Keir Starmer Labour Leader

Fingeredmouse said:
His remit is to win an election. It is apparently general consensus that this is how you do so. The left died by conceding that actual left wing policies won't win the popular imagination and to alter policy to reflect and appease the right is the only path to victory. This is what people mean by pragmatic, centrist politics. I doff my cap to my feudal overlords and look forward to the possibility of the continuation of Daily Mail vetted policies being implemented by well dressed competent chaps with pleasant manners whilst my politics are vilified as extremist rather than the current less well mannered, incompetent brazen bastards. It'll be a refreshing change.
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Exactly.

“The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
 
It's bs that if Labour abstain they'll avoid being tarnished by how shit the deal is. They've been fecking appalling on Brexit from the get go.
 
Jippy said:
It's bs that if Labour abstain they'll avoid being tarnished by how shit the deal is. They've been fecking appalling on Brexit from the get go.
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So, by extension they should just vote for it anyway? They've been appalling so they may as well continue to vote for anything the Tories propose because it seems consistent and therefore it's better optics?
 
Fingeredmouse said:
So, by extension they should just vote for it anyway? They've been appalling so they may as well continue to vote for anything the Tories propose because it seems consistent and therefore it's better optics?
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They're your words, not mine. Starmer is clearly in a bit of a lose-lose situation. Back a shit deal, vote against the shit deal with the outside risk it sparks a no deal scenario and the media flak or abstain and look like you're sitting on the fence again.

I'd rather he took a stance tbh. Vote against it if he wants it all pinned on the Tories. The papers will slaughter him, certainly short-term and it's easy ammo for the Tories, but if the economy is tanking in four years then it could look a prescient move.
 
When is abstention bad = when Starmer says so.

When is abstention good = when Starmer says so.

Such a shrewd political master.
 
He has already stained Labours reputation with some indefensible abstentions this year.

No doubt he will choose some fence sitting position for Brexit too.

I've completely lost faith in him.
 
sun_tzu said:
letting it be a free vote would seem the best solution all round ... fingers crossed its just an excuse to kick out Burgon, Wrong Daily, Mcdonnell and Abbott if they vote against
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I agree. Labour can effect nothing just now, voting 'against' anything looks bad as the Country is trying to keep its head above water.

A free vote lets Starmer look over his shoulder and count his real allies in the Parliamentary Labour Party and gives him some indication of those he will have to chastise further down the road and those he needs to get rid of before the real battles start. I reckon he's got 18 months to 2 years to lick Labour into shape and that is only to be able to 'dent' the Tory Majority in the next GE. The real fight comes midway through the next Parliament. The only thing that could change that is if Boris gets fed up and leaves, or the Tory party 'Mandarins' believe "we can take it from here Boris' and wait for a Margaret Thatcher moment to plunge the knife.
 
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The ERG “Star Chamber” (name indicative of overgrown schoolboys) gave the deal their blessing so, with an 80 seat majority, there is no risk of the deal not getting through the Commons. Labour should be ripping this deal to shreds in the debate and throwing back at Johnson and Gove all the false claims they made over the last 5 years.

I’m not a fan of opposition for opposition’s sake but with Starmer I am starting to wonder what the end game is - it’s like watching LVG’s United harmlessly pass the ball sidewards for 90 minutes.
 
Jippy said:
It's bs that if Labour abstain they'll avoid being tarnished by how shit the deal is. They've been fecking appalling on Brexit from the get go.
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Completely agree. For a top barrister, his argument is absolutely atrocious. Avoiding a no-deal is fair enough. Abstaining is also totally fair enough, considering there is no where near enough time to properly digest the deal. Therefore, it is prudent to abstain on the grounds that you don't actually know what you're voting for. However, to vote against would be to allow no-deal, which is to be understandably avoided.

So allow abstentions you moron, or you'll have the situation in 10 years time where you'll be tarnished for voting for a shit deal (similar to voting for the Iraq war, which was also obviously a shit idea at the time!).
 
