A nastier, more aggressive tone seems to be creeping in from some Man Utd supporters in the last week or so. And not just around the ridiculous 'Liverpool fans are Nazis' line. It sounds nervous and shrill.
Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
Liverpool has pissed more money away on mediocre players over the last eight years then United and have had a second place to show for it plus a couple of lost finals.
Well if the goals dry up I'd say that would be because we're no longer creating chances like we currently are rather than being due to not having an out and out goalscorer. I don't know what the conversion stats are for the likes of Mane, Firmino and Lallana (I'm assuming Coutinho's isn't great) but you'd assume that if we keep creating chances then they'll continue to score. Considering our aim is top four I think we've got enough goals in the side. Klopp's been quoted as saying that the system we play is based around the players we have, so I guess he feels like he can get the players we have scoring enough goals to get us where we want to be.
I agree that playing a midfielder at full back isn't ideal but we're not a side looking to compete on multiple fronts. We're not expecting to push for the title and I think that for this season having Milner as left back will be fine for what we're trying to achieve. I don't expect him to be our left back at the start of the 17-18 season though.
We. Are. Worried.
There are plenty of players already at United that Mourinho has more than likely factored into his plans and the system he wants to play, a number of which are still extremely young. I outlined this quite clearly in my previous post yet you've chosen to ignore it and seem to have some strange notion that in order to show he's building for system he should have sold almost every player in the squad and bought an entirely new team. It's utter nonsense.
Liverpool have been notorious over the last decade or so for pissing money away on shite players with little to no progress so I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make here. Also, your initial point was comparing Mourinho to Klopp, so I have compared transfers made only by those two managers. You're scrambling around trying to prove a point that you can't make.
Personally, I think it's a bit of a gamble, but I can't really blame you for having faith in the system.
However, all of the points I made initially were in response to slig and his squad-building claims, and as I struggle to think of any successful side without a recognised striker, I view that as an area with a rather large hole in any squad.
Does anyone else find it a bit odd that all the Liverpool players seem to suddenly be capable of sprinting far more, and for longer than the opposition?
I watched Lallana for years at Southampton, good player, nice technique but physically not a top player. Even when he was their best player he'd usually be withdrawn after 65-70 mins as he didn't have the stamina. Now at the age of 28 he's suddenly capable of high intensity pressing football for 90 minutes... He's not the only one I'm suspicious about either, Milner looks to be the fittest player in the league now getting up and down the pitch from left back. This guy started at the same age as Rooney and prob has played as much football, while Rooney's legs have gone, Milner is doing this naturally?
I think we'd be niave to think our sport is completely clean of performance enhancing drugs based on the revelations in other top level sports.
I don't really see it. Both players already had that mentality pre Liverpool. Lallana played alot that season before he joined them. And 30 years really isn't that old, it might say more about Rooney than about Milner. Look at Giggs. Or look at Ronaldo, a year older than Milner and Rooney. If a player has the right genes, is lucky with injuries and takes care of himself then they can go well beyond 30.
So you are seeing a plan Mourinho has got, what to play and with whom? I see that it needs a start and is very early, but can you explain to me what sense does it make to have only Pogba as a realiable central midfielder and you still need Fellaini to got 11 players o the pitch? Thats only one example. To have Pogba is ok, but to have only Pogba, to have a trow at winning the league,getting something out of the EL? Far to less.
Individual wise its to less from Liverpool, but i see some progess with an aim. Thats what iam missing from Mourinhos first window. I also think that in the begining of Klopps time at Pool, there was missing a lot on the pitch, but from the very beginning you could see what this was about and where they want to go. Thats what iam still missing from Mourinhos United team.
And to go back on topic: Liverpool winning the league? Not this year, not next year, and probably not the year after. BUT: if they progess like this, they will qualify for Europe at some point and then a Klopp team with some squaddeepness is always dangerous, and they maybe will win some trophy, you got 2 cups, one of them should be winnable (?) for a Kloppteam where everybody knows how they want to play.
You're right. United's squad building for the last 3 years has been a mish-mash expensive mess, centred mainly on looking at which players they can throw the most money at (di Maria, Mata, Martial, Pogba and more), with no coherent theme or plan beyond it seems thinking that "big names" will fix it all.
