Kevin Pietersen

brewlio said:
Yes, up there with the very best of his contemporaries. You've mentioned some great batsmen. Would you care to enlarge on the etc.

I think you're missing the point I was making zing. Ok, it maybe subject to interpretation who this era's best batsmen are. But KP ranks right up. To state that he is an average batsman and base his ability in terms of runs scored just isn't good enough.

^^ This fecked me off by UJ. It's like saying he's not even in the top 50. Is Dravid really still regarded as a better batsman than KP? I'm talking in the last few years? He seemed to score a hell of a lot more runs when he still had the keepers gloves imo. As great a batsman the little maestro is, it would be interesting to see how his run stats stacked up on the sub-continent and off it. KP will rise from this slump in scores and prove both you and UJ to be very, very wrong.
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If you want stats, the 2 posters who replied before this gave you them about Sachin. I also posted a bunch of stats earlier about Pietersen in this thread which shows he has a very poor record in countries that matter.

Pietersen's got about 5000 runs in 5 years at an average of 47. There is no way that puts him up in the same pedestal as the rest of the modern day greats, who've had significantly better averages over 3x the time. Dravid made his debut in 1996, Sachin in 1989.

Dravid's been in something of a slump the past 4 years(barring 2009) and still averages over 50, that's testament to his incredible record.

As for the 'etc', I'd list Steve Waugh, Jacques Kallis in that very top tier. I'd have Pietersen in the 2nd tier along side many players who have a case for being better than him. Sehwag, Laxman, Sangakarra, Jayawardene, Yousuf, Inzamam, Clarke, Langer, Hayden, Hussey, Chanderpaul, Graeme Smith. I think Amla and possibly AB De Villiers, when they finish their careers, will finish as better players than Pietersen.. they don't have the runs to show for it right now. Out of the players I listed, you can make a good case for many of them being better than Pietersen.

Pietersen's a good player, but he's achieved almost nothing in comparison to the real modern day greats. Like I said earlier, I think he's on and off a very good player, but in cricket now, you have to do it over a really extended period of the game to be considered truly great.
 
Uncle Junior said:
I wonder if he's better than Lara.
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Why are you wondering that? Strange.

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All I asked was it would be interesting to see how his runs stacked up on/off the sub-continent. Fair enough, very similar. I'll admit I was wrong on that one. But my whole argument is based on this tripe.
Even if he does get 10,000 runs at an average of 50, it's not a huge deal, 10s of players have it, many more will have it by the time he gets there.
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This bollocks statement just makes him another average county player.

nb. I haven't got an XBox you tit.
 
samabachan said:
He doesn't stand up to Ponting, Lara and Tendulkar but comparisons with the likes of Ganguly, Dravid, Inzamam, Yousuf, Younis, Kallis, Clarke etc are perfectly valid and I think he's as good as any of them.
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How can you compare him with Dravid or Kallis?

He has 5000 runs at 47. And I can't believe you just put Ganguly in the same line as Dravid.
 
samabachan said:
He doesn't stand up to Ponting, Lara and Tendulkar but comparisons with the likes of Ganguly, Dravid, Inzamam, Yousuf, Younis, Kallis, Clarke etc are perfectly valid and I think he's as good as any of them.
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Right now he's not and so that means in general he's not. I think it will require him to regain his early form of 2004/5 and to sustain that for at least 2 years to even get into the bracket that you mention above. His performance this summer has been both poor but more disappointingly, also toothless.

I actually think he has lost his passion for the game, became too big an ego and that he will never regain his bravado and posture ... and if thats the case, he doesn't even make the list above, forget the likes of Tendulkar, Lara or Ponting.
 
Uncle Junior said:
I'd put Ganguly and Clarke in tier 2.5, and the rest of the names that you mentioned in tier 2, bar Kallis, who'd go in in tier 1.5.
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:confused::confused: WTF.

Kids and their new terminology!

BTW - Ganguly was a class class act. For you to write this can only mean that yo ever saw him at his very best - he was untouchable in those days and even outscored Tendulkar & Lara.

And it was his captaincy alone that re invigorated Indian cricket and gave it soul and some heart.

