You mean is he trying to win, before putting unelectable policies under people’s noses?
Probably.
Keir Starmer Labour Leader
- Thread starter Damien
- Start date
You mean is he trying to win, before putting unelectable policies under people’s noses?
Probably.
He's just a moderate, centre-left labour MP isn't he? Why would he be in favour of destruction of property and vandalism?
Anyway, from what I've seen of him he's got my vote. He's tearing Boris to pieces without even trying and its glorious.
Is he actually now arguing for the prosecution of those who brought it down? Spineless.
so they should, and why would a senior lawyer support selective enforcement of laws?
It explains his lack of rush in ensuring all migrants' taxes are worth the same as everyone else's.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2020/05/21/ceb5d/1
Eh? That’s not the plan, is it?
yes but they got the concession that NHS workers would not have to pay the surcharge.
They got an excellent change and a politically expedient win as a minority party.
If they bullied Boris on the subject as a matter of principle to include all migrant workers they wouldn't have even got that because of the framing. They are not in power.
He’s not a senior lawyer, he’s the leader of the Labour party. It’s a statue of a slaver for crying out loud, this was not the protestors wantonly destroying any property or possessions they could get their hands on. The law never has been conceived as a constant to be applied consistently for each and every single infringement - the police and prosecutors are supposed to exercise discretion in their judgements.
It’s almost as if he wants to get into power, then change things, rather than be an unelectable idealist. Bizarre.
Buying into a hierarchy of deserving migrants is somehow excellent.
Or it’s almost as if he wants to get into power, and make cosmetic changes, rather than actually tackle fundamental inequalities in society.
Oh I see, he's only telling the vast majority of migrants they're worth less than the rest of us in preparation for the big bait and switch in his maiden speech as PM.
Everyone keep quiet for the next few years so not to spoil the surprise.
Everyone keep quiet for the next few years so not to spoil the surprise.
I work with human rights lawyers. They are as liberal and fair minded as you can get but they play by the rules.
People should use their big boy or girl words and if they don't get what they want then deal with it like an adult and keep pushing the issue.
If everyone took the law into their own hands society wouldn't function because everyone thinks they are right.
Bottom line : Nobody would vote for a Manifesto that you wrote. That doesn’t mean your views are incorrect, they’re probably identical to mine. But you know that the policies we’d both like to see, are not going to convince the electorate to move to Labour in great enough numbers
So let the sensible people take some power back, and make your world a slightly better place.
Then hold them on a short leash if they get over the line.
Its not going to happen in a way that you want it to. Ever.
The 'sensible people' being described here of course are the Labour staffers who sabotaged the 2017 election and took great pride and hilarity from bullying the party's most prominent black MP to tears and then telling the press where she was.
Don't all rush to volunteer as canvassers at once.
From what I recall, it has been in the last few labour manifestos to do away with the migrant surcharge. There is no reason why when he has the opportunity to write a manifesto that it won't be in.
Because the Tories were drumming up how much they support NHS workers it was an opportune moment to pick up a win.
THEY. ARE. NOT. IN. POWER.
You take the win, you move on to the next issue and so on. Getting a government with a majority of 80 to do anything as the leader of the opposition is difficult, having a leader who barely compromised got us there, in case that passed you by.
I feel sorry for you.
Don't worry, not finding the hierarchy of a political party abusing the most targetted MP in the country hilarious isn't for everyone.
How can anyone complain about a would-be prime minister agreeing with the rule of law? Have we got so high on people like Trump and Johnson that we now think its normal for our world leaders to have little regard for the law?
Don’t even try to bring common sense To the table.
The same people that called for Cummings to be fired are also advocating that vandals get off Scott Free.
I don’t believe I ever claimed to possess the ability to write a manifesto to win an election. And correct me if I’m wrong, but did Starmer not run on the basis of using the bulk of the 2017 manifesto as his agenda? And was he not the prominent minister who championed an apparently uber-sensible switch to becoming an explicitly Remain party and helped push the policy of a second referendum - Labour then going on to lose 52/60 seats to Leave constituencies.