I actually agree with @slig, in the long run just Klopp himself will not be enough, Dortmund have proper footballing men the likes of Zorc etc at the helm ensuring theres a natural progression from one manager to another and a style of play that for the most part remains consistent with the squad thus they didnt have to suffer years of a performance drop off just because everything Klopp built left when he did. That was not the case, but I suspect it would be with us, I dont trust our board and the people running it to make the right descions in the footballing respect. What is just as important for us is getting it right off the field in the way Dortmund have, the philosophy Klopp implements in his time here cant just dissapear when he does, putting in place the correct tools and ingredients to ensure that we can move from one manager to another without the blocks tumbling down will be another key aspect of his reign. I hope its something thats looked at further down the line, of course we are never going to have the scouting network they do, and we wont unearth gems anywhere near as consistently as they do but putting in place a semblance of a working system and machine that continues regardless of the events occuring around it will be a hallmark of the legacy Klopp could ultimately leave here. In essence we need to become as well run as them and the likes of Bayern, Juve etc and nobody here at this club apart from Klopp is capable of creating that despite that being FSG's very philosophy when they came in.
On the playing side I dont think people have watched us too closely, I mean yes we have pressed like a Klopp team and against Hull we actually created a very good counter press goa,l and once we regularly do that I think Klopp will be happy but we have other ways to score. Mane has given us another dimension in attack and its made it easier for us to break down park the bus teams, we are as a fluid and comfortable in possesion as I've seen us for years. The best way to play us at this current moment in time is to try and press us with quick technical players and pace on the wings both of which United are capable of doing, if you have the fitness to last 90mins you can more than score a couple, our major weakness is still balls in the box and set-pieces we'll see if that improves although weve been shit with it regardless of play style and manager for years.
On the whole theres still a long long way to go both in terms of the short-term and long-term.
On the playing side I dont think people have watched us too closely, I mean yes we have pressed like a Klopp team and against Hull we actually created a very good counter press goa,l and once we regularly do that I think Klopp will be happy but we have other ways to score. Mane has given us another dimension in attack and its made it easier for us to break down park the bus teams, we are as a fluid and comfortable in possesion as I've seen us for years. The best way to play us at this current moment in time is to try and press us with quick technical players and pace on the wings both of which United are capable of doing, if you have the fitness to last 90mins you can more than score a couple, our major weakness is still balls in the box and set-pieces we'll see if that improves although weve been shit with it regardless of play style and manager for years.
On the whole theres still a long long way to go both in terms of the short-term and long-term.
Are you being deliberately thick?
We're short of a right-back, but our defence is looking pretty decent, moreso now with the addition of Bailly. Herrera has been great so far this season, and seems to be first choice alongside Pogba. Ignoring his existence doesn't prove a point. Fellaini has also performed quite well, and we still have Carrick, Schneiderlin, and even Blind and Schweinsteiger as options in midfield. To say we have just one reliable central midfielder just shows you either haven't a fecking clue, or are being deliberately obtuse. Our attacking options now include Mata, Mkhitaryan, Martial, Rashford, Zlatan, Lingard, Memphis, Young, and Rooney, and overall, there's a good blend of youth and experience throughout the squad.
The aims of Mourinho's first window are very easy to identify if you understand anything about football and haven't got a huge agenda. We were short of a decent central defender, so we bought a talented, young, central defender that was ready to slot into the first team. We were struggling to create chances and score goals last season, so we've brought in one of the world's brightest midfield prospects, known for his creative and attacking abilities, one of the best performing attacking players from the Bundesliga, and one of Europe's top scoring strikers.
You've got a clear and understandable affection for Klopp, but your reasoning in this is plain illogical.
The problem isn't overspending, it's overspending on the right player. We did it right with Martial, but have failed on most others, that's where a coherent vision of continuity in regards to a system and a club philosophy comes in.
To compare Benitez and Rodgers as having similar models is about as inaccurate as you could possibly get. At their peak, Benitez cultivated a talented solid, hard working side that could take the lead in the 15th minute and pretty much secure the points. Rodgers' teams were far more open but aggressive in terms of how they attacked but were the polar opposite to Rafa's sides in the way the team was set up defensively.
But yeah, they just ran around...
As for Klopp, if his unspectacular signings continue to play pretty spectacular football at times and score goals for fun then that's ok. Liverpool have spent too long trying to use a chequebook to resolve their shortcomings - Klopp is being wonderfully unspectacular in his trading. Until it looks like failing I'll go with it.
Both Rodger and Benitez' sides outran their opponents to the point it was their defining characteristic. Only difference was Rodgers had Sturridge, Rafa had Riera and ngog. Can never forget 'Pool hustling Arsenal off the park in 13-14, or 08-09 doing the same to Utd. Possessing players who can do that is a staple of the club.
