Do you honestly think the powers that be care if the people who's NHS they cut, who are left in a cost of living crises, who have been degraded to 2nd rate european citizens, who sit on trains worse now than 30 years ago suddenly start taking note because those people now sit in a couple of random traffic jams?
Just Stop Oil
- Thread starter Port Vale Devil
- Start date
Well, not a population that keeps voting them in, no.
Do you think they care if we stand politely by the road side with signs?
Antagonism is needed. Or are you maybe just advocating fatalism? I really don’t see any options other than tightening the screws, unless you’re comfortable with the current trajectory of our sleep-walking governments.
edit: missed your quick edit earlier
So unless I’ve found a way to divorce my life from the whole loop of society and consumption, I don’t get to say a peep?
Absolute fecking tosh, and you know it.
I had a look at their website to see what the actual aims of the protests are and I have to admit I was a little surprised, they maybe annoying cnuts at the best of times but what they are currently asking for is not unreasonable
"Just Stop Oil is a coalition of groups working together to ensure that the government commits to ending all new licenses and consents for the exploration, development and production of fossil fuels in the UK.
We demand that the UK government makes a statement that it will immediately halt all future licensing and consents for the exploration, development and production of fossil fuels in the UK."
IMO they should be targeting MP's, at constituency meetings and such like, I would think that would be much more effective, especially if said MP has ties to the Oil Industry which might not be well known, they'll get a hell of a lot more support if they get up the nose of Sunak, Braverman et-al
"Just Stop Oil is a coalition of groups working together to ensure that the government commits to ending all new licenses and consents for the exploration, development and production of fossil fuels in the UK.
We demand that the UK government makes a statement that it will immediately halt all future licensing and consents for the exploration, development and production of fossil fuels in the UK."
IMO they should be targeting MP's, at constituency meetings and such like, I would think that would be much more effective, especially if said MP has ties to the Oil Industry which might not be well known, they'll get a hell of a lot more support if they get up the nose of Sunak, Braverman et-al
Here's the way I see it:
Protestors perform a pitch invasion at major sporting events broadcast on television > their message reaches out a huge audience > it gets reported on in the news > the sporting bodies and their sponsors can then be expected to face scrutiny. That's perfectly fine.
Protestors block roads where ordinary working people are held up in traffic, some who need to go to the hospital > the only footage we see are from angry and irate drivers > people sympathise with those drivers because the amount of time lost is not just financially damaging if you can't make it to work but also potentially life damaging for ambulances being stuck with people inside needing to get medical care asap.
One can generate positive PR, the other only ever generates negative PR.
Protestors perform a pitch invasion at major sporting events broadcast on television > their message reaches out a huge audience > it gets reported on in the news > the sporting bodies and their sponsors can then be expected to face scrutiny. That's perfectly fine.
Protestors block roads where ordinary working people are held up in traffic, some who need to go to the hospital > the only footage we see are from angry and irate drivers > people sympathise with those drivers because the amount of time lost is not just financially damaging if you can't make it to work but also potentially life damaging for ambulances being stuck with people inside needing to get medical care asap.
One can generate positive PR, the other only ever generates negative PR.
No, they don't care either way.
For me everyone needs to start with themselves. That's the reason I drive an EV (seeing @Murder on Zidane's Floor is present in this thread: The past 2 years I've managed about +70% solar
) and the reason I decided not to have kids (well besides my health, might change in the future but getting unlikelier by the year). I don't take flights anymore unless absolutely needed. However I do still have work appointments, social meetings, and other activities. Occasionally I still need to get somewhere, there's no way around it.As for you personally you could very well vote in a government that doesn't sell oil to the entire world
Get a significant part of the population giving them shit and voting for greener parties and you might see that change.
For me everyone needs to start with themselves. That's the reason I drive an EV (seeing @Murder on Zidane's Floor is present in this thread: The past 2 years I've managed about +70% solar
People should do what they can, but there’s plenty of studies indicating that this needs widescale changes beyond people’s personal habits. Personally I use public transportation, take the train long distance if I can, don’t have kids (and won’t be having any), am restricting my meat intake, etc.
Kudos for doing these things, though.
As for you personally you could very well vote in a government that doesn't sell oil to the entire world
Not sure why you assume I have been voting for the parties that keep drilling for oil? Trust me, I fecking hate the policies of Norway in this field and our fake-ass green profile, and have not been voting for any status quo parties the past decade and a half.
