Just Stop Oil

If green energy can make the real breakthrough technically and logistically, oil will be immediately abandoned. How far is it?
 
NotThatSoph said:
Please, explain to me. Say that, for instance, they did something that @Red in STL agreed with. What would that accomplish? Why would they want his approval?
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Not even my wife or kids ask for my approval these days!

Part of the problem is that these folks are telling us to stop using oil without proposing a realistic alternative, I'd love to have an electric car, or power my house using solar panels (would have been bloody handy the last few days), but I don't, like the vast majority of people, have the money to do so, there are people who can change that, but they don't have the will to do it
 
city-puma said:
If green energy can make the real breakthrough technically and logistically, oil will be immediately abandoned. How far is it?
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Some of that technology is available now, Britain is one of the world leaders in tidal energy but to many objections to the negative aspects such as building costs always win out, yes there are problems but they are resolvable and if Toyota are to be believed they have just come up with something that will make all ICE cars and current EV's redundant - but ordinary people are unlikely to be able to afford one
 
Red in STL said:
Not even my wife or kids ask for my approval these days!

Part of the problem is that these folks are telling us to stop using oil without proposing a realistic alternative, I'd love to have an electric car, or power my house using solar panels (would have been bloody handy the last few days), but I don't, like the vast majority of people, have the money to do so, there are people who can change that, but they don't have the will to do it
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Just a random shoutout, they wouldn't (and shouldn't) care about my approval either.
 
Red in STL said:
Part of the problem is that these folks are telling us to stop using oil without proposing a realistic alternative, I'd love to have an electric car, or power my house using solar panels (would have been bloody handy the last few days), but I don't, like the vast majority of people, have the money to do so, there are people who can change that, but they don't have the will to do it
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I think they're not really telling you to do this. I think their goal is rather to ram awareness down everyone's throats, so a critical mass of concerned citizens is created that politicians and companies will have to listen to.

Right now, we really don't have that. People might say they're worried about climate change, but as long as most people care more about 'the economy' (which is a mistake, but I won't sidetrack this post) than about radical action being taken ASAP, then all this 'concern' is worth nothing in terms of actually achieving change.

And yes, all those things you list would be very possible (available and affordable) if governments would really put their shoulders under the right measures, instead of just paying lip service to the cause without really doing anything about it.

(Like: the current centre-right government of Ontario cut all kinds of green incentives and subsidies when they got into power and opposes whatever green measures the Canadian federal government wants. But now they're spending millions (probably; they're refusing to disclose the cost) on a huge ad campaign that tells Ontarians that 'the future is electric', to promote how they attracted electric car industry factories to Ontario. All air and no substance - but why would they change that approach if voters aren't clamoring for it?)
 
neverdie said:
There is a complete lack of ambition and a general takeover of the states by companies (we all knew this already, we just called it politics but the divide, public and private, grows so thin as to make it seem as there is no public at all, in certain European and other democratic stats). Leaving it to a vanguard of fortune 500 types, which is the general way it is being handled, is a waste of time. Those are the people that look at the stock prices of oil. Consider: why does oil have any worth on the futures market, beyond a certain cut-off date, I dunno, like ten years into the future, if any of these cnuts are seriously acting behind all the vebiage they spew?

Their feet will have to be held to the coals. Or the species will die.


Also, these protests are a pain in the arse if you're caught up in them but the media, again, goes out of its way to frame them in very specific types of caricatures.

GreenPeace CheeseEating EcoWarriers Disrupts Patriots On the Way to Keep Britain Running, says GBNews or whatever other cancerous such outlet is dubbed liberal right-wing these days, and the liberal left is scarecely better (they want the liberal right to frame it this way so they have a talking point to weigh back in on). A dying system evident in the parasitical organs of the body politic (again, global).

https://www.cmegroup.com/markets/energy/crude-oil/light-sweet-crude.quotes.html

The price of crude, seven years into the future, which you may or may not bother to look at, is where it was circa 2006 and certain periods in the early austerity era. Lower than today, which is price-gouged mania, whatever about the war, (67-54 not being tiny, but it was at sub-40 for various years and lower for various quarters). If it is to exist at all, as viable entity, it will be as petro-chemical which implies a vast depreciation in value as many more engines cease to use the refined version. But I don't see this in markets. Taking every last penny they can get, the OPEC and non OPEC states (Americans included here, see the campaign if you follow the primaries and the various pipelines through indigenous lands, think Canada has such a problem but may be old news), before the transition as if there wasn't an immediate necessity to feck it off by 2030.

