But Johnson just gets away with it,and is never called out for all the bluffing and lying. And sadly not many watch PMQs.
Keir Starmer Labour Leader
- Thread starter Damien
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But Johnson just gets away with it,and is never called out for all the bluffing and lying. And sadly not many watch PMQs.
Because governments in waiting have to show voters they will take a clear position on crucial matters of the national interest, eg international treaties. He's not leading a pressure group or gaggle of activists here.
He's also showing that labour accepts the issue is now fundamentally settled.
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Of all the things to get worked up about. Honestly you have to laugh at some of the labour 'support' sometimes.
Yeah, in a year like 2020, let's heap on more doom and gloom on the British people by saying how everything is going to be just as terrible if not worse next year
The Starmer project really is just about memory holing the past decade.
Not sure what this means, but since I read it my dog has been going apeshit.
Yep or the guy is just pig shit thick.
The only correct answer is all tories all vermin but at the very least pick some old cnut like John Major or Ken Clarke, don't pick the tory who recently deported black British citizens and was part of the the last decade of tory austerity.
It seems weird to level that accusation at a QC, but I was thinking this yesterday.
The precise problem with May is we saw very clearly exactly what 'moral framework' she possessed and it is absolutely abhorrent.
It's weird how a couple of years being an utterly useless PM has rendered her decade being a cnut in the home office irrelevant in the public memory.
Anyone with a few brain cells can see that this is the case. Starmer actually wants to be elected, not just be the leader of the biggest protest party in Europe.
I think it's a really interesting point of view to think that Labour's path to power is made easier taking flak from the Tories ('see, it was such a good deal even Labour voted for it' or 'well it wasn't our fault it was such a bad deal, even Labour voted for it') or from the Lib Dems, the SNP, the Greens for backing the deal.
And by interesting I mean slightly insane.
The opposition party always wants to be elected. There are some voters who want to support a party that offers genuinely transformative policies. If Starmer is elected to be Tory Lite... what’s the point?
This will come across as elitist and I am not, but I worry that the average voter will not pick up on the nuances in the PMQ debates so like you I am concerned that Bozo is getting away with it.
Yeah I remember friends telling me how they felt sorry for her(Had to keep reminding them what a god awful arsehole she was). She was so shit people started to sympathise with her.
Very bizarre.
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they’ll take flak from the tories whatever they do.
They can go join socialist worker. Seriously. Plenty of places for people who want those kinds of policies. Don’t understand why labour, who can do plenty of good short of declaring a socialist revolution, has to continually cripple its chances of being elected to accommodate these people.
How about those in the party who want to be Tory Lite actually just join the Tories instead? Then Labour can concentrate an providing an actual alternative without the self sabotage we’ve all become accustomed to.
If there were an election in 2021 between Starmer and Johnson I'd vote for the former.
Given that I'd have voted for the monster raving loony party over the previous regime that's quite the turnaround.
If he promises tax cuts and more vehemently criticises governmental waste and cronyism I'll be a fully paid up member. Especially since the Tories have moved far to the left economically and further to the right liberally (both of which are disturbing in my view).
Given that I'd have voted for the monster raving loony party over the previous regime that's quite the turnaround.
If he promises tax cuts and more vehemently criticises governmental waste and cronyism I'll be a fully paid up member. Especially since the Tories have moved far to the left economically and further to the right liberally (both of which are disturbing in my view).
We pretty much had the same posts not so long ago defending all of Starmers abstentions on this basis
Have you lot suddenly forgot the not so distant abstentions and the defence of them?
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And which rather neatly demonstrates to all the centrists why people are worried by the direction the party is going when one of the most openly right wing posters on the site thinks that Labour might be a political home for him.
If it makes you feel any better it would be the lesser of two evils, rather than a political home.
I'd take the cost of the UK being slightly more left economically if it moved far closer to the centre liberally. Priti Patel and Matt Hancock scare the shit out of me.
Labour respond by saying that they voted to ensure that the will of the people was acted upon after years of division and make a point of highlighting the (avoidable - this bit is key) incompetence that follows. By doing this they will begin to pick up votes in places where they were lost. There was nothing to be gained by continuing to sit on the fence, or continuing to alienate those who voted for Brexit (and have since avoided Labour like the plague).
Wanting to be elected and actually being elected are two very different things. Labour can’t just appeal to the people who idolised Corbyn and Starmer knows this.
We pretty much had the same posts not so long ago defending all of Starmers abstentions on this basis
Have you lot suddenly forgot the not so distant abstentions and the defence of them?
The general public don’t give a monkeys about your run-of-the-mill voting in parliament. But they buy into one-liners: Corbyn is an anti-Semite; Labour bankrupt the country; Labour delayed Brexit.
How true any of that is doesn’t matter; it sticks.
Labour would do well to fight the next election on issues such as the economy, national security and public services. They will have a field day.
The problem is, he is not appealing to them even a tiny bit. He could have tried to be the unity candidate he pledged to be, but he isn’t. The reality is, he had to be entirely unprincipled and dishonest to become Labour leader.