Like it or not, it’s settled. This deal is the basis of our future relationship with Europe for the foreseeable future. Accepting it doesn’t stop labour seeking a better deal in future.
 
nickm said:
Like it or not, it’s settled. This deal is the basis of our future relationship with Europe for the foreseeable future. Accepting it doesn’t stop labour seeking a better deal in future.
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Why not just allow a free vote though? It's going through, and when we see just how badly this affects the country over the next few years, tories can rightly point out that labour voted for it too. Given the short time it's been presented they could even abstain saying they havent had time to read it
 
Spark said:
Completely agree. For a top barrister, his argument is absolutely atrocious. Avoiding a no-deal is fair enough. Abstaining is also totally fair enough, considering there is no where near enough time to properly digest the deal. Therefore, it is prudent to abstain on the grounds that you don't actually know what you're voting for. However, to vote against would be to allow no-deal, which is to be understandably avoided.

So allow abstentions you moron, or you'll have the situation in 10 years time where you'll be tarnished for voting for a shit deal (similar to voting for the Iraq war, which was also obviously a shit idea at the time!).
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That’s all lovely and probably sounds clever if you are a sixth former debating this stuff in school, but the politics of it are that: 1) this vote is probably the most important in several decades. 2) Labour has to have a clear point of view about it 3) the country wants brexit ‘done’ 4) voting in favour doesn’t stop labour seeking something better in future.
 
Oldyella said:
Why not just allow a free vote though? It's going through, and when we see just how badly this affects the country over the next few years, tories can rightly point out that labour voted for it too. Given the short time it's been presented they could even abstain saying they havent had time to read it
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It’s the most important vote in decades. It’s about the country’s strategic relationship with its nearest neighbour. A government in waiting has to be seen to have a clear point of view about this, and be prepared to own it. That means backing it, or voting against it.
 
Oldyella said:
Why not just allow a free vote though? It's going through, and when we see just how badly this affects the country over the next few years, tories can rightly point out that labour voted for it too. Given the short time it's been presented they could even abstain saying they havent had time to read it
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I wouldn’t be happy if my MP abstained from this vote - and that’s one of the issues here.

voting against the bill en mass just opens up the divisions in the party. There’s nothing to gain from voting against the bill - it’s a sensible position to take to vote it through.
 
What does he run on next election though? Hes backed the deal, and backed lockdowns. Unless Tories do something else between now and then(which is possible) hes just a different shade of blue.

Hes said he wont look to make major changes so we are stuck with this.
 
Oldyella said:
What does he run on next election though? Hes backed the deal, and backed lockdowns. Unless Tories do something else between now and then(which is possible) hes just a different shade of blue.

Hes said he wont look to make major changes so we are stuck with this.
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perhaps look at the domestic agenda... jobs/ education/ welfare.

We’ve left the EU. What’s the point in opposing it - labour can’t affect any change.

pick your battles. Don’t oppose everything, that’s not effective opposition.
 
nickm said:
That’s all lovely and probably sounds clever if you are a sixth former debating this stuff in school, but the politics of it are that: 1) this vote is probably the most important in several decades. 2) Labour has to have a clear point of view about it 3) the country wants brexit ‘done’ 4) voting in favour doesn’t stop labour seeking something better in future.
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Ahhh thanks nickm for explaining it for me. Turns out the country just wants brexit (sic) 'done'! Yay let's back all 1200 pages of the most significant agreements in history having only had a week to digest it.

1) the vote will pass with or without Labour. Abstaining is taking a stance, it's not "sitting on the fence".
2) Labour do have a clear point of view - that it's a shit deal, but want to avoid no deal. Not a single Labour MP has said it's fantastic.
3) The country doesn't want "no deal" - leave the "get Brexit done" rubbish to Tory strategists.
4) True, but it makes it much harder to disassociate yourself from a deal that no one knows the affects of yet. However, it's looking certain that this deal is just "no-deal light", packaged as a trade agreement. It's understandable if a vast swathe of Labour MPs do not want to stand with the ayes.

