You appear to have answered this questions well before the 12-18 month timeframe. Bravo.
Can I have Saturday's lottery numbers as well?
Klopp Confirmed Liverpool Manager
- Thread starter RedMachine03
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Can I have Saturday's lottery numbers as well?
Not with the schedule ahead I think. Even English media aren't that ignorant.
And their managers are overrated anyway.
Regularly?
How is losing to Bayern and Real proving the point that they weren't a european force? Especially after those games were close as feck.
Also they played Real 4 (!) times the season before and always went out as the well deserved winner. Hell, they went out of the group stages in a group with Real, City and Ajax unbeaten!
They are regularly CL semi finalists these days. The 4th place is usually up for grabs. These three teams are the dominant force in European football.
When minutiae is pored over to the extent that people are semantically trying to prove why Klopp aint that good you know he probably is.
You can get Liverpool at 5/2 to make the top 4. Go ahead and waste your money.
Real? No way are they are european force. Only made it to one final in the last 5 years.
What have I tweaked?
Mainz were only in one real relegation battle in the few seasons preceding his appointment there, even having a decent go at promotion in one of them, which is at odds with claims on here that they were battling relegation every season before he got the job.
Mainz were also only in the top flight for two seasons before succumbing to relegation in the third, which again, is at odds with claims that he kept them there for years and years.
People like to harp on about him doing well to get them there for the first time ever, but it has repeatedly been ignored that Augsburg climbed from the 4th tier to establish themselves in the top flight (for the first time ever) without suffering any relegation set-backs at all.
Then we're on to Dortmund. Reaching a single final does not constitute becoming a European force, which is another claim made on here.
There are obvious fundamental disagreements in what constitutes successful seasons here. I don't believe you can call his 5th and 6th placed seasons with Dortmund, or his 4th placed seasons in the second tier with Mainz successful. The bar for Mainz, in my opinion, is set by their promotion and 11th placed finish in their first season in the top flight. The bar for Dortmund set by their success domestically and reaching a CL final.
I'll repeat myself again because this seems to be getting ignored every time I get a response. Klopp is a good manager. He did very well to do what he did with Dortmund, and you can't scoff at winning two league titles, a cup and reaching a CL final. However, this all happened in the space of two seasons, hence my claim that he's enjoyed a very brief period of success.
My point was, and remains, that the success he enjoyed in Germany was easier to obtain than the equivalent in England, and his appointment does represent something of a risk. To get Liverpool from where they are to being title contenders will take some absolutely outstanding management or a tremendous stroke of luck. Expectations are already very high for Klopp. The bar for many is still set very much at Rodgers' 2013/14 title charge and subsequent qualification for the CL. Many will be happy with a top 4 finish, which I think is something that they can realistically aspire to over the next 2 or 3 seasons (including this one) with the right management and the right signings. As soon as that's obtained though, they'll be looking at challenging for the title, which is another step entirely. I will be absolutely amazed if Liverpool find themselves going for a league title any time in the next 3 seasons, never mind finding themselves as double winners and in a CL final. The very minimum expectation for Klopp will be putting up a decent challenge for a CL spot, eventually establishing Liverpool as a CL team. I'm not sure he's capable of doing that.
Broken record, holy moly.
Smei-finalists the last five seasons. Winners once in that time. That's better than any team bar Barca and Bayern over a five year period.
Sorry, forgot the white text.
@Alex99 going by that logic United only finished seventh once before van gaal took over and last season was a hugely disappointing result from him.
I'd say that's a perfectly reasonable definition. They're the 3 teams that have reached the semis or better consistently over the last few seasons, and the 3 teams you'd probably rank as favourites to win it now. As far as I'm concerned, everyone else is at least a rung below and whilst obviously being good teams, are not as formidable as you'd expect a team described as a European force to be.
BVB's UEFA team ranking spot 2008: 109th
2015: 13th
just give it up @Alex99, it's not going to get better
What are you trying to prove with those rankings? Being ranked 13th in the UEFA rankings doesn't make you a European force. By that logic we'd have to include Chelsea, Benifca, Schalke, Arsenal, Valencia and United as more of a force than Dortmund.
@Alex99
You're tweaking again, cherry-picking again, taking things totally out of context again, applying different standards just as it pleases your opinion again, just as you've done from the very beginning. As mentioned earlier, that's - at least for me - no basis for any discussion.
You're tweaking again, cherry-picking again, taking things totally out of context again, applying different standards just as it pleases your opinion again, just as you've done from the very beginning. As mentioned earlier, that's - at least for me - no basis for any discussion.