Aside from the fact that his whole argument started as Mourinho's squad building at United, and somewhat randomly shifted to general squad building over the last few years, you've picked a really poor list of players there.
Di Maria was a big name and flopped, but Mata's been a good signing and Pogba's one of the brightest prospects in world football. Singling either of those two out as if they're examples of bad business is very strange, regardless of their fees (which is largely irrelevant given United's spending power), and then there's Martial who had a fantastic season for a largely underwhelming side.
As for "big names" being relied upon to fix things, I'd hardly include Martial, Shaw, Bailly, Herrera, Blind, Rojo, Fellaini, Darmian and Schneiderlin amongst a list of "big name" signings. Falcao was an unsuccessful loan deal, and Schweinsteiger was a cheap but uninspiring gamble for an experienced player. Zlatan looks a good signing and I've no reason to believe that Mkhi won't turn out the same.
Moyes was let go because of results and transfer inactivity, and van Gaal for results, style of play, and seemingly having little clue what he was actually working towards. It's no wonder that United's squad building has been a mish-mash of signings of late, because we've had 3 different managers with 3 completely different views of what to do with the team. Mourinho's come in and plugged some gaps and rectified a problem that plagued us last season.
You've made many bizarre posts Glaston, but agreeing with slig in this instance has to be up there amongst the more bizarre.
Rafa also had Alonso, Mascherano, Torres, Gerrard and Carragher in his best side. Ngog is an odd player to use as your example as if he was the defining player of his tenure.
If you want to be glib enough to characterise Rafa's sides as running around a lot as the chief characteristic then fair enough. He remains the sole reason Jose failed to win a CL at Chelsea following two incredibly well-planned semi-finals in three seasons that restricted Chelsea to zero shots on target in 05 and pretty much outplayed in 07. Defensive discipline and excellent shape defined those moments not running around. If it was that easy then I'm sure it would be easy to replicate.
Interesting comment, but who exactly would be interested in most of Liverpool's players. They are not dross, but I doubt very much whether the likes of Barca, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich are knocking at the door for their players when you have the likes of KDB and Hazard around. There may be players who leave for money, e.g. Sterling type players, but it is not like they have world class players. Same could be said for most of the top 6 or 7 sides in the premier league.
Also, I still fail to see this mass impact of Klopp. Is the Liverpool of today, better than the Liverpool that finished second in the league a few years ago. Not doubting Klopp's ability, but just as I think there is a load of OTT comments about Jose, it seems Klopp gets way too much credit. The Swansea games as an example, was hardly impressive, a controlled second half, but not a lot to shout about, but it was interpreted as some master stroke by Klopp.
As for the game at Anfield, we have seen for many years that the team that plays best on the day, or who goes into the game in form, does not necessarily win. A poor player or ref decision can turn a game on its head. Though, not overly confident, I certainly am not dreading United facing the current Liverpool side.
Was it? We were awful the first half, some strong words at half time and we were much better after the break. Nothing much else I don't think.
I don't think as a team we are any better than Rodgers second in the league one - but Suarez was a massive part of that and pretty much every player played close to his best all season.
Klopp has stamped his mark on the squad in the last summer window with the number of players sold, some with buy back clauses - making future windows easier.
For that reason the future under him I think is bright.
@By the way - how's the weather in Miami (we went there on honeymoon, and have been back to Florida countless times since).....assuming you are there of course?
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Probably not but it's a lot better than the side he took over last season, which was a shadow of the 13/14 season.
There are whispers that PSG are interested in Coutinho but I don't think he'll leave to go there. If he has a good season (similar to Hazard's in 14-15) then maybe Barcelona or Madrid might come knocking but he's in a good place right now. He's getting into the Brazil team and showing some really good form at club level, playing for a manager that allows him to express himself on the pitch.
I don't think anyone was saying that the Swansea game was some kind of brilliant tactical turn around by Klopp. He basically had a go at the players at half time and told them to pull their finger out, which they did. Sometimes that's all it takes.
I agreed about the game next week. I don't think it'll be a hammering either way and it'll probably be decided by one goal. They're rarely draws so I think there will be a winner but neither side should go into the game afraid of the other.
Weather is wonderful. Had to stay in Las Vegas a few days due to the hurricane. Miami wasn't really hit, but always better to listen to the advice of authorities on these issues. I live on South Beach so have the best and worst of the US.
Thankfully we get every United game on the box so don't miss any games. It is only if you go to expat pubs that you get a good atmosphere for games like Liverpool/United. The locals don't quite have the passion and look at you a bit strange if you dare to start a chant.
