Keir Starmer Labour Leader
- Thread starter Damien
- Start date
The last thing we want to do is try and influence a government in waiting by pointing out the error of their way.
If you show displeasure to any Labour policies then you're backing a Tory government. If the Shadow Chancellor gets endorsements from extreme Thatcherite/Reaganite politicians and you question why, you're backing a Tory government.
It seems a right wing government (regardless of their banner) will be taking control after next election. And so many people will simply accept it because it doesn't seem as bad as it was 10 years ago, despite 10 years ago being the beginning of the UK's recent downfall. When they take power and the opposition take a more extreme stance which will inevitably lead to previously unthinkable topics being discussed as serious things to debate, then we are truly fecked.
Well the general voting public were perfectly entitled to think in 2019 that Corbyn was a worse option as PM than Johnson. But in the case of Collins, considering he has had a long association with Labour and I assume has been a party member for quite a while (there was talk about him becoming a candidate in a safe Labour seat in the 2010 general election). So him thinking (and publicly tweeting) that an elected Labour leader is a worse option as PM than any Tory alternative, let alone a Tory incumbent that can't be bothered to work hard and is incapbale of telling the truth, is pretty farcical stuff.
Also bear in mind that had Corbyn (miraculously) become PM, centrist Labour MPs through strength in numbers would have wielded a huge amount of power over the government. and would have been able to influence policy, inflict Commons defeats on Corbyn etc. Also there's a pretty strong chance that any Labour government whether Corbyn was the leader or anyone would have taken the pandemic more seriously from an earlier stage than Johnson and the Tories, and would have at least been able to reduce the death toll. So again someone with a long link with the Labour party thinking that was worse than a majority government led by Johnson, makes zero sense (and you have to question why with that opinion he's even in the Labour party).
I see your point but consider this. Almost all the people who knew and worked with Corbyn, many for decades, didn't believe in him as leader. It might be he really is as useless as everyone thought.
Oh, that's a shame. Labour are not really living up to expectations on what their party should stand for at all are they? And not stating what they would do at least a year before a general election and committing to a manifesto? How disappointing. Oh well, nothing to do I guess but not vote Labour and give the Tories an even longer amount of time to syphon money for their mates and ruin my country further. *sigh*
The feck you talking about? The problem is precisely that we have to vote for this bunch of ineffectual arseholes and they're taking full advantage of that fact by dragging Labour as far to the right as they can.
Any lost votes for Labour are down to Starmer.
His policies, integrity and behaviour are what may influence some voters to go elsewhere.
For example, making 10 leadership pledges to gain the position and then backtracking on every single one doesnt help. Just looks like another lying, useless political leader who cares for no one but themselves. *sigh*
They'll still win the next GE, but the following GE, the Tories in opposition will shift even further right and Starmer will have changed nothing for voters, ehich weakens Labour.
Centre right parties in power effect little change, which emboldens and grows the far right over time. Look what happened just prior to Trump winning in the USA and even the close run far right push recently in France following Macron. It's a pattern that will repeat again.
See, when the alternative to a right wing labour government is the current shower we have in charge, I don't necessarily see voting for this iteration of Labour as a problem. I might be naive, but I don't think they'll adopt exactly the same sort of policies whilst in government as the far right extremists we have at the moment.
Brilliant, Starmer's to blame. I'll remember that when the Tories continue to hold office for a further 5 years because I couldn't bring myself to vote for Labour under him. I'm sure that'll help me to feel better about it.
I don't like all of the directions that Starmer and his frontbench are taking the Labour Party. Far from it. But I'll gladly vote for any candidate which helps to get rid of the Tories. If its Labour, then so be it.
Besides, the two main parties have always shifted to the centre in opposition before forming the next government. Don't see why the Tories won't be the same in opposition this time.
A right-wing Labour government is still a right-wing government. It's Tory utopia having your only opposition a watered down version of you. We'll soon get to the point where anything historically considered "Centrist" will be labelled as extremist.
Feudal systems and oligarchies are very attractive to people that currently hold wealth and power. If we don't attempt to change course then that's our future.
That's politics. Unfortunately for many, Starmer has gone too far and lost some left leaning votes to appeal to the right. I'm sure that's a strategic decision he and his team have made.
You seem to be blaming Corbyn for Labour's results under Corbyn's leadership, not the people who didn't vote for him:
Yet, here you seem to be preemptively blaming the voters for maybe not voting Starmer, instead of blaming Starmer.
Maybe he was, though Starmer seemed very supportive of his leadership ahead of the 2019 GE, and then during the 2020 leadership contest, before changing his tune.
And members of and senior figures within the Labour party thinking that Corbyn was useless, wishing that Burnham or Cooper had won the 2015 leadership contest (though IIRC Cooper's leadership campaign was boring and uninspiring), thinking that Starmer now, or previous Labour leaders were way better than him, is perfectly fine. But thinking that he would have been a worse PM than Johnson (or any of the other recent Tory leaders), is inexecusable and incompatible with Labour party membership. It's like being a Lib Dem and supporting Brexit.
It's as if they think we've forgotten the 2019 vote and all the campaigning centrists did against Corbyn.
Suddenly now the Tories are bad and we must do whatever we can keep to them out, even if it means voting for Starmer. Where was this energy four years ago?
Good thread searching, I commend you my friend.