Short-termism by the state and general incestuous business dividing line ensuring public/private contributions and post-political careers, by same money, essentially fecks the world over. These dickheads have the best seats on the Titanic.
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Good posts btw! I have nothing to add, except that it's depressing stuff...
 
Red_toad said:
How does green energy replace the oil used in manufacturing plastics?
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Apparently, it’s another big issue to abandon oil completely. The plastic is cheap to make, and also one of the important reasons for its popularity is durability which is due to its nature, not biodegradable. Now, people have to decide whether they want to use the non-biodegradable material for everything they need? Probably, the most sensible way is to use the non-biodegradable material (durable) in where they are truly needed. For disposable stuffs, people should look for the biodegradable materials which just work ok. I think sometimes, people might go extreme to against certain things no matter what. It’s not the right way as well.
 
All this people that says that these protests are useless, have a week argument. Seems like we are discussing and like here in households and many other places about the topic.

I prefer a million times disruptive protests, as they are the only ones slightly working and having some coverage, than the ones criticizing from a laptop doing nothing

Sometimes its me in them, sometimes i curse them when im affected, but they create awarness and dometimes they are for your own good (NHS or other public services, against political impunity, global warming). If no one would protest, would be even less accountability
 
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city-puma said:
If green energy can make the real breakthrough technically and logistically, oil will be immediately abandoned. How far is it?
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No, it won't be immediately abandoned.
There is too much vested interest from both Big Oil and consumers.

To give you an analogy:
Plant-based diets are universally better for everyone but people are not adopting them in mass. Why?
 
4bars said:
All this people that says that these protests are useless, have a week argument. Seems like we are discussing and like here in households and many other places about the topic.

I prefer a million times disruptive protests, as they are the only ones slightly working and having some coverage, than the ones criticizing from a laptop doing nothing

Sometimes its me in them, sometimes i curse them when im affected, but they create awarness and dometimes they are for your own good (NHS or other public services, against political impunity, global warming). If no one would protest, would be even less accountability
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100% this
 
4bars said:
All this people that says that these protests are useless, have a week argument. Seems like we are discussing and like here in households and many other places about the topic.

I prefer a million times disruptive protests, as they are the only ones slightly working and having some coverage, than the ones criticizing from a laptop doing nothing

Sometimes its me in them, sometimes i curse them when im affected, but they create awarness and dometimes they are for your own good (NHS or other public services, against political impunity, global warming). If no one would protest, would be even less accountability
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How effective are the protests really? Yes we may be discussing them on here - but what’s that going to change?

all I can see is the disruption they are causing - and no real change from it.

i admire their cause - but not their methods.
 
Coxy said:
How effective are the protests really? Yes we may be discussing them on here - but what’s that going to change?

all I can see is the disruption they are causing - and no real change from it.

i admire their cause - but not their methods.
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If you expect a revolution with guillotines and then swap combustion for EV, will never happen. But is something that adds up to the conversation. Also, every protest is a check on the pulse in society. The bigger they get (and they do), politicians are more aware if theu want to continue their grift-election seat, also the private companies

And yes. Check some of the conversations in this thread that arr not slamming the protests but actuall talking about. As much as i am intertesed in the topic i kept learning things. So many other people

It works, not as a revolution but it works. And i hope people does it for every single issue that affect us. And i thank them
 
Coxy said:
How effective are the protests really? Yes we may be discussing them on here - but what’s that going to change?

all I can see is the disruption they are causing - and no real change from it.

i admire their cause - but not their methods.
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That's all you saw for a long time during women's suffrage, during Apartheid South Africa, the Civil Rights movement in the US: causing a stink, making a noise, causing disruption annoying people, really fecking annoying certain people.

Look at the Montgomery bus boycott for one example. That pissed people off, caused disruption, was called counterproductive, resulted in white bus drivers joing white supremacist groups, etc. all before any change happened.
 
Coxy said:
How effective are the protests really? Yes we may be discussing them on here - but what’s that going to change?

all I can see is the disruption they are causing - and no real change from it.

i admire their cause - but not their methods.
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That’s basically what I think. And I even think this type of protest could actually be counterproductive, by turning climate change into a divisive ‘us and them’ issue, essentially playing into the hands of the anti-woke brigade.

The reason why Greta Thunberg’s school strike initiative was so successful was that it aimed to unify people, and as a result it became a mass movement that no politician could afford to ignore. That’s much more effective than a small group of extremists being annoying every week, especially when as individuals they often just come across as ridiculous stereotypes.
 
I was against the Snooker protest as it was paint and damaged the table / caused long delays etc.