Last season was the minimum he had to do. There is some middle ground between very successful and hugely disappointing, and I'd say last season United were absolutely average. I fully expect us to build on that this season and mount something of a title challenge. However, if we don't win the league, I won't be calling the season very successful.
I've used consistent standards, they've just obviously been higher than yours and some of the other posters in this thread, which is fair enough.
If you don't care to actually point out what I've tweaked and what I've cherry-picked, then I'm not really sure what the point of you responding is.
Yup. It's crazy.
Your standards are absolutely bonkers, that's the problem. Going by your definition, there can pretty much only be 1 or 2 successful managers per season per league. You are unable to appreciate a manager doing a great job if he doesn't win titles or challenges for them, which is madness. Pure madness. Was Favre an unsuccessful manager at Gladbach in your opinion? Never won the title, never even challenged for it yet I bet most of the german posters on here would call him the greatest successstory in the Bundesliga next to Klopp in the last 10 years.
@Alex99 so on Friday you posted this:
This would indicate that you regard Klopp as a manager whose reputation is too good for the Liverpool job. It may even suggest you rate the guy. A reasonable inference?
Less than a week later, following Liverpool's very strong links to Klopp, you're engineering arguments to now suggest that Klopp isn't particularly impressive.
Flip-to-the-flop on Klopp?
This would indicate that you regard Klopp as a manager whose reputation is too good for the Liverpool job. It may even suggest you rate the guy. A reasonable inference?
Less than a week later, following Liverpool's very strong links to Klopp, you're engineering arguments to now suggest that Klopp isn't particularly impressive.
Flip-to-the-flop on Klopp?
I think the word for what it indicates is "butthurt"
You'll get used to it. It seems only SAF and Mourinho are the only non-overrated coaches out there.
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It's not that hard to understand that this is potentially a good appointment. But that certainly doesn't guarantee anything especially with the squad that liverpool has. Given time he will do well, or might not. We have a lot of good managers everywhere but success is not always that straightforward as can be seen with clubs everywhere including ours.
@Alex99
It's obvious that you don't acknowledge your incoherent line of "arguments" which is the main reason why I stopped addressing your points.
It's obvious that you don't acknowledge your incoherent line of "arguments" which is the main reason why I stopped addressing your points.
Didn't Alex say that Mourinho is overrated as well but Pep isn't?
James Pearce @JamesPearceEcho 5m5 minutes ago
O'Driscoll. McAllister, Driscoll & Davies all part of Anfield clearout ahead of Klopp's appointment.
O'Driscoll. McAllister, Driscoll & Davies all part of Anfield clearout ahead of Klopp's appointment.
I make a distinction between having very good seasons and very successful seasons. It appears we're arguing over semantics. For example, I think Wenger did a great job at Arsenal by keeping them in the top 4 on a relatively shoe string budget for so long, however, I wouldn't call many of the last 10 years of his time their successful. Likewise, I think Klopp did an excellent job at Dortmund up until his final season, but whilst he did well rebuilding a team sliding down the table to bring them up to 6th and 5th placed finishes, I wouldn't call those seasons successful. You can be an excellent manager and do an excellent job without being a successful manager. My parameters for success involve challenging for and winning trophies, which I don't believe to be particularly unreasonable. Others include surpassing expectations, which is perfectly understandable, but not something I personally deem to be worthy of being described as successful. David Moyes did a great job keeping Everton afloat and establishing them as a top half side, but he isn't a successful manager in my eyes.
It's precisely that. I think his reputation (warranted or not), as with Ancelotti, is higher than the sort of manager I expected Liverpool to get. And I've repeatedly said that I think he's a good manager.
What I've said is that Liverpool should not expect him to recreate the almost immediate success he enjoyed at Dortmund, and that his final season in charge there makes his appointment something of a risk when moving to a new league. What I've said is that whilst others are shitting themselves about Klopp joining Liverpool and pining for Woodward to come in with some last ditch job offer, I'm not particularly worried nor overly convinced that he's the miracle worker people seem to think he is.
As far as I'm concerned, Klopp is a good manager, but has to do more before I'll accept he warrants the hype that surrounds him. I don't think that's unreasonable and I'll stand by it. If he establishes Liverpool as a top 4 team and gets them challenging for titles, I'll be bloody annoyed, but mightily impressed.
Isn't it just the normal shit that happens on the caf if someone we wanted ends up going to another club? Last example Pedro.
Looks like he is joining us = "OMG best winger in the world 4 realz0rs"
He joins Chelsea = "Nah, never rated the bench warming, diving Spanish midget anyways."
Guess it is the same everywhere. Some are just never ending.
So how many on here are expecting Klopp to completely revamp/revitalize this Liverpool squad?