Like it or not, whether you thought that Corbyn was stitched up by the right wing of the party or he was subject to an unfair media witch hunt, a majority of voters cited Corbyn as the no.1 reason they didn't vote Labour. So Corbyn was the reason they lost it. Knowing this, and knowing that potentially Starmer is possibly trying to appease key voters and constituencies in order to get into government, regardless of if you agree with most or all of his policies, they are still an infinitely better option than what we have. What's more, because of our voting system, they are the only viable option at this moment. For the far left to then withhold from voting Labour purely because they don't like their leader and the direction he is taking their party is handing Rishi Sunak the keys to no.10 gift wrapped.
Yes, I had a different view on Corbyn, but the circumstances were different. Personally, I'd rather any Labour party in government than one with all the greatest socialist policies in the world and ambitions to make our country a fairer and more prosperous place... perpetually in opposition. I wish it would have been Corbyn, but it wasn't. Just like I wanted it to be Miliband, but it wasn't. I just want these feckers out, any which way possible.
The Tories have always been fecking bad! I voted Labour ever since I've been able to vote, so don't assume I didn't have the same energy back then as I do now!
In the same way that the centrists handed the keys to May, which then again lead to Boris Johnson. Then Truss, then Sunak. They're all governing on the back of those results.
Meaning that the centrist Labour voters are to blame for... pretty much everything, right?
That last bit wasn't aimed at you specifically but it's definitely a trend I've seen online
Nandy is a much more effective a communicator than Rayner, who I think is pretty terrible at it.
Welfare Bill abstainer Liz Kendall as Shadow Cabinet Minister in charge of benefits, Rachel 'tougher than the Tories on welfare' Reeves as Shadow Chancellor.
Think I've got an idea who'll be blamed by the Starmer Party for the state of the economy, lads.
Think I've got an idea who'll be blamed by the Starmer Party for the state of the economy, lads.
I think the problem I have is witnessing democracy in this country be reduced to what is essentially an argument about corruption. Beyond that what we seem to be witnessing is a difference in tone rather than policy. "They're not quite as bad" isn't very encouraging when we have so many issues that require fixing, yet none of which current Labour seem capable of even beginning to address. Looking forward I also see having such a right wing Labour as a great victory for far right extremists because it sets the agenda for future political debate in this country. The centre slips ever rightwards. I want Starmer in, obviously, but with absolutely no enthusiasm. I can't see his term being anything other than a disappointment, but instead envisage a country in a holding pattern waiting for the next iteration of the Conservative Party.
Sometimes Labour just want to shoot themselves in the foot. Why scrap the mental health portfolio?
Seems like a backwards step. There is a massive mental health crisis in the country and should be taken very seriously.
That said, if the role is being absorbed the health and social care remit it could work since so closely linked
Every child should have one, fully-funded hour long session with a metal health specialist in secondary school. If only to normalise talking about their feelings. Even to chat. Part of the curriculum. Like French or bunking PE
It's not Labours base voters that has given up on Labour, but Labour that has given up on it's voters. The choice is tory or tory. Why should a traditionalist Labour voter, vote for either of those choices?
I have already said that I will vote for them, but can see why millions could chose not to. Voting tory leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Yes that makes sense. If politicians wanted people to be happy they'd introduce that, lessons to improve financial literacy and critical thinking.
The other side of the mental health crisis is older people with Alzheimer's or dementia, which for obvious reasons will only get more prevalent and challenging as the population gets older
Of all people.
But when was the last time a labour government was elected that stuck to its supposed core values? The closest two leaders I can think of in my lifetime were Michael Foot and Corbyn. Both got their arses handed to them on a plate by the voters. I think that labour should be more left wing, and I’d absolutely vote for them if they were. But we should be realistic here and acknowledge that Labour sticking to its more traditional values doesn’t give us a socialist Britain, it gives us lengthy periods of Tory government
But this will be another Tory Government. They are not Blair, Tory Lite. They are full fat Tory. So I ask again why should any traditional Labour voters vote for them.
Oh I see your point now, sorry. I absolutely disagree though, that they are inseparable from the Tories, I think Starmer has learnt from what happened to Corbyn and Miliband, and is being exceptionally careful not to release a policy which the right-wing press could jump on, and put off all the middle of the road voters. It's happened repeatedly over the last 15 years, and has led to continued Tory government. My guess is that KS believes that most traditional working class voters will vote Labour anyway, if a little begrudgingly. But the centrist middle, which he needs in order to get a majority, may revert to voting Tory if they are worried about a 'socialist' govt. I guess it's a numbers game at this point.
Its not about mental health or any policy.
Its scarpped because it is high profile and she is a very good MP.
This is about starmer getting rid of anyone who may offer something he can't, independent thought and charisma.
Like all authoritarians, he is, ultimately, a coward.
For me it's simply because sans any other choice I'd rather get rogered gently. I agree it's not compelling to all but it is persuasive to me.
She is on record as praising ian duncan smith in his attitude to benefits.
Anyone - at all - still pretending this labour government will reverse any of the worst tory policies should now be quiet. They won't. If anything, they will be even harsher on ordinary people than the tories.
I also hoped something along these lines, but in reality he already had a huge poll lead, infrastructure is crumbling all around us and the Tories have already revealed themselves corrupt and a shambles. In such circumstances you'd think voting intention would be sticky over a range of policies. Nonetheless every week reveals another Starmer waltz to the right. It's difficult for me to believe that this is just electoral expedience. It feels like ideology. Democracy as character preference rather than policy choice. Corporate wonderland.
You put it well, and I wish I had more certainty that you were wrong! You're right that, if ever an opposition leader had a little leeway, it's KS, right now. I guess we'll find out in a year or so.