I find it very hard to find any fault with a protest that is just some orange tape / confetti.

We absolutely do need to do more about climate change, these protests are causing minimal harm but throwing a huge spotlight on the issue.
 
If they stop someone getting to hospital and there's a tragic outcome as a result, the whole thing has been counter-productive, in my view. They are interfering in the lives of people who aren't in any way the policy decision-makers. It's the wrong target.

Perhaps this is a bit controversial, but I see them as absolutely smug and selfish. This is the issue they've decided to protest about, and they're dragging other citizens along for the ride, without their agreement.
 
Penna said:
If they stop someone getting to hospital and there's a tragic outcome as a result, the whole thing has been counter-productive, in my view. They are interfering in the lives of people who aren't in any way the policy decision-makers. It's the wrong target.

Perhaps this is a bit controversial, but I see them as absolutely smug and selfish. This is the issue they've decided to protest about, and they're dragging other citizens along for the ride, without their agreement.
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How often do demonstrations like these only inconvenience willing participants?

Same with strikes.
 
Penna said:
If they stop someone getting to hospital and there's a tragic outcome as a result, the whole thing has been counter-productive, in my view. They are interfering in the lives of people who aren't in any way the policy decision-makers. It's the wrong target.

Perhaps this is a bit controversial, but I see them as absolutely smug and selfish. This is the issue they've decided to protest about, and they're dragging other citizens along for the ride, without their agreement.
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If that proteat helps push the no oil agenda 1 month sooner it will save thousands of lives. And yes. It sucks when it affects you, and yes, i would like to punch them in the face if it would cause a health issue to someone i love. But on the abstract picture that it eliminates individualism the net benefit is obvious
 
Penna said:
If they stop someone getting to hospital and there's a tragic outcome as a result, the whole thing has been counter-productive, in my view. They are interfering in the lives of people who aren't in any way the policy decision-makers. It's the wrong target.

Perhaps this is a bit controversial, but I see them as absolutely smug and selfish. This is the issue they've decided to protest about, and they're dragging other citizens along for the ride, without their agreement.
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But it is arguably the biggest issue facing humanity. If they were doing this for better pay or some other cause, I'd agree with you.

I do think that government's should feel ashamed that they have forced people to take this kind of direct action by their inaction of the most important issue facing us.
 
georgipep said:
No, it won't be immediately abandoned.
There is too much vested interest from both Big Oil and consumers.

To give you an analogy:
Plant-based diets are universally better for everyone but people are not adopting them in mass. Why?
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Because they're not universally better.

A girl in my work was vegan and was getting quite sick. The remedy was she has now added fish and eggs in to her diet as recommended by the doctor, and now she's better.

Not to mention the cost and difficulty of a vegan diet + how difficult it is to get enough protein if you're training / low carb etc.

Anyway, that's for another thread.
 
georgipep said:
No, it won't be immediately abandoned.
There is too much vested interest from both Big Oil and consumers.

To give you an analogy:
Plant-based diets are universally better for everyone but people are not adopting them in mass. Why?
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The rise in veganism over the last 10 years is huge, why do you think that suddenly lots of big companies are offering plant based alternatives? It's not an overnight change, but it's a big change that's still gathering pace.
 
The Boy said:
The rise in veganism over the last 10 years is huge, why do you think that suddenly lots of big companies are offering plant based alternatives? It's not an overnight change, but it's a big change that's still gathering pace.
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And that is why there is so much investment for the first afforable cell lab meat that gets close enough to the real one. Whoever gets ot will make billions as it will leave no excuse to change. If it tastes de same and costs the same, why torture an animal

And that awereness that brought us to change our diet completely or partially as society had been because protests like this among other things
 
dumbo said:
That's all you saw for a long time during women's suffrage, during Apartheid South Africa, the Civil Rights movement in the US: causing a stink, making a noise, causing disruption annoying people, really fecking annoying certain people.

Look at the Montgomery bus boycott for one example. That pissed people off, caused disruption, was called counterproductive, resulted in white bus drivers joing white supremacist groups, etc. all before any change happened.
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Nobody had any awareness of those issues and there were simple, clear fixes; treat people equally. Let us vote, let us study at the same schools, sit on the same bus etc.

Any cause needs unity, public support, and a specific (realistic) goal. These protests dont have any of that and are doing more harm than good to the wider climate and protest movement as they piss people off and increase support for crackdowns on protesters.
 
The problem is if these tactics work then we are in trouble as every nutcase with a cause is looking on.

For example when we can't get to work because abortion is killing babies and as long as we have abortion then we deserve to suffer the disruption.