The only people who sympathise with drivers in London is other drivers. Londoners are at large sick and tired of the everyday congestion from entitled SUV owners who think buses are for wankers.
I sympathise with the drivers, but the issie of the protest is more important.
Well I made the same mistake that I claim JSO are making in thinking everyone in a random group is responsible for the collective
My bad.Well I made the same mistake that I claim JSO are making in thinking everyone in a random group is responsible for the collective
What do you think their aim is?
Well I made the same mistake that I claim JSO are making in thinking everyone in a random group is responsible for the collective
I think that’s you reading between the lines and finding stuff that’s not there. I’m dead sure they know they’re impacting people already on their side. I’d lay off the mind-reading attempts if I were you
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Their name is an imperative. It's pretty obvious.
I really don't see myself or other's like me on their side (everyone decide for yourself). To my eyes I just don't see the difference to people who according to their conviction block of abortion clinics etc. Those people are every bit as much convinced of their own moral superiority over everyone else as JSO activists stopping traffic .I think that’s you reading between the lines. I’m dead sure they know they’re impacting people already on their side. I’d lay off the mind-reading attempts if I were you
Just wondering what are examples of societal change coming about after protests that didn't piss a lot of people off.
First of all I didn’t say you considered them on your side, I said they are impacting people THEY would consider on their side. And to be clear, what I meant is people who understand that it’s imperative that we address climate change, and who aren’t disputing the scientific facts.
Are you trying to be obtuse?
Come on man you didn’t even have to look into it, Red posted it like a couple posts above yours.
Maybe they thought naming themselves “stop the government from any future licensing and allowing exploration, development and production of fossil fuels in the UK” was a bit of a mouthful
It is a mouthful, but here's their problem, I, like probably most people, thought they were just for stopping all oil, that's not actually their stated aim, so IMO they need a new name that tells people what their goal is - something like "No New Oil Drilling"
Yeah I think that’s a decent idea, there’s definitely a fair amount of people who think they want everyone to just ditch everything immediately (I also think unscrupulous media pundits have helped propagate that too).
Until I looked at their website I thought the same, though they also provide training for protesters which makes me think they're trying to be a group of professional protesters as well
And do you honestly think they'll stop when/if they reach that stated goal?
I don't see any point in continuing this conversation to be honest.
The training is actually a good idea, it’s only a one off for a few hours. You have the legal aspect (they could face prison time etc) and how to react to verbal abuse/physical violence.
I was just telling you what their goal was, I’m not that interested in hypotheticals, unless you have some good “would you rather” ones
Finally, a point of agreement.
First they came for the crucible, and I did not speak out.
So would you rather miss your sons birth or your moms funeral due to one of their protests? You seem very invested in a hypothetical future without oil...
Doesnt really sound like a protest..
It was shitty sarcasm
Ok first of all I asked for some good ones, that’s wank. Secondly, reread our exchange, I haven’t commented on their goals once.(except for telling you what they were)
For me everyone needs to start with themselves. That's the reason I drive an EV (seeing @Murder on Zidane's Floor is present in this thread: The past 2 years I've managed about +70% solar
Solving climate change purely by individual actions is like trying to understand the submersible collapse by starting with a hydrogren wavefunction*. I'm speaking as someone who is vegetarian+ cut a lot of dairy, doesn't own a car, and minimises electricity use in my small apartment. It makes me feel better but that's about it in terms of global emissions.
*you're the physicist, right
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Why am I being dragged into this?!No, they don't care either way.
For me everyone needs to start with themselves. That's the reason I drive an EV (seeing @Murder on Zidane's Floor is present in this thread: The past 2 years I've managed about +70% solar
As for you personally you could very well vote in a government that doesn't sell oil to the entire world
I agree with you, hence why I buy old cars, thus extending and crucially, lowering their carbon footprint (technically).
Ironically I drove my 4.6 litre V8 Lexus to Wimbledon the day before the Just Oil protest.
About "disruptive"/"unpopular" protests and how the good folk will rally around other forms:
Last year a climate activist silently* burnt himself to death outside the US supreme court.
It barely registered, don't think it got a single post here, and the Supreme Court later ruled against the ability of the EPA to regulate CO2. The biggest climate impact of his protest is there is one less person consuming resources.