He’s gambling that he can get enough right wing votes to see himself elected without losing too many on the left. When it comes to the crunch, I am not convinced this strategy will pay off.
finneh and sun are going to replace all the volunteer canvassers and campaigners come 2024.
They were not voting to uphold the will of the people. That has been done long time ago. They were voting for a horrible deal that the Tories cooked up. Labour could have said it's a bad deal and we will have nothing to do with it. It's going to pass no matter how they voted.
Now when everything goes belly up Tories will say you supported and voted for it too. And rightly so.
Well they got such a fan feking tastic result last time didn't they?
A bit more effort with the media and being portrayed as even vaguely competent probably slightly higher on the priority list than knocking on more doors I think?
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I think it’s a matter of perception; part of a longer term goal of bringing back former voters into the fold, particularity those who are older and socially more conservative. Time will tell as to whether it pays off.
I also don’t think things will go “belly up” either. I mean, it already has. But it won’t be pinned down to issues with Brexit. I’m willing to be wrong but I don’t think your average punter will notice much of a difference. The pandemic recovery is what will determine votes in the future and this is where Labour can be stronger.
Labour supported the UK joining the ERM but the tories got the blame when it went tits up, to labours great benefit, because it was the governments policy. If brexit goes bad, people will blame the tories, because they unlike labour, are the government, and they are identified with brexit. People simply will not care about how the opposition voted if there’s a government in crisis. Amazed this even needs to be said to be honest.
Removing the democratic and socialist elements that make up the core of Labours ethos will do quite the opposite. The strategy of divide and conquer will have the Tories rubbing their hands together.
You are informed by the likes of Guido, who would love to see the split and subsequent collapse of Labour. Unfortunately, alot like the hard-core Brexiters, you just can't see it.
Forensic opposition there.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/31/labour-vote-tory-brexit-keir-starmer-deal?
Labour's vote for Johnson's deal is not the end of its Brexit problems
Keir Starmer argues that voters want Brexit resolved. But supporting this deal won’t make his party’s sore spot go away
A tiny proportion of voters watch PMQs. If that is your basis for expecting a Labour win at the next election then you need to have a look at Scotland, for a start.
An open question to which I don’t pretend to know the answer - how does Starmer construct a majority or at least a coalition? Bearing in mind the following factors: Scotland is unlikely to return to the Labour fold, the price of SNP support would be indy referendum 2 and the Lib Dems have almost vanished from the electoral map.
I can point out certain things Starmer shouldn’t do (announce major policies on the hoof, allow your opponents opportunities to denounce you as unpatriotic) but, whether you think he is doing a good job or not (I’m personally underwhelmed), what should his strategy be in order to gain power?
I can point out certain things Starmer shouldn’t do (announce major policies on the hoof, allow your opponents opportunities to denounce you as unpatriotic) but, whether you think he is doing a good job or not (I’m personally underwhelmed), what should his strategy be in order to gain power?
The general rule is that oppositions don't win elections govts lose them.
I would put up 3 main policies which the Tories can't nick for ideological reasons like council house building programs for the working poor. Then just bang on and on about them for the next three years. All other policies are in revue but will have them clearly stated in the manifesto before the next election. Then get personal about Johnson. Keep asking him how many children he has at question time. It is time to be as obnoxious about him as his party is about Labour leaders. It can't be hard to make him look like an immoral and utter useless cnut because that is just what he is.
Above all else talk nice about the north and outbid the Tories on the promises to level up. The country will most likely be paying the covid bill and it will be hurting and willing to hold a grudge against the govt who was on watch and messed it all up.
Oppositions might have their work cut out to win elections, but they can very easily lose them.
You make a good point about Boris 'leveling up'. I'm sure he'll do stuff, but the amounts he spends will fall pitifully short of what would be really needed. Every few million chucked at transport should be used to highlight how unequal spending actually is, the same with health spending and so on. I look forward to a series of own goals on that policy.
You make a good point about Boris 'leveling up'. I'm sure he'll do stuff, but the amounts he spends will fall pitifully short of what would be really needed. Every few million chucked at transport should be used to highlight how unequal spending actually is, the same with health spending and so on. I look forward to a series of own goals on that policy.
Have to say that I am not a fan of levelling up the so called north. Levelling up should be a natural process and not one artificially promoted by politics.
But what Starmer must do is to focus much effort on winning back those traditional Labour voters by demonstrating that Labour values them and will never again take their votes for granted.
What some of us mean by levelling up is simply spending somewhere near the same amount per head on things like transport and health provision. I am a fan of that for sure. Boris won't get anywhere near that though, he will think a few quid here and there will be enough, and it will be right to highlight that.
Wasn't intended to be.
Levelling up is one of those phrases that sounds good but is fundamentally meaningless, a bit like Big society. I have no idea what it means in practical terms or how you'd know if it's been a success or not. Doubt very much if anything can come of it.