it assures solid and dependable ball progression - it can be perceived as a waste of Mainoo's connective ability and inherent ease with ball carriage straight through midfield.

Mainoo has some De Jong traits, but they are fundamentally different players, and whilst De Jong is in his element affecting the game from deep, Mainoo currently does not have anything like the stamina or certainty of purpose (De Jong knows exactly what he's going to do with the ball before it even gets to him, and driving into and through congested midfields is something he does with no effort or exertion) to play that role optimally. De Jong can make bursting runs repeatedly and throughout 90mins, Mainoo would be good for maybe 4, tops and would be out of gas if he had to go on a repeat run before recovering from the first.

#8. Massive issues with stamina. #8 is the most active and perpetual and demands the most stamina. Mainoo cannot complete an all-action #8 performance and there is almost guaranteed to be in a distinct decline in performance from 1st to 2nd half. His current window is 60-70 minutes, and after that, he'll be a shadow of himself.

#10. Movement and certainty of purpose. More so than even an #8 or #6, the #10's worth anything have their head on swivel and are switched on to their surroundings, knowing exactly what they will or can do proactively or reactively as a situation demands. This is the sharpest mind on the pitch, and it should show. Every amble or drift is supposed to be packed with intent to suddenly explode into action, be that a sudden pass between the lines, an explosive run, even over a tiny distance (simply to create that window of opportunity to pass, shoot or open up space) and Mainoo, whilst having the ability, doesn’t think or act like a #10 and is currently far too passive and retentive (perhaps reticent) to be one.

So in each position, he can be said to be lacking in key aspects that pure midfielders, who we can say are and will always be one thing first and foremost, do not.

Others have mentioned some of Mainoo's spiking attributes, but his biggest ability by far, imo, is his combination: passing, dribbling and movement in tandems, trios or even 4-man chains. This is where Mainoo is already one of the best players active and where his wheelhouse is. Put him in a team with like-minded and equally skilled combination players and he is unplayable until his stamina depletes. This is the Mainoo that there's a fear of losing down the road as clubs that actively seek that kind of player circle and will tempt him with offers throughout his career.

Put Mainoo in a team that plays combination football and a lot of his flaws are masked and what he excels at becomes undeniable. The few times England managed any chain of worth, Mainoo was a key component and it will be the exact same at Manchester United.

The biggest failing of the club this summer has been in not facilitating his game and continuing to have him a plough a lonely furrow that has him rely on base fundamentals that revolve around athleticism that don't just magically appear - his stamina should improve over a period of time, but not in a small window where he had barely any downtime.

Pogba isn't at all the same kind of player. What he is was always clear: an outrageously skilled individual who actually struggled to play consummately in a team. Mainoo and Pogba would actually be better paired, one bringing razzmatazz, and the other quietly connecting the team and being a constant thorn for the opposition.
 
In assessment, it's not sacrilegious to look Mainoo's way expectant of seeing a player you can determine is as special as the clamour around him warrants.

Depending on what you like or deem important in each type of midfielder, there'll be aspects to his game that impress or underwhelm, perhaps a smattering of both. What most would conclude is that whatever he is isn't the finished article; his final position on the pitch hasn't even been consensus yet with some believing he should be a #10, others an eventual #8, and others still, a #6 who is the first receiver and ball progessor.

The truth is, he isn't particularly definable right now and exhibits traits across all 3 major positions in midfield as well as reasons why he currently lacks in each position:

#6 - he is not yet comfortable playing expansive passes over distances beyond 20 yards or so. He did this effortlessly in the unders but has not yet shown any desire to do so extensively in the PL. Also at #6, whilst being the first receiver is great for the team - as it assures solid and dependable ball progression - it can be perceived as a waste of Mainoo's connective ability and inherent ease with ball carriage straight through midfield. Mainoo has some De Jong traits, but they are fundamentally different players, and whilst De Jong is in his element affecting the game from deep, Mainoo currently does not have anything like the stamina or certainty of purpose (De Jong knows exactly what he's going to do with the ball before it even gets to him, and driving into and through congested midfields is something he does with no effort or exertion) to play that role optimally. De Jong can make bursting runs repeatedly and throughout 90mins, Mainoo would be good for maybe 4, tops and would be out of gas if he had to go on a repeat run before recovering from the first.