All he has to do is not whip his party. Loads will abstain, a fair few will vote for it, the bill will pass. He avoids a needless civil war, resignations and sackings.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
perhaps look at the domestic agenda... jobs/ education/ welfare.

We’ve left the EU. What’s the point in opposing it - labour can’t affect any change.

pick your battles. Don’t oppose everything, that’s not effective opposition.
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They are relying on people who do want to be part of the EU to vote for them just to avoid further Tory governments then. Same as they relied in the red wall previously and how did that work out? Makes a lot of people politically homeless.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
"...Interview with Keir Starmer on the eve of the Brexit vote - on how Labour will move on from divisions over Europe and not seek to change the deal - even in government"
https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...ges-to-uks-relationship-with-eu-keir-starmer?
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Well he's actually saying they're going to Windows 10 it and push for a few tweaks here and there rather than seek to renegotiate it all at once. Which isn't necessarily the worst idea since everyone is sick of Brexit at the moment. However, at what point is he going to actually stick a stake in the ground and say he believes in something? I'm struggling with this guy because I can certainly understand the need to pick his battles but, does he have any battles in him? What is the point of him right now?

Surely a pandemic where the government were spending money for fun and socialist values came to the fore would have been the perfect time to make a case for something big - tech tax to pay for social care? Universal Basic Income instead of furlough? Attack the £1.4tn wasted on Quantitative Easing? Something, do fecking something you saucer faced twat!
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
"...Interview with Keir Starmer on the eve of the Brexit vote - on how Labour will move on from divisions over Europe and not seek to change the deal - even in government"
https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...ges-to-uks-relationship-with-eu-keir-starmer?
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The EU clearly does not want to go through this hassle every five years with successive UK governments, but there is that clause that says it can be scrapped after four years. No idea if is there much scope for renegotiating portions of it then too?
Seems hard to gauge how long this current deal will be immutable.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
"...Interview with Keir Starmer on the eve of the Brexit vote - on how Labour will move on from divisions over Europe and not seek to change the deal - even in government"
https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...ges-to-uks-relationship-with-eu-keir-starmer?
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He says he won't seek to renegotiate it, which is probably wise. That isn't the same as not making smaller agreements which might be needed here and there.

Also worth noting - most likely - there's not many votes in keeping the Brexit fires burning short term,. when there are other issues like the NHS which are of more immediate concern. I would imagine he's gambling that politics will return to something like pre-brexit business as usual.

Even if Brexit turns out crap, it'll be the Tories who get the blame, not Labour.
 
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Spark said:
Ahhh thanks nickm for explaining it for me. Turns out the country just wants brexit (sic) 'done'! Yay let's back all 1200 pages of the most significant agreements in history having only had a week to digest it.

1) the vote will pass with or without Labour. Abstaining is taking a stance, it's not "sitting on the fence".
2) Labour do have a clear point of view - that it's a shit deal, but want to avoid no deal. Not a single Labour MP has said it's fantastic.
3) The country doesn't want "no deal" - leave the "get Brexit done" rubbish to Tory strategists.
4) True, but it makes it much harder to disassociate yourself from a deal that no one knows the affects of yet. However, it's looking certain that this deal is just "no-deal light", packaged as a trade agreement. It's understandable if a vast swathe of Labour MPs do not want to stand with the ayes.

All he has to do is not whip his party. Loads will abstain, a fair few will vote for it, the bill will pass. He avoids a needless civil war, resignations and sackings.
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That would be such a weak thing for him to do on such a defining issue - to put internal party naval gazing above making a call on the biggest vote in a generation. It's a terrible idea and it'd go down badly in the wider country, I'm pretty sure.

Yeah, I get it's shit if like me you are (now to be considered to be) a die hard pro European. But this is the settlement. You can't abstain on an issue like this if you want to be taken seriously as a government and as a PM. So right now, today, it's vote for this bad deal or no deal. Then draw a line under it, and prepare to shape the battles to come, because this isn't going away (for people like me anyway).
 