Put simply, had their been no Ganguly, then right now there would be no IPL.
 
sammsky1 said:
He isn't even that at the moment!
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With his current run of scores I have to agree. The whole central contract thing and not playing enough cricket over the summer has affected KP. You can have as much net time as you like, but it doesn't really get you in good nick for out in the middle. The ECB have been reluctant (give or take a couple of times) to release players out of form to spend time getting back in the groove with their counties.
Sometimes policy needs to go out the window if you want your best players in good nick for difficult away tours such as the impending Ashes down under.
 
My batsmen rankings (ODIs+Tests) -

Tier 1 (in order) -

1) Sachin Tendulkar - Most runs, most centuries, most half centuries, most wickets, catches, stumpings, run-outs.
2) Brian Lara - He could tear attacks apart like it was your girlfriend's ass when she's passed out and you're drunk, but he was not consistent at all.
3) Ricky Ponting
4) Steve Waugh

Tier 2 (in no order) -

5) Jacques Kallis
6) Rahul Dravid
7) Inzamam-ul-Haq
8) Andy Flower
9) Matthew Hayden
10) Sangakkara
11) Chanderpaul
12) Gary Kirsten
13) Yousuf
14) Younis
15) Sehwag
16) Ganguly
17) Adam Gilchrist
18) Saeed Anwar
19) Mark Waugh
20) Jayawardene
21) Jayasurya

Tier 3 (in no order) -

22) Bevan
23) Stephen Fleming
24) Langer
25) Sarwan
26) Dhoni
27) Astle
28) Atapattu
29) "KP"

This is of course a list of players which I've watched bat, and does include the Huttons and the Bradmans.
 
Bevan was a prolific limited overs player with an average of 53. I'm surprised that you've got him in at 22 considering his overall test average was only 29. Interesting.
 
He played only 18 test matches; it was ridiculously hard to get into the Australian test team when he was playing, and when he did get a chance, he had to come to bat at number 5-7 ONLY, and by then, everything had already been done by the top order. But he was a very good batsmen, and at one point, his ODI average was touching 60!
 
Uncle Junior said:
He played only 18 test matches; it was ridiculously hard to get into the Australian test team when he was playing, and when he did get a chance, he had to come to bat at number 5-7 ONLY, and by then, everything had already been done by the top order. But he was a very good batsmen, and at one point, his ODI average was touching 60!
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Bevan was a ticky tacky player, he simply was not suited to the test arena. During the span of his test career, there were openings at times to cement a place in the test team, but the bloke could now play pace or bounce.

He was a very good ODI batsmen, simply because he had the ability to deflect really well, and manufacture little gaps, but that style would not have worked in tests, and it didn't.

Even his ODI average took a hit once he was moved up the order in the latter part of his career, and didn't have the same opportunities to stay not out.

Basically what I'm saying is, he is the only aussie batsmen that I have publicly boo-ed at the MCG/SCG and at Manuka Oval, I hated the bastard.
 
Yeah as your saying "ODI+TESTS", I'd have both Martyn and Lehmann in well before I'd put Bevan in. I'd even have Hussey over him as well. I'd arguably have Martyn and Hussey over Mark Waugh really despite Mark Waugh being one of my favourites from that era.

I'd still have Thorpe and Trescothick over KP for now as well, KP should eventually go above both, but not right now for me.
 
Uncle Junior said:
My batsmen rankings (ODIs+Tests) -

Tier 1 (in order) -

1) Sachin Tendulkar - Most runs, most centuries, most half centuries, most wickets, catches, stumpings, run-outs.
2) Brian Lara - Could tear the attacks apart like your girlfriend's ass when she's passed out and you're drunk, but not consistent at all.
3) Ricky Ponting
4) Steve Waugh

Tier 2 (in no order) -

5) Jacques Kallis
6) Rahul Dravid
7) Inzamam-ul-Haq
8) Andy Flower
9) Matthew Hayden
10) Sangakkara
11) Chanderpaul
12) Gary Kirsten
13) Yousuf
14) Younis
15) Sehwag
16) Ganguly
17) Adam Gilchrist
18) Saeed Anwar
19) Mark Waugh
20) Jayawardene
21) Jayasurya

Tier 3 (in no order) -

22) Bevan
23) Stephen Fleming
24) Langer
25) Sarwan
26) Dhoni
27) Astle
28) Atapattu
29) "KP"

This is of course a list of players which I've watched bat, and does include the Huttons and the Bradmans.
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In fact, the more I think about this, the more a) wrong and b) clueless it comes across. Sarwan, Dhoni, Astle, Fleming and Atapattu better than KP? Words really fail me. KP is good value for a top 10-12 place in that list, minimum.
 
brewlio said:
Yes, up there with the very best of his contemporaries. You've mentioned some great batsmen. Would you care to enlarge on the etc.