#8. Massive issues with stamina. #8 is the most active and perpetual and demands the most stamina. Mainoo cannot complete an all-action #8 performance and there is almost guaranteed to be in a distinct decline in performance from 1st to 2nd half. His current window is 60-70 minutes, and after that, he'll be a shadow of himself.

#10. Movement and certainty of purpose. More so than even an #8 or #6, the #10's worth anything have their head on swivel and are switched on to their surroundings, knowing exactly what they will or can do proactively or reactively as a situation demands. This is the sharpest mind on the pitch, and it should show. Every amble or drift is supposed to be packed with intent to suddenly explode into action, be that a sudden pass between the lines, an explosive run, even over a tiny distance (simply to create that window if opportunity to pass, shoot or open up space) and Mainoo, whilst having the ability, doesn’t think or act like a #10 and is currently far to passive and retentive to be one.

So in each position, he can be said to be lacking in key aspects that pure midfielders, who we can say are and will always be one thing first and foremost do not.

Others have mentioned some of Mainoo's spiking attributes, but his biggest ability by far, imo, is his combination passing, dribbling and movement in tandems, trios or even 4-man chains. This is where Mainoo is already one of the best players active and where his wheelhouse is. Put him in a team with like-minded and equally skilled combination players and he is unplayable until his stamina depletes. This is the Mainoo that there's a fear of losing down the road as clubs that actively seek that kind of player circle and will tempt him with offers throughout his career.

Put Mainoo in a team that plays combination football and a lot of his flaws are masked and what he excels at becomes undeniable. The few times England managed any chain of worth Mainoo was a key component and it will be the exact same at Manchester United. The biggest failing of the club this summer has been in not facilitating his game and continuing to have him a plough a lonely furrow that has him rely on base fundamentals that revolve around athleticism that don't just magically appear - his stamina should improve over a period of time, but not in a small window where he had barely any downtime.

Pogba isn't at all the same kind of player. What he is was always clear: an outrageously skilled individual who actually struggled to play consummately in a team. Mainoo and Pogba would actually be better paired, one bringing razzmatazz, and the other quietly connecting the team and being a constant thorn for the opposition.
Great post.

I agree with most of it but stamina can be worked on. We must not forget the likes of Mainoo, Amad, Garnacho, Rasmus are all essentially kids and are far from their physical prime. What INEOS should do is put them in the most advanced physical training program on the planet and get the best trainers snd equipment. Ultimately I think Mainoo develops his stamina and strength and becomes an 8. Our version of Modric.
 
time to unleash him. Ugarte will make him reach another level.
 
Great post.

I agree with most of it but stamina can be worked on. We must not forget the likes of Mainoo, Amad, Garnacho, Rasmus are all essentially kids and are far from their physical prime. What INEOS should do is put them in the most advanced physical training program on the planet and get the best trainers snd equipment. Ultimately I think Mainoo develops his stamina and strength and becomes an 8. Our version of Modric.
He's very, very young for a PL midfielder in the thick of the action having to run and track the most athletic midfielders in league football, and I think it shows as it's rare to see midfielders in his age range even holding their own, let alone being victors in physical contests or battles of attrition. If you're planning against him, you can seek to sinply run him into the ground and have him running on fumes inside 65ish minutes.

Our manager is supposed to put preventative measures in to stop this.

But if you ask me, whilst his ability is elite, his physical development is very much the norm, and we'll see him round out to a proper athlete at around 21 or 22 - I doubt it can be accelerated or forced along, personally. What I do think, though, is that in a settled team and with more experience, Mainoo will learm how to pace himself and not be wrecked so early, so often.

I also think ten Hag is on borrowed time, and the next guy will respect midfield more, which will benefit Mainoo and his tank, too.
 
In assessment, it's not sacrilegious to look Mainoo's way expectant of seeing a player you can determine is as special as the clamour around him warrants.

Depending on what you like or deem important in each type of midfielder, there'll be aspects to his game that impress or underwhelm, perhaps a smattering of both. What most would conclude is that whatever he is isn't the finished article; his final position on the pitch hasn't even been consensus yet with some believing he should be a #10, others an eventual #8, and others still, a #6 who is the first receiver and ball progessor.