People talk about them getting in the top four but who are they likely to push out? Man City have a really formidable team. Chelsea have Jose and if he leaves I am sure Roman will bring in someone who will improve Chelsea again and if that fails he will spunk the cash again. Arsenal have never dropped out of the top four for a long time and with Arsene in charge I don't see them dropping out of it soon.
That leaves us. Now no matter how much you rate Klopp, you cannot rate LVG so low that you think he will knock us out of the CL places. Klopp will have a heck of a challenge to make Liverpool a part of the top four again on a consistent basis. It was easier earlier but with City riding on the Sheikh's money to turn into title contenders from relegation fodders, but the task for Klopp now is very very difficult.
People talk about them getting in the top four but who are they likely to push out? Man City have a really formidable team. Chelsea have Jose and if he leaves I am sure Roman will bring in someone who will improve Chelsea again and if that fails he will spunk the cash again. Arsenal have never dropped out of the top four for a long time and with Arsene in charge I don't see them dropping out of it soon.
That leaves us. Now no matter how much you rate Klopp, you cannot rate LVG so low that you think he will knock us out of the CL places. Klopp will have a heck of a challenge to make Liverpool a part of the top four again on a consistent basis. It was easier earlier but with City riding on the Sheikh's money to turn into title contenders from relegation fodders, but the task for Klopp now is very very difficult.
. Going from first, second to fourth is average? That has to be disappointing with that noyes season being a blip and all.
Fact is, he stayed for 7 years at Mainz and that itself is very remarkable.
Noone claimed that. But again, it's not only about the numbers. You need to cover the environment and the conditions he had to deal with.
Yes, you could say the same about Hoffenheim, Wolfsburg or what about tiny Leverkusen who always fight for a top spot in the league. What do they have in common? Well, very potent sponsors, which Mainz didn't have.
It's not about what you think. It's about what the majority of german fans think. And most would say that Dortmund's success was pretty surprising. Imagine for yourself that Everton might enjoy such a spell of success. Who wouldn't call that a great achievment by Martinez?
On top of that imagine Martinez having that success with a debt ridden club that restricts him to a net spend of zero.
In fact it is the other way round where the caf fawns over every player which joins our rivals.
The wider cultural atmosphere, in which Gary Bloody Neville (the pundit) is hailed as an insightful breath of fresh air, dictates that foreign managers are considered to be either maverick geniuses or weird failures. Such is the generally dire level of true competence, innovation and adaptability amongst British managers, it's inevitable that Klopp is viewed in an extreme way: potential genius or potentially rubbish...because there's precious little nuance in football when it comes to opinions.
@Alex99
It's obvious that you don't acknowledge your incoherent line of "arguments" which is the main reason why I stopped addressing your points.
Do you care to point out how they're incoherent or am I just going to have to accept that I won't get an explanation from you?
Both are, but both are still very good.
Mourinho is obviously excellent at offering teams success in the short term, but we've seen now at a number of clubs that he struggles after a finite amount of time. I think he's overrated because despite these obvious shortcomings, he was touted by many as the perfect appointment to rebuild United. Mourinho doesn't do rebuilding. He comes in when the majority of the groundwork is done, finishes the job, then leaves.
If Pep can do it a club that's not already one of, if not the best in Europe in terms of playing staff, then I'll no longer consider him overhyped. He's had two jobs where he's had to do very little in terms of squad building, so as with Mourinho, it seemed extremely odd when people were talking about him as the perfect man to come in and rebuild United.
Not too much really. My feeling is that Rodgers picked players that Klopp might have, too. Klopp will probably enjoy working with players like Joe Allen, Origi, Lallana, Ibe, Can. I guess that the rest of the strikers might fall under certain scrutiny. I can't tell how he would play Benteke for example. His biggest task will be probably the backline.
That wasn't what we were discussing though. Claims were made that he took them from perennial relegation battlers to promotion, which simply isn't true.
They did exactly that in this very thread.
Augsburg don't fall into that category though. Their record signing cost £3.5 million, and that was only made this last summer. When they were first promoted their record signing was barely more than £500k. It's one thing talking about clubs with the wealth of Wolfsburg, Leverkusen and Hoffenheim, and another to talk about a club coming up from the 4th tier to finish 5th in the top flight with a transfer budget that most PL relegation battlers would laugh at.
This is sort of my point. That sort of thing simply doesn't happen in the PL because the league is far stronger, whereas the teams outside of Bayern are constantly fluctuating where they finish in the league.
We were arguing about whether Dortmund was a European force or not, I never mentioned the term 'dominant'. You're changing the subject of the discussion just to suit your point. Those three are indeed the dominant forces in European football right now, but what do you know, there are more forces than only the dominant ones.
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