I think you're missing the point I was making zing. Ok, it maybe subject to interpretation who this era's best batsmen are. But KP ranks right up. To state that he is an average batsman and base his ability in terms of runs scored just isn't good enough.

^^ This fecked me off by UJ. It's like saying he's not even in the top 50. Is Dravid really still regarded as a better batsman than KP? I'm talking in the last few years? He seemed to score a hell of a lot more runs when he still had the keepers gloves imo. As great a batsman the little maestro is, it would be interesting to see how his run stats stacked up on the sub-continent and off it. KP will rise from this slump in scores and prove both you and UJ to be very, very wrong.
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He is definitely in the top 20. But he's nowhere close to being in the same league as Tendulkar who's a living legend of the game. Hell, even Graeme Smith has to be ranked ahead of KP in terms of averages and just overal impact.

I would put him in the 2nd tier of that batting table. He's definitely better then a lot of current players, and when in form he's in the top 10...but he's not been in form for a while now, and for that reason he's got no business being mentioned as a top 10 batsmen. That and the fact he's only got 5000 runs. There's still a question of longevity which he has to answer. The great players adapt and change their game as they get older (lara, ponting, tendulkar). We have yet to see if KP can adapt and do this.
 
Uncle Junior said:
My batsmen rankings (ODIs+Tests) -

Tier 1 (in order) -

1) Sachin Tendulkar - Most runs, most centuries, most half centuries, most wickets, catches, stumpings, run-outs.
2) Brian Lara - Could tear the attacks apart like your girlfriend's ass when she's passed out and you're drunk, but not consistent at all.
3) Ricky Ponting
4) Steve Waugh

Tier 2 (in no order) -

5) Jacques Kallis
6) Rahul Dravid
7) Inzamam-ul-Haq
8) Andy Flower
9) Matthew Hayden
10) Sangakkara
11) Chanderpaul
12) Gary Kirsten
13) Yousuf
14) Younis
15) Sehwag
16) Ganguly
17) Adam Gilchrist
18) Saeed Anwar
19) Mark Waugh
20) Jayawardene
21) Jayasurya

Tier 3 (in no order) -

22) Bevan
23) Stephen Fleming
24) Langer
25) Sarwan
26) Dhoni
27) Astle
28) Atapattu
29) "KP"

This is of course a list of players which I've watched bat, and does include the Huttons and the Bradmans.
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Graeme Smith needs to be on that list.

And KP is a tier 2 player. Probably top 15...and a bunch of the players you have listed stopped playing a long time ago. They shouldn't even make that list (and if they do, then you need to add a bunch of other players that played alongside them who were far more superior). You don't watch much cricket do you?
 
Northstand said:
Nasser Hussain made the point that Pietersen should have taken the opportunity to have played lower grade cricket for a game or two in order to regain his form, as he has not played a lot of cricket lately. As BTV points out though, he still has a great average of just under 50, and will surely come through his current downturn in form.
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He'll finish with an average of 45 or there abouts.

He's only scored 5000 runs. That's not a lot, and most talented players (and he is definitely that), will start with a high average and as bowlers and teams figure him out it will drop.

Hussey in his first year had an average of nearly 70...proves nothing. If KP even makes it to 10,000 runs (and it's a big if) I can see his average ending up 45-46. Still respectable, but comparable to a lot of his contemporaries.

He got a lot of hype because he's the genuine talent and run getter (and after Triscothick there weren't that many English batsmen out there who were top 10 material). But currently I don't think he makes even top 15 in the world. Plenty of guys way ahead of him. Sangakarra, Graeme Smith, Sehwag, AB de Villiers etc.

All said and done, AB, Smith will probably end their career having done much better then KP.
 
Uncle Junior said:
Where did I say that they were better than "KP"? "KP" could easily be better than them.
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You put Pietersen below them on that list, that's how. Jesus Christ. As for the player, when on form he can be as good as Ponting, easily worth a place in the top 10 batsmen in the world and definitely better than the likes of Chanderpaul, Kirsten, Anwar, Jayawardene. People seem to have forgotten just how good he is and it's really fecking annoying. Easily, by far, the most talented batsman England have had in my lifetime.
 
samabachan said:
You put Pietersen below them on that list, that's how. Jesus Christ. As for the player, when on form he can be as good as Ponting, easily worth a place in the top 10 batsmen in the world and definitely better than the likes of Chanderpaul, Kirsten, Anwar, Jayawardene. People seem to have forgotten just how good he is and it's really fecking annoying. Easily, by far, the most talented batsman England have had in my lifetime.
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You must be 14 or 15 years old then.