Here’s the issue - characterising the people who tore it down as vandals. Would you look a black man in the eye who helped to bring it down, had suffered the degradation of walking past a statue of a slaver, his historical oppressor every day, after over a decade of futile efforts to have it removed by legitimate channels and tell him he was a vandal; or in Starmer’s formulation ‘completely wrong’?
Of course, strictly speaking nobody denies that it is vandalism, but Nelson Mandela was, strictly speaking, a terrorist. There’s a reason we deliberately eschew that characterisation though.
You see they've decided that the second referendum was actually massively popular, it was Corbyn and his fence sitting they didn't like.
I don’t believe I ever claimed to possess the ability to write a manifesto to win an election. And correct me if I’m wrong, but did Starmer not run on the basis of using the bulk of the 2017 manifesto as his agenda? And was he not the prominent minister who championed an apparently uber-sensible switch to becoming an explicitly Remain party and helped push the policy of a second referendum - Labour then going on to lose 52/60 seats to Leave constituencies.
Which is why now Sir Keir is leader he and his new look party have no interest in calling for a vote on rejoining and he's spent today sitting on the fence about a transition period extension.
There’s your answer. It’s vandalism.
That’s where the bravery comes in. Your pointing out Mandela is apt.
Bravery is standing up for what you believe in, accepting the consequences if you step outside of the law to do so.
People that commit crimes should be charged. Their sentences should take into account the circumstances. They have my full support. But I’m not going to change the rule of law for them.
That’s not some bizarre concept.
Oh, didn't you know? It's perfectly fine for someone to break the law as long as it aligns with your own personal morality.
Strictly speaking self-defence is violence, that does not mean you call someone violent if they punch someone who took a few swings at them first. It’s not violent to compel black citizens to have to see a statue of a slaver on their walks about a city but it doesn’t mean the suffering and humiliation it causes is any less. Context matters - they are not vandals, they acted correctly.
You also didn’t answer the question. You’d look them in the eye and call them a vandal and tell them they were completely wrong?
And so I take it that you would have no issue with a right-wing commentator writing an article denouncing Mandela as a terrorist then?
I mean I laughed a lot when that nazi got punched, but I don't expect political leaders to say it was the correct thing to do, nor do I think it contributed to ending racism.
Exactly.
Erm.... yes you do. If they put them in hospital then they should face assault charges. If they kill them they go to Prison.
Yes I’d tell them they vandalised something. I’d be empathetic enough to tell them that I understand why and that they have my support.
And finally... yes. I’m happy for anyone to call our Mandela’s terrorist acts as terrorist acts. Why wouldn’t I be?
It's so obviously possible to agree the statue is wrong and should come down, yet disagree that a crowd high on the moment are the right people to do it. Can't even believe it's being debated.
They removed a statue. They did not punch someone. I’d never expect Starmer to come out and say ‘punching someone is ok if they are racist’. To reiterate: I am not saying he should have come out in support of it, but to call it ‘completely wrong’ and actively call for prosecutions? No wonder he’s antagonised some of his own MPs.
I think you’re just saying this to save face. No one in their right mind would label someone who acted purely in self defence a violent person.
No, I said would you call them a vandal. Look them in the eye and say it. Not say they vandalised something. They know what they did. It’s the label I assume plenty of them would reject.
Again, you have shifted what I said, which in itself is telling. I said would you be happy for a right-wing commentator to denounce Mandela as a terrorist? Not to say he played a part in acts of terrorism, but to label him a terrorist, and to insist that is how we refer to him in popular memory.
More to the point, why do you think people deliberately eschew that definition of him? It’s the same reason I would eschew the definition of vandals to those who removed the statue.
@Sweet Square
As strikingly accurate then as it is now. The system that keeps black people oppressed is predicated on violence. It will not allow itself to be dismantled by peaceful protest and reform.
As strikingly accurate then as it is now. The system that keeps black people oppressed is predicated on violence. It will not allow itself to be dismantled by peaceful protest and reform.
A majority of Starmer's cabinet were MPs in 2014 and could have voted against the Immigration Act that introduced the charge. They didn't. The only Labour MPs who did? Mark Lazarowicz, Fiona Mactaggart, Dennis Skinner, Diane Abbott, John McDonnell & Jeremy Corbyn.
And they don't want to.
He's going to get beaten by Rishi Sunak at the next election