Mob rule is a terrible idea.
 
The Boy said:
The rise in veganism over the last 10 years is huge, why do you think that suddenly lots of big companies are offering plant based alternatives? It's not an overnight change, but it's a big change that's still gathering pace.
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And those big companies are responsible for even more destruction of rain forests as they are cleared for palm oil and soya plantations.
 
FireballXL5 said:
And those big companies are responsible for even more destruction of rain forests as they are cleared for palm oil and soya plantations.
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Though it's irrelevant to the thread and the point I was making, it is worth pointing out that 90% of the soya grown is for beef and dairy cattle feed, not your soya latte or tofu burger.
 
georgipep said:
No, it won't be immediately abandoned.
There is too much vested interest from both Big Oil and consumers.

To give you an analogy:
Plant-based diets are universally better for everyone but people are not adopting them in mass. Why?
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The huge rise in veganism and vegetarianism should tell you that's a bad analogy.

Change takes time and it is led by both consumers and companies. Conpanies will make what people will buy, and people will buy vegan food that doesnt taste like shit. The desire for climate change action is there, people are buying more sustainably than ever before, and companies are responding with product lines. The simple issue is that technology is not able to keep up and emerging economies don't give a feck. Gluing yourself to the M25 doesn't address either of those things.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
The problem is if these tactics work then we are in trouble as every nutcase with a cause is looking on.
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there aren't that many causes going around with major traction. there's a difference between industrial action, a strike, that is, a climate protest, as is here, and Larry from Redding wanting a car so he staples himself to the road.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Because meat tastes delicious?
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1. That is subjective.
2. I assume you haven't tried every plant-based product in the world.
3. If meat destroys people's health and the planet, it doesn't matter how it tastes.

And to transpose the analogy back to energy and oil: many people don't like electric vehicles and prefer petrol/diesel ones in the same way "meat tastes delicious".
 
Hughes35 said:
Because they're not universally better.

A girl in my work was vegan and was getting quite sick. The remedy was she has now added fish and eggs in to her diet as recommended by the doctor, and now she's better.

Not to mention the cost and difficulty of a vegan diet + how difficult it is to get enough protein if you're training / low carb etc.

Anyway, that's for another thread.
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By saying "a girl in my was vegan and was getting quite sick" you are saying that every vegan eats the same things. They don't. The same way every non-vegan doesn't eat the same things.

As for cost and difficulty, I suggest you give it a try. You'll find that veggies are cheaper than animal products. Universally.

And if you equate things to a bottom line of nutrition and health needs, plant-based diets are multiple times more efficient. Which makes a lot of sense, considering that animals get all their nutrients from....plants.
 
The Boy said:
The rise in veganism over the last 10 years is huge, why do you think that suddenly lots of big companies are offering plant based alternatives? It's not an overnight change, but it's a big change that's still gathering pace.
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I am not arguing this. Check the response I was responding to.
 
11101 said:
The huge rise in veganism and vegetarianism should tell you that's a bad analogy.

Change takes time and it is led by both consumers and companies. Conpanies will make what people will buy, and people will buy vegan food that doesnt taste like shit. The desire for climate change action is there, people are buying more sustainably than ever before, and companies are responding with product lines. The simple issue is that technology is not able to keep up and emerging economies don't give a feck. Gluing yourself to the M25 doesn't address either of those things.
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Please check the post I was responding to. And then consider my response and yours.
 
georgipep said:
1. That is subjective.
2. I assume you haven't tried every plant-based product in the world.
3. If meat destroys people's health and the planet, it doesn't matter how it tastes.

And to transpose the analogy back to energy and oil: many people don't like electric vehicles and prefer petrol/diesel ones in the same way "meat tastes delicious".
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You do realise that the farming practices behind many crops that are mainstays of vegan/vegetarian diets are also extremely destructive to the planet?

But yes, I obviously agree that a switch away from eating meat is a net positive. And that change is happening. More and more people are choosing to eat less meat. Or stop altogether. It’s similar to the shift away from ICE to electric vehicles. The change is already underway.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You do realise that the farming practices behind many crops that are mainstays of vegan/vegetarian diets are also extremely destructive to the planet?

But yes, I obviously agree that a switch away from eating meat is a net positive. And that change is happening. More and more people are choosing to eat less meat. Or stop altogether. It’s similar to the shift away from ICE to electric vehicles. The change is already underway.
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What's your first point about here? I'm not sure I understand the motivation for highlighting these extremely destructive practices when we recognise it's obviously a net positive?
 
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