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TwoSheds said:
Well he's actually saying they're going to Windows 10 it and push for a few tweaks here and there rather than seek to renegotiate it all at once. Which isn't necessarily the worst idea since everyone is sick of Brexit at the moment. However, at what point is he going to actually stick a stake in the ground and say he believes in something? I'm struggling with this guy because I can certainly understand the need to pick his battles but, does he have any battles in him? What is the point of him right now?

Surely a pandemic where the government were spending money for fun and socialist values came to the fore would have been the perfect time to make a case for something big - tech tax to pay for social care? Universal Basic Income instead of furlough? Attack the £1.4tn wasted on Quantitative Easing? Something, do fecking something you saucer faced twat!
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What's the point in making policy proposals 4 years from an election?
 
nickm said:
Why should he make policy proposals 4 years from an election? Pointless.
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Because it's a time where the country would actually be interested to hear from him and potentially receptive to good ideas. Labour lost the last election because they spaffed all their ideas out last minute without giving themselves time to explain them all and it looked like they were bluffers. Well so far Starmer actually is a bluffer.
 
nickm said:
That’s all lovely and probably sounds clever if you are a sixth former debating this stuff in school, but the politics of it are that: 1) this vote is probably the most important in several decades. 2) Labour has to have a clear point of view about it 3) the country wants brexit ‘done’ 4) voting in favour doesn’t stop labour seeking something better in future.
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Voting for the deal is the position that is least aligned with Labours view. It doesn't fool a single person it just makes Starmer look like a slimy politician. It's a good job people love slimy politicians...oh wait.

It probably sounds clever if you're so far up Starmers backside you can't have an objective viewpoint though.
 
Smores said:
Voting for the deal is the position that is least aligned with Labours view. It doesn't fool a single person it just makes Starmer look like a slimy politician. It's a good job people love slimy politicians...oh wait.
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Not so, voting for no deal is even less aligned with Labour's view. So really not sure what you are talking about. Starmer's looks responsible not slimy. Look I don't like it either but I'm not sure how else he can really play this shite hand he's been dealt, if he wants to look like the leader of a govt in waiting and not like the leader of a pressure group.

Smores said:
It probably sounds clever if you're so far up Starmers backside you can't have an objective viewpoint though.
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I was initially against Starmer's approach until I actually thought about it. At a gut level, as Remain, I didn't like it. But given the situation, I think this is the only responsible call.
 
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TwoSheds said:
Because it's a time where the country would actually be interested to hear from him and potentially receptive to good ideas. Labour lost the last election because they spaffed all their ideas out last minute without giving themselves time to explain them all and it looked like they were bluffers. Well so far Starmer actually is a bluffer.
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Doesn't work like that, I'm afraid. All people care about at the moment is Covid. Nobody cares what Labour's policy positions are at the moment. They do want to know what Labour cares about though, values-wise, I give you that, but you don't need to make policy commitments for that.
 
nickm said:
Doesn't work like that, I'm afraid. All people care about at the moment is Covid. Nobody cares what Labour's policy positions are at the moment. They do want to know what Labour cares about though, values-wise, I give you that, but you don't need to make policy commitments for that.
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Ok, accepting that for now, what does Starmer's Labour party stand for values wise?
 
nickm said:
Doesn't work like that, I'm afraid. All people care about at the moment is Covid. Nobody cares what Labour's policy positions are at the moment. They do want to know what Labour cares about though, values-wise, I give you that, but you don't need to make policy commitments for that.
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Ok fine, what are the values then? I take policy announcements as an indicator of values but if there's another way to convey it what are they doing? Nothing from him, he's the invisible man relying on the fact his opponent is incompetent to win but it's not enough. Chances are Boris will have the knife stuck in before the next election anyway and someone like Sunak with a cracked veneer of "competence" will come in and what's Starmer's play then? He'll have nothing on current evidence, he'll be shouting about mishandling a pandemic 4 years ago under a different leader.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Ok, accepting that for now, what does Starmer's Labour party stand for values wise?
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Good question, don't know yet. Probably 'competence' is the only one that's landing at all. To be fair to Labour, it's not been a great year to try to make the political weather.
 
nickm said:
Not so, voting for no deal is even less aligned with Labour's view. So really not sure what you are talking about. Starmer's looks responsible not slimy. Look I don't like it either but I'm not sure how else he can really play this shite hand he's been dealt, if he wants to look like the leader of a govt in waiting and not like the leader of a pressure group.