Also. How's he better then Jayawardene? The man is 33 years old and has almost 10,000 runs at an average of 54. That's really twice as many runs as KP, and he's only 3 years older. He's also got 28 centuries compared to KP's 16. No way, is KP better then him. The others, you can make a case for...(and even then there's some debate with a few of them).

People haven't forgotten how good he is. Sensible people just know that when he was going through his purple patch there was a lot of overhyping of his abilities. Many people at the time were talking about how he could possibly get 45 centuries, and how at his average he would break 10,000 runs and do this and that...

The same was said of Monty Panesar as well. How at his rate he would break Warnes record if he played into his late 30's...basically, it was all just over zealous prognostication. A lot of hype about players who while being good, aren't as great as they are made out to be.

KP's a good player, on his day perhaps even a great one. But when all said and done he won't rank in Englands all time batting greats list. He'll be lucky to crack the top 20.
 
Devilton said:
You must be 14 or 15 years old then.

Also. How's he better then Jayawardene? The man is 33 years old and has almost 10,000 runs at an average of 54. That's really twice as many runs as KP, and he's only 3 years older. He's also got 28 centuries compared to KP's 16.

No way, is KP better then him. The others, you can make a case for...(and even then there's some debate with a few of them).
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I'm nearly 24 actually. And Jayawardene has the massive advantage of batting on totally flat tracks at home where games are routinely 600-4 plays 550-7, so I'll take the stats with a pinch of salt thanks. If Pietersen was in the Sri Lankan team he would probably average about 60.
 
samabachan said:
I'm nearly 24 actually. And Jayawardene has the massive advantage of batting on totally flat tracks at home where games are routinely 600-4 plays 550-7, so I'll take the stats with a pinch of salt thanks. If Pietersen was in the Sri Lankan team he would probably average about 60.
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No, he wouldn't. He's still be round about where he is right now...because then his average abroad would be 35. It's a nice fairy tale to tell yourself though...of course, the one time KP did play in sri lanka his average was not even 30. But, why let the truth get in the way of a nice fantasy, eh? ;)

He's a good player, but lets wait till he actually does something before we start talking about him as being a top 10 player. He's been rather average for a while now. Home and away.

And if the tracks in Sri Lanka are so flat how come Murli was able to take half of his 800 wickets on them?
 
Devilton said:
No, he wouldn't. He's still be round about where he is right now...because then his average abroad would be 35. It's a nice fairy tale to tell yourself though...of course, the one time KP did play in sri lanka his average was not even 30. But, why let the truth get in the way of a nice fantasy, eh? ;)

He's a good player, but lets wait till he actually does something before we start talking about him as being a top 10 player. He's been rather average for a while now. Home and away.

And if the tracks in Sri Lanka are so flat how come Murli was able to take half of his 800 wickets on them?
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fecking hell, just looked at Jayawardene on cricinfo and his average in India and Sri Lanka is 64 and 65 respectively. Apart from 60 against Zimbabwe (lets face it, that doesn't really count), he doesn't average above 43.00 in any other country (i.e. any country where they like result wickets more than roads). KP has also scored nearly 2000 runs v Australia and averages nearly 48 despite having done virtually nothing for 18 months. You're 1) placing far too much emphasis on stats and 2) either massively underestimating KP or totally stupid.
 
Kevin Peitersen has been dropped for the rest of this series(T20 & ODI).

He hasn't reacted to it too well either...

From a fella on another forum,
KP twitter
Yep.. Done for rest of summer!! Man of the World Cup T20 and dropped from the T20 side too.. Its a f**k up!! Surrey have signed me for l ...
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Devilton said:
You must be 14 or 15 years old then.

Also. How's he better then Jayawardene? The man is 33 years old and has almost 10,000 runs at an average of 54. That's really twice as many runs as KP, and he's only 3 years older. He's also got 28 centuries compared to KP's 16. No way, is KP better then him. The others, you can make a case for...(and even then there's some debate with a few of them).