Rodgers had a peak uninhibited Sturridge who was world class that season alongside a bang in form out of this world Suarez. Coutinho picking through balls from deep for Sturridge to run on to, Sterling in the no10 role using his pace and dribbling ability to beat defenders combined with Gerrard using his passing ability usually left Suarez and Sturridge one on one with there oppononent which is exactly where they wanted to be.
One of Rodgers key core attacking principles was 1v1 ability and he put in place a system to maximise the strength of the individuals in it. The problem was the lack of squad depth, and whilst SAS were astounding for the majority of the season, they burned out a little in the final run of games, Sterling was our best player in our winning streak, and he didnt play regularly till december. Our bench was Aspas Alberto Moses in terms of attacking depth.
The problem for Rodgers is he flip flopped a lot on how he wanted to play, he trained using the periodisation method designed to get you to peak in the later stages of the season, worked in theory without European football but when you had CL football aswell as him shifting his style of play its easy to see why it all collapsed. He went away from what was so successful the previous season and decided he wanted a target man despite having no clue how to utilise one, Pace movement and 1v1 ability those are the things he values as his key attacking principles. The result of his transfer policy and continued flip flopping of styles was a mis match of players with no clue how to play. The defence was a shambles, you had Skrtel consistently dropping deep no matter what, and Sakho pushing up trying to play a high line and Johnson barely resembling a football player. Theres a good coach in there but he needs to iron out his flaws and use a system and believe in it.
Went on a rodgers tangent there, but oh well. Benitez's sides were much much different I can attempt to outline the differences if you would like?
Not sure I agree with the idea that there are going be clubs queueing up for Liverpool's players at this current moment in time. There may be interest if anyone kicks on and has an exceptional season, like Suarez did in 13/14, but at the moment I'd imagine they're all fairly happy where they are.
'Pool at the peak of their mediocrity never get battered by the better teams, ever (bar the very rare exception). As they have always had a plethora of players who run like hounds for 90 minutes, where most an only last at full throttle for 60.
While Rodgers and Rafa differed big time on how to play the game, both opted to pack the team full of individuals who would not give the opponent a second's respite. Rafa had Mascherano, Alonso, Kuyt and Gerrard. Rodgers could call upon Henderson, Allen, Can, Lucas and Milner as players fitting the mould of high intensity for 90 minutes.
From the perspective of an opposition fan I always see Anfield as the least favourble ground in the league to play a steady passing game, 'Pool always seem to have an extra player or 2,and the pitch looking so cramped only compounds that. The only side in recent years who have gone to Anfield and yanked your lot around like a dog on a leash was Real Madrid - and no domestic side can match similar talent as they had.
So, Klopp is following on what Rodgers did before it all went wrong: Mobile attacking unit, hustle in the midfield, lightning fast passing game and speed across the ground. Even lightweight options like Lallana can chug all game long.
The quality of managers in the league means Klopp no matter how good he is/was at dortmund, i dont think he will win the league. He may win the f.a. cup or the league cup or even europa league but the prem league will be 2 steps too far. I think he may not even get them in top 4 this year. He might also be gone if one of the big clubs come calling.
Coutinho is quality and wouldn't look out of place in any top team across Europe. Sturridge equally so. That said, it's not whether the players that leave need to be world class, just influential for Liverpool. Sterling's an example of this. I'm as red as most on here but if you can't see the Klopp impact, your blinded by the rivalry. Yep, games like this are on the day but I'd rather come in it with a victory than a draw against the bottom club. They look like a team with an identity and we are still understandable trying to find ours...
Okay mate, stayed on Collins Avenue a few times over the years.
I don't think you can say that "running a lot" was the defining characteristic of Benitez's reign though.
Benitez's Liverpool were defensively sound, difficult to break down, utilised technical players in midfield to keep the ball, and were very clinical in the final third. Benitez's downfall was trying to replace Alonso with the always-injured Aquilani, and having no Plan B for when Torres was injured. That and descending into madness following the 08/09 season.
Rodgers, I feel, completely likes a football identity and has little idea of how to implement anything in a team. He relied heavily on individual brilliance and early goals during his one good season at Anfield, and at their best, his Liverpool side were essentially a knock off 2010-12 Dortmund. It's no coincidence that Suarez's departure and his inability to adapt accordingly cost him his job.
Klopp's style is similar to 13/14 Liverpool, but relies less heavily on 1v1 situations and individual brilliance.