I was initially against Starmer's approach until I actually thought about it. At a gut level, as Remain, I didn't like it. But given the situation, I think this is the only responsible call.
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In no world is abstaining or voting against this deal 'voting for no deal'. The Tories have the numbers by a ridiculous margin, a logic that half been used to excuse all the abstaining till now.

You've all been championing his 'let the Tories own it' approach. Yet suddenly it's unreasonable to let the Tories own it when it matters. Stick to one set of logic rather than this backwards rationalisation to justify whatever he comes out with.

A simple message of "We can't support a bad deal for this country but we won't block it as the people have tasked the PM with this endeavour. This is the PMs deal he now has to sell it to his own party" is a perfectly reasonable position.
 
nickm said:
Good question, don't know yet. Probably 'competence' is the only one that's landing at all. To be fair to Labour, it's not been a great year to try to make the political weather.
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It hasn't? The government have made a real feck up of the pandemic response, the economy is teetering as a result of it (and Brexit), house prices have increased unsustainably again, corruption is rife, if you can't actually get into the lead in the polls now what hope have you got if the economy is going alright in 4 years time?
 
Smores said:
In no world is abstaining or voting against this deal 'voting for no deal'. The Tories have the numbers by a ridiculous margin, a logic that half been used to excuse all the abstaining till now.

You've all been championing his 'let the Tories own it' approach. Yet suddenly it's unreasonable to let the Tories own it when it matters. Stick to one set of logic rather than this backwards rationalisation to justify whatever he comes out with.

A simple message of "We can't support a bad deal for this country but we won't block it as the people have tasked the PM with this endeavour. This is the PMs deal he now has to sell it to his own party" is a perfectly reasonable position.
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But that's not simple, it fact it reeks of disingenuousness.

  1. it's a terrible deal for the country but even if we could block it, we won't, that's how principled we are.
  2. it's a terrible deal for the country, but although we can't block it, we'll pretend we can but won't, that's how principled we are
  3. it's a terrible deal for the country but even though there's no other deal, and no deal is far worse, we'll sit this one out, that's how principled we are

The obvious accusation is that if you don't support this deal, then you support no deal because there is no other deal - you don't get to credibly support 'nothing'. And the Tories get to beat up Labour for being no dealers, anti Brexit, not credible, disingenuous etc. The hair splitting in your position wouldn't hold.

so labour has concluded: 'it's a terrible deal but even this terrible deal is better for the country than the alternative. Therefore we have to support it on that principle'.
 
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TwoSheds said:
It hasn't? The government have made a real feck up of the pandemic response, the economy is teetering as a result of it (and Brexit), house prices have increased unsustainably again, corruption is rife, if you can't actually get into the lead in the polls now what hope have you got if the economy is going alright in 4 years time?
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Since the start of the pandemic, labour's cut the Tory poll from 51% to 38%, and has pulled slightly ahead in December (although still within the margin of error). Clearly much of what you observe has helped, so you know, take the win! It's not a bad place to enter the new year for Labour, a new year full of political opportunities for them (Brexit/europe nullified as an issue of political identity, covid out of the headlines) but with huge stresses being put on schools, hospitals, public services etc - all labour strengths. There will be a public inquiry into covid, that'll be nice for labour. Houseprices will decline - tory voters will love that. The Tories have very hard questions to answer on how they'll cut spending/raise taxes. Parliament will be sitting again, properly. Again, all opportunities for Labour - target rich environment if you ask me.
 
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