The truth is, he isn't particularly definable right now and exhibits traits across all 3 major positions in midfield as well as reasons why he currently lacks in each position:

#6 - he is not yet comfortable playing expansive passes over distances beyond 20 yards or so. He did this effortlessly in the unders but has not yet shown any desire to do so extensively in the PL. Also at #6, whilst being the first receiver is great for the team - as it assures solid and dependable ball progression - it can be perceived as a waste of Mainoo's connective ability and inherent ease with ball carriage straight through midfield.

Mainoo has some De Jong traits, but they are fundamentally different players, and whilst De Jong is in his element affecting the game from deep, Mainoo currently does not have anything like the stamina or certainty of purpose (De Jong knows exactly what he's going to do with the ball before it even gets to him, and driving into and through congested midfields is something he does with no effort or exertion) to play that role optimally. De Jong can make bursting runs repeatedly and throughout 90mins, Mainoo would be good for maybe 4, tops and would be out of gas if he had to go on a repeat run before recovering from the first.

#8. Massive issues with stamina. #8 is the most active and perpetual and demands the most stamina. Mainoo cannot complete an all-action #8 performance and there is almost guaranteed to be in a distinct decline in performance from 1st to 2nd half. His current window is 60-70 minutes, and after that, he'll be a shadow of himself.

#10. Movement and certainty of purpose. More so than even an #8 or #6, the #10's worth anything have their head on swivel and are switched on to their surroundings, knowing exactly what they will or can do proactively or reactively as a situation demands. This is the sharpest mind on the pitch, and it should show. Every amble or drift is supposed to be packed with intent to suddenly explode into action, be that a sudden pass between the lines, an explosive run, even over a tiny distance (simply to create that window of opportunity to pass, shoot or open up space) and Mainoo, whilst having the ability, doesn’t think or act like a #10 and is currently far too passive and retentive (perhaps reticent) to be one.

So in each position, he can be said to be lacking in key aspects that pure midfielders, who we can say are and will always be one thing first and foremost, do not.

Others have mentioned some of Mainoo's spiking attributes, but his biggest ability by far, imo, is his combination: passing, dribbling and movement in tandems, trios or even 4-man chains. This is where Mainoo is already one of the best players active and where his wheelhouse is. Put him in a team with like-minded and equally skilled combination players and he is unplayable until his stamina depletes. This is the Mainoo that there's a fear of losing down the road as clubs that actively seek that kind of player circle and will tempt him with offers throughout his career.

Put Mainoo in a team that plays combination football and a lot of his flaws are masked and what he excels at becomes undeniable. The few times England managed any chain of worth, Mainoo was a key component and it will be the exact same at Manchester United.

The biggest failing of the club this summer has been in not facilitating his game and continuing to have him a plough a lonely furrow that has him rely on base fundamentals that revolve around athleticism that don't just magically appear - his stamina should improve over a period of time, but not in a small window where he had barely any downtime.

Pogba isn't at all the same kind of player. What he is was always clear: an outrageously skilled individual who actually struggled to play consummately in a team. Mainoo and Pogba would actually be better paired, one bringing razzmatazz, and the other quietly connecting the team and being a constant thorn for the opposition.
This is a great post.
 
In assessment, it's not sacrilegious to look Mainoo's way expectant of seeing a player you can determine is as special as the clamour around him warrants.

Depending on what you like or deem important in each type of midfielder, there'll be aspects to his game that impress or underwhelm, perhaps a smattering of both. What most would conclude is that whatever he is isn't the finished article; his final position on the pitch hasn't even been consensus yet with some believing he should be a #10, others an eventual #8, and others still, a #6 who is the first receiver and ball progessor.

The truth is, he isn't particularly definable right now and exhibits traits across all 3 major positions in midfield as well as reasons why he currently lacks in each position:

#6 - he is not yet comfortable playing expansive passes over distances beyond 20 yards or so. He did this effortlessly in the unders but has not yet shown any desire to do so extensively in the PL. Also at #6, whilst being the first receiver is great for the team - as it assures solid and dependable ball progression - it can be perceived as a waste of Mainoo's connective ability and inherent ease with ball carriage straight through midfield.