People haven't forgotten how good he is. Sensible people just know that when he was going through his purple patch there was a lot of overhyping of his abilities. Many people at the time were talking about how he could possibly get 45 centuries, and how at his average he would break 10,000 runs and do this and that...

The same was said of Monty Panesar as well. How at his rate he would break Warnes record if he played into his late 30's...basically, it was all just over zealous prognostication. A lot of hype about players who while being good, aren't as great as they are made out to be.

KP's a good player, on his day perhaps even a great one. But when all said and done he won't rank in Englands all time batting greats list. He'll be lucky to crack the top 20.
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samabachan said:
fecking hell, just looked at Jayawardene on cricinfo and his average in India and Sri Lanka is 64 and 65 respectively. Apart from 60 against Zimbabwe (lets face it, that doesn't really count), he doesn't average above 43.00 in any other country (i.e. any country where they like result wickets more than roads). KP has also scored nearly 2000 runs v Australia and averages nearly 48 despite having done virtually nothing for 18 months. You're 1) placing far too much emphasis on stats and 2) either massively underestimating KP or totally stupid.
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C'mon guys...debate nicely now...

Everyones entitled to their opinion, you don't have to insult each other to make it though...
 
samabachan said:
I'm nearly 24 actually. And Jayawardene has the massive advantage of batting on totally flat tracks at home where games are routinely 600-4 plays 550-7, so I'll take the stats with a pinch of salt thanks. If Pietersen was in the Sri Lankan team he would probably average about 60.
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:lol:
What a ridiculous assumption to make.



samabachan said:
fecking hell, just looked at Jayawardene on cricinfo and his average in India and Sri Lanka is 64 and 65 respectively. Apart from 60 against Zimbabwe (lets face it, that doesn't really count), he doesn't average above 43.00 in any other country (i.e. any country where they like result wickets more than roads). KP has also scored nearly 2000 runs v Australia and averages nearly 48 despite having done virtually nothing for 18 months. You're 1) placing far too much emphasis on stats and 2) either massively underestimating KP or totally stupid.
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Pietersen's average in India and SriLanka, 40 and 25 respectively. If the pitches are so flat, than surely Pietersen should be able to score more runs.

Anybody who has watched Cricket will understand that KP is not better than Jayawardene. Jayawardene would walk into many test teams, Pietersen wouldn't.
 
samabachan said:
He doesn't stand up to Ponting, Lara and Tendulkar but comparisons with the likes of Ganguly, Dravid, Inzamam, Yousuf, Younis, Kallis, Clarke etc are perfectly valid and I think he's as good as any of them.
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:lol:

Pathetic. Pietersen so far is not even close to any of the names you mentioned(barring Clarke and Ganguly).
 
Devilton is on the money here with all his posts on this page here..

samabachan said:
KP is better than all the players in Tier 3, and by a good way too. People forget how good he is because he's had a rough 12/18 months, but every cricketer has that.
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Well, his career has been a short 5 years.. if he's been in a slump for 12-18 months of it, that's hardly a good case to include a player in the list of the best modern era batsman, is it?
 
Pietersen drops himself by Twitter | Cricket News | England v Pakistan 2010 | Cricinfo.com

Pietersen drops himself by Twitter

Kevin Pietersen has announced via Twitter that he has been dropped from England's squad for the Twenty20 and one-day internationals against Pakistan, and has hit out at the decision.

"Done for rest of summer!! Man of the World Cup T20 and dropped from the T20 side too. Its a f**k up!!," Pietersen posted on his account kevinpp24, before deleting it minutes later, but not before it had been picked up by several users and circulated around the internet.

In a post that was truncated due to Twitter's 140-character limit, Pietersen also added "Surrey have signed me for l ... [blank]." When contacted by Cricinfo, Surrey's chairman Paul Sheldon reacted with surprise, but added that he could offer no comment until after 5.15pm, which is the time that England's squad is due to be officially announced.

Pietersen has struggled for since returning from the World Twenty20 where he helped England to the title and has managed just one half century all summer, a scratchy 80 in the second Test against Pakistan at Edgbaston.

The magnitude of the decision, and the apparent negotiations with Surrey, also explain the reasons behind the delay in the timing of England's announcement, which was originally scheduled for 12pm, then pushed back to 2pm, and then finally set for the current time of 5.15pm.
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LMFAO! :lol:
 
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