*in a literal sense too: he didn't scream while being burnt alive
Last year a climate activist silently* burnt himself to death outside the US supreme court.
It barely registered, don't think it got a single post here, and the Supreme Court later ruled against the ability of the EPA to regulate CO2. The biggest climate impact of his protest is there is one less person consuming resources.
*in a literal sense too: he didn't scream while being burnt alive
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I'm at Wimbledon for the tennis and behind me there's a few young right wingers who are complaining that they're not allowed to shoot the protestors. They concluded it's probably fair enough that they aren't shot because cleaning up all the mess would delay the game even further.
I hope they don't try and disrupt the F1 this weekend, so much more dangerous than other sporting events they try protest at.
Yup. The very first time I heard about them (Which was from someone else) this was the impression that I got, that they just want everything stopped immediately.
I noticed that. He was following the Vietnamese Monks who did the same self-death protest against the US invasion.
People are saying that they disrupt drivers and traffic. That's sort of the point. You are driving. It's 25% of global emissions. It's not an accident. Less an inconvenience to be told you both have cancer and are actively causing it (for your kids, too, both literally and metaphorically) than not be to be told. Maybe that's why people react (what can I do about it?). You could stop driving and lobby the government to fund public transportation. Or, you could consider it to be on par with the smoking ban some 15 years ago. People complained then, too. But at least smokers are mostly only killing themselves and paying more than enough tax to meet the bill for their treatment (the government makes a profit on lung cancers from tobacco weirdly in pure tax terms). Drivers, en masse, are more dangerous than ever smokers were to themselves and the entire planet. There is no "rebuild the North/South icecap" tax going even as fuel is taxed so what are people supposed to do if not protest? It's absurd. It's always going to be invconvenient. It has to be.
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It wouldn't accomplish much but I don't see how their current tactics accomplish much either. All they're doing is pissing people off.
We're talking about global warming on Redcafe. We wouldn't be if they did what you want.
The first time the whole concept of climate change etc entered my consciousness was sometime in the 80s but I didnt really take much notice. I first took notice sometime in the late 90s while snowboarding in the US at Lake Tahoe. We were there when the American River flooded and battered a town called Placerville. At the time there was lots of news reports about this storm and its relation to climate change. I started following the website www.realclimate.org about then too. That was either 97 or 98, I forget. Sadly even with this world awareness picking up pace in the mid to late 80s sweet feck all has been done and possibly one of the most damning facts is that the most damage has been done in the last 25 years. Greta using the phrase
"blah blah blah" to describe our lack of action and massive amount of talking is really accurate. If the Just Stop Oil people are pissing everyone off then great, we havent responded to the softly softly polite approach so its time for disruption. If I attend some public event or sports event and Just Stop Oil interrupt or even cause it to be called off then I will be cheering them on. feck our complacency and feck our apathy.Im a fan of theirs.
"blah blah blah" to describe our lack of action and massive amount of talking is really accurate. If the Just Stop Oil people are pissing everyone off then great, we havent responded to the softly softly polite approach so its time for disruption. If I attend some public event or sports event and Just Stop Oil interrupt or even cause it to be called off then I will be cheering them on. feck our complacency and feck our apathy.Im a fan of theirs.
Just disrupted a pride march apparently. Maybe they just hate lubricants
Great post. And RealClimate is an amazing website!
In the end, the only way to make sustainability sustainable (uhm), is to make it profitable to go green. Most people simply can't grasp the severity of the damage climate change will do in the long run and while they acknowledge the problem and see it as such, they care far more that taking a train instead of a car will increase their daily commute by half an hour. Not because they're evil and don't care about the future of their children, but because most people are simply wired to care less about problems that have not yet materialized for them. For these people, you need to make the green option the easiest/ cheapest/ most convenient option for the average man, otherwise they simply won't take it. Not because they're evil, just because they're human, and human's are generally a bit daft.
These protests illustrate this fact nicely, since quite a few people say stuff like, yes climate change is bad, but these people are just annoying, can't they feck off? A personal annoyance is placed above the fate of our planet, it sounds silly, but it's true.
These protests illustrate this fact nicely, since quite a few people say stuff like, yes climate change is bad, but these people are just annoying, can't they feck off? A personal annoyance is placed above the fate of our planet, it sounds silly, but it's true.
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