Mainoo has some De Jong traits, but they are fundamentally different players, and whilst De Jong is in his element affecting the game from deep, Mainoo currently does not have anything like the stamina or certainty of purpose (De Jong knows exactly what he's going to do with the ball before it even gets to him, and driving into and through congested midfields is something he does with no effort or exertion) to play that role optimally. De Jong can make bursting runs repeatedly and throughout 90mins, Mainoo would be good for maybe 4, tops and would be out of gas if he had to go on a repeat run before recovering from the first.

#8. Massive issues with stamina. #8 is the most active and perpetual and demands the most stamina. Mainoo cannot complete an all-action #8 performance and there is almost guaranteed to be in a distinct decline in performance from 1st to 2nd half. His current window is 60-70 minutes, and after that, he'll be a shadow of himself.

#10. Movement and certainty of purpose. More so than even an #8 or #6, the #10's worth anything have their head on swivel and are switched on to their surroundings, knowing exactly what they will or can do proactively or reactively as a situation demands. This is the sharpest mind on the pitch, and it should show. Every amble or drift is supposed to be packed with intent to suddenly explode into action, be that a sudden pass between the lines, an explosive run, even over a tiny distance (simply to create that window of opportunity to pass, shoot or open up space) and Mainoo, whilst having the ability, doesn’t think or act like a #10 and is currently far too passive and retentive (perhaps reticent) to be one.

So in each position, he can be said to be lacking in key aspects that pure midfielders, who we can say are and will always be one thing first and foremost, do not.

Others have mentioned some of Mainoo's spiking attributes, but his biggest ability by far, imo, is his combination: passing, dribbling and movement in tandems, trios or even 4-man chains. This is where Mainoo is already one of the best players active and where his wheelhouse is. Put him in a team with like-minded and equally skilled combination players and he is unplayable until his stamina depletes. This is the Mainoo that there's a fear of losing down the road as clubs that actively seek that kind of player circle and will tempt him with offers throughout his career.

Put Mainoo in a team that plays combination football and a lot of his flaws are masked and what he excels at becomes undeniable. The few times England managed any chain of worth, Mainoo was a key component and it will be the exact same at Manchester United.

The biggest failing of the club this summer has been in not facilitating his game and continuing to have him a plough a lonely furrow that has him rely on base fundamentals that revolve around athleticism that don't just magically appear - his stamina should improve over a period of time, but not in a small window where he had barely any downtime.

Pogba isn't at all the same kind of player. What he is was always clear: an outrageously skilled individual who actually struggled to play consummately in a team. Mainoo and Pogba would actually be better paired, one bringing razzmatazz, and the other quietly connecting the team and being a constant thorn for the opposition.
I think I agree with every sentence of this, fair play to you!
 
I think what is even more bothersome is how much work he wants the midfield to do on both sides of the ball. Great sides with great coaches pick a lane and facilitate it and make rest defence just as important as their primary objective. You can’t go like the clappers both sides of the ball without consequences and it’s no surprise we rarely see out games with the midfield fresh and intact. Cumulatively, you either need a massive squad to stave off exhaustion, or you’re just going to be wrecked earlier than most, particularly those using their midfields properly.
I wonder if there's a stat out there about distant covered and high intensity runs per 90. Just to see if what we think is happening matches up with the data. I'm not convinced our midfield is necessarily working harder than most.
I agree though that we need to see more of the ball and have better control of games.
I also reckon that Mainoo still looks abit unfit. As to be expected giving he's had zero preseason.
 
He's very, very young for a PL midfielder in the thick of the action having to run and track the most athletic midfielders in league football, and I think it shows as it's rare to see midfielders in his age range even holding their own, let alone being victors in physical contests or battles of attrition. If you're planning against him, you can seek to sinply run him into the ground and have him running on fumes inside 65ish minutes.

Our manager is supposed to put preventative measures in to stop this.

But if you ask me, whilst his ability is elite, his physical development is very much the norm, and we'll see him round out to a proper athlete at around 21 or 22 - I doubt it can be accelerated or forced along, personally. What I do think, though, is that in a settled team and with more experience, Mainoo will learm how to pace himself and not be wrecked so early, so often.