Yes, the key difference is Benitez preferred specialists whereas Rodgers liked to have multi-functional players. But the essence of your post is correct, stripping away tactics, quality of player, formations, and the differences between how they utilised there " workhorses" so to speak we have in general pressed a lot. Although there are many key differences between the managers. Anyways im looking forward to the game could go either way.
Yeah would agree with this, I feel like poster is making it all sound a bit basic? But in essence youve summed the difference between rodgers and Klopp okayish i guess.
I think Klopp's Dortmund relied a lot on the individual feats of Lewandowski, which is why it sort of went to shit when he left, but it's something he's trying to rectify at Liverpool. Whereas Rodgers' team struggled immensely without an early goal, I think Klopp's more able to grind out results, and from what I've seen so far, seems less prone to a collapse when conceding than Rodgers' Liverpool. However, I do think there are some defensive frailties that still need addressing.
I said to my Liverpool supporting mate at the start of the season that I thought they could win the title this season. He said "no chance".
Therefore, I will have the last laugh even if Liverpool do win the title
Therefore, I will have the last laugh even if Liverpool do win the title
Not blinded by rivalry at all, good on you if you have seen an impact. He came in when Liverpool lost focus and went backward. In the latter part of last season they had a topsy turvy 6 months under Klopp which wasn't impressive. This season they have got good results against Arsenal, and Chelsea. But Swansea, Burnley were same as last year. Compare that to the impact of say Poch at Spurs and you see more impact.
As you quite rightly pointed out a 39 year old 3rd choice keeper and a 30 year old back up CB and yes he has converted a midfielder to a left back.
Please remind me who is your current right back and how old is your 1st choice striker?
I'm not happy with our current right-back, as I've pointed out multiple times in this thread, and Ibra was brought in to provide some much needed experience to alleviate the pressure on Martial and Rashford.
I was also responding to a post heavily praising Klopp's squadbuilding, which happens to include the 39 year old keeper signed as 3rd choice, the 30 year old CB signed as backup, and the conversion of a midfielder to a LB in lieu of signing a proper one.
Yeah, we do still suffer defensively a lot, we win less then 50% of aerial balls in to the box and we've conceded from the oppositions first shot on target an alarming number of times. Its why Mignolet has one of the worst save percentages in the league. I think he has learned a few things from his time at Dortmund, would be a dissapointment if he hadnt, we look much more capable of breaking park the bus teams down, although that is in large part thanks to the attributes Mane brings to the side. Defensively from open play we concede very few chances, we are just atrociously bad at defending crosses and set play situations, remains to be seen if and how Klopp addresses that. Still a lot of variables in the season ahead weather in our benefit ot not.
The reason being we havent overhauled our squad much, Klopp came in believing that the players he had at his disposal werent as bad as portrayed, and that through building there confidence, training time and key additions in several areas, he could build and implement his style around the players he had at his disposal. He didnt have much training time in his first 6 months although you could begin to see little bits of what he wanted to do.
Our season relies/relied heavily on Karius, Matip, Wijnaldum and Mane hitting the ground running, if they turn/turned out to be utter horseshit we would have been fecked as theyre the spine of the team and the key ingredients Klopp felt he needed to take the side up another level. For the most part theyve all done really well thus far barring Karius whos just come back from injury.
They point essentially being he built around what he had and he built on it. He put those players into a system that most had already experienced some form of, and he added players he felt had the requiste attributes to complete his system and now his job is to continue to motivate these players and trust that his system will maximise the abilities of each player in it, so that the collective is stronger than the individual. The problem i can see so far is that we are lacking depth in key areas, in particular we have nobody to replicate what Mane does, and if one of Lallana/Wijnaldum gets injured pushing Hendo up the field and Can in the 6 means we would lose fluidity. Thats why I'd rather Coutinho dropped in to MF in that scenario.
I envisage our key targets next summer being Dahoud, Pulisic and someone to replicate what Mane does.
About Spurs they play an energetic pressing game, but they dont play that way all the time, its why I think they will drop points at some stage, they are defensively sound incredibly well balanced and structured but they rely heavily on key players and the attributes they bring, there squad is deep and for the most part I think they recruited well. Will they challenge? Not sure ,I think they will definitely be in the top four, weather they challenge will be dependent upon them having the right amount of luck going forwards. There squad and system is good and I dont see them falling away in the near future. I just think they will always struggle to actually clinch the title.
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They are getting a bit carried away.
The first part of the sentence is at least debatable.
Thanks for this reminder.
Mourinho at United is beautiful. What happened to longevity ?