I also think ten Hag is on borrowed time, and the next guy will respect midfield more, which will benefit Mainoo and his tank, too.

The euros this summer cost him some valuable off-season time in the gym to help his athleticism. Next summer will be huge for him.
 
In assessment, it's not sacrilegious to look Mainoo's way expectant of seeing a player you can determine is as special as the clamour around him warrants.

Depending on what you like or deem important in each type of midfielder, there'll be aspects to his game that impress or underwhelm, perhaps a smattering of both. What most would conclude is that whatever he is isn't the finished article; his final position on the pitch hasn't even been consensus yet with some believing he should be a #10, others an eventual #8, and others still, a #6 who is the first receiver and ball progessor.

The truth is, he isn't particularly definable right now and exhibits traits across all 3 major positions in midfield as well as reasons why he currently lacks in each position:

#6 - he is not yet comfortable playing expansive passes over distances beyond 20 yards or so. He did this effortlessly in the unders but has not yet shown any desire to do so extensively in the PL. Also at #6, whilst being the first receiver is great for the team - as it assures solid and dependable ball progression - it can be perceived as a waste of Mainoo's connective ability and inherent ease with ball carriage straight through midfield.

Mainoo has some De Jong traits, but they are fundamentally different players, and whilst De Jong is in his element affecting the game from deep, Mainoo currently does not have anything like the stamina or certainty of purpose (De Jong knows exactly what he's going to do with the ball before it even gets to him, and driving into and through congested midfields is something he does with no effort or exertion) to play that role optimally. De Jong can make bursting runs repeatedly and throughout 90mins, Mainoo would be good for maybe 4, tops and would be out of gas if he had to go on a repeat run before recovering from the first.

#8. Massive issues with stamina. #8 is the most active and perpetual and demands the most stamina. Mainoo cannot complete an all-action #8 performance and there is almost guaranteed to be in a distinct decline in performance from 1st to 2nd half. His current window is 60-70 minutes, and after that, he'll be a shadow of himself.

#10. Movement and certainty of purpose. More so than even an #8 or #6, the #10's worth anything have their head on swivel and are switched on to their surroundings, knowing exactly what they will or can do proactively or reactively as a situation demands. This is the sharpest mind on the pitch, and it should show. Every amble or drift is supposed to be packed with intent to suddenly explode into action, be that a sudden pass between the lines, an explosive run, even over a tiny distance (simply to create that window of opportunity to pass, shoot or open up space) and Mainoo, whilst having the ability, doesn’t think or act like a #10 and is currently far too passive and retentive (perhaps reticent) to be one.

So in each position, he can be said to be lacking in key aspects that pure midfielders, who we can say are and will always be one thing first and foremost, do not.

Others have mentioned some of Mainoo's spiking attributes, but his biggest ability by far, imo, is his combination: passing, dribbling and movement in tandems, trios or even 4-man chains. This is where Mainoo is already one of the best players active and where his wheelhouse is. Put him in a team with like-minded and equally skilled combination players and he is unplayable until his stamina depletes. This is the Mainoo that there's a fear of losing down the road as clubs that actively seek that kind of player circle and will tempt him with offers throughout his career.

Put Mainoo in a team that plays combination football and a lot of his flaws are masked and what he excels at becomes undeniable. The few times England managed any chain of worth, Mainoo was a key component and it will be the exact same at Manchester United.

The biggest failing of the club this summer has been in not facilitating his game and continuing to have him a plough a lonely furrow that has him rely on base fundamentals that revolve around athleticism that don't just magically appear - his stamina should improve over a period of time, but not in a small window where he had barely any downtime.

Pogba isn't at all the same kind of player. What he is was always clear: an outrageously skilled individual who actually struggled to play consummately in a team. Mainoo and Pogba would actually be better paired, one bringing razzmatazz, and the other quietly connecting the team and being a constant thorn for the opposition.
Mods, we got a post that needs liking!

Personally, with regards to the bolded part, I think he's exceptional at exactly that. He also is exceptional at dribbling, and can make space for others.

I hope we sack Ten Hag sooner rather than later and move for a manager who actually wants to play with the ball. There is improvement but I don't actually think it's all that impressive, we're just going to end up with a feckload of injuries.