Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch

Kraftwerker said:
Quite the rant. My post was a little tongue-in-cheek highlighting that a fan base blighted by accusations of racism in recent years
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Indeed, the fanbase has been blighted by accusations of racism. This collective consciousness that exists amongst all Liverpool fans that make up a fanbase have been collectively racist time and time again. They're all doing it together, like some baying, growling Nuremberg rally.

In no way are any of these incidents isolated to individual knobs. To narrow it down to one or two people would let off all the other acquiescent racists amongst the collective fanbase

The bloody racist fanbase. Shocking.
 
Kraftwerker said:
Please tell me more about how trying to offend a fanbase based on race isn't racist.

Hey, you spend your hard earned weekend doing whatever you want. If that's posting cheap offensive comments on a Man United website then so be it. Don't let me stop you living the dream.
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Honestly, you are making a fool of yourself. There was some banter aimed at Liverpool:
Green_Red said:
Just jokes man... you can understand why we'd be sceptical of Liverpools chances, if I had £10 for every year a liverpool supporter told me this was their year Id have exactly £260. To put that in context for a scouser thats practically 2 weeks dole!!! Unbelievable Jeff!
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Followed by a decent comeback aimed back at United, mirroring the structure of the original post:
ObelOitment Fungentula said:
If I had £10 for everyone on this forum who thought Man United were going to win the title this season I'd have exactly £8,130. To put that in context for the average United supporting Cafite that's practically 1700 portions of phat kaphrao.
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And then you ride in on your high horse, accusing someone of racism, because he made a connection between an asian dish and United, drawing on the fact that United does have a large fanbase in Asia. You are actually doing those a disservice, that speak out against real racism in football, with petty arguments like this.
 
simi said:
Honestly, you are making a fool of yourself. There was some banter aimed at Liverpool:


Followed by a decent comeback aimed back at United, mirroring the structure of the original post:


And then you ride in on your high horse, accusing someone of racism, because he made a connection between an asian dish and United, drawing on the fact that United does have a large fanbase in Asia. You are actually doing those a disservice, that speak out against real racism in football, with petty arguments like this.
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Thank you, and to the other posters that took issue with his ridiculous comments while i was away.
 
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PickledRed said:
Indeed, the fanbase has been blighted by accusations of racism. This collective consciousness that exists amongst all Liverpool fans that make up a fanbase have been collectively racist time and time again. They're all doing it together, like some baying, growling Nuremberg rally.

In no way are any of these incidents isolated to individual knobs. To narrow it down to one or two people would let off all the other acquiescent racists amongst the collective fanbase

The bloody racist fanbase. Shocking.
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Despite the smarmy sarcasm in your reply, you know as well as I do how ugly it got for a while at Liverpool. And dissenting voices were very much the minority.

It wasn't the fans fault entirely, they merely looked to their leader for cues on how to behave, and instead of strong respectable leadership found a braying backwards fool.

simi said:
Honestly, you are making a fool of yourself. There was some banter aimed at Liverpool:


Followed by a decent comeback aimed back at United, mirroring the structure of the original post:


And then you ride in on your high horse, accusing someone of racism, because he made a connection between an asian dish and United, drawing on the fact that United does have a large fanbase in Asia. You are actually doing those a disservice, that speak out against real racism in football, with petty arguments like this.
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Ok, if you think trying to offend an entire fanbase based on race isn't racism, then fine.

There are plenty of decent Asian fans on here, not just supporting United. Why should they have their racial background used as a derogatory reference for United fans?

But if you don't think people should be called out on comments like that, that's your prerogative. We'll agree to disagree.
 
johnny boy said:
You are right we have had some tough away games, i disagree we have been lucky. To be honest I thought we were unlucky at Tottenham not to get the 3 points.
Do you mean any games in particular?
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Well I think we can all agree that Swansea would've equalised late on 95 times out of 100 but van der Hoorn bottled his chance. I also think you were fortunate to come up against Arsenal with very poor centrebacks and when they were really at a low point - I don't think any team would go to the Emirates and score 4 at present.

'Lucky' was perhaps the wrong word and definitely wasn't meant to belittle your impressive start to the season, but I just feel that if the season was replayed again, things may be a little different. I do suppose you could say that for every team though.
 
IgnorantLobster said:
Well I think we can all agree that Swansea would've equalised late on 95 times out of 100 but van der Hoorn bottled his chance. I also think you were fortunate to come up against Arsenal with very poor centrebacks and when they were really at a low point - I don't think any team would go to the Emirates and score 4 at present.

'Lucky' was perhaps the wrong word and definitely wasn't meant to belittle your impressive start to the season, but I just feel that if the season was replayed again, things may be a little different. I do suppose you could say that for every team though.
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I understand your points - we didn't play well at Swansea, should probably have been further behind than 1-0 and yes obviously they should have equalised late on. I suppose it depends on context, we did grind out a win and you could argue when other teams do it's said they won without being at their best. I suppose it depends how you look at it.

I also see what you mean about Arsenal, yes they were weaker at the back, but one of those 'weaknesses' scored their third goal plus we had Moreno, Mignolet playing and Klavan on debut. Matip was injured, so it wasn't our strongest team either.
There is always an element of playing teams at the right time - but I think given our early season difficult fixture list we have done pretty well.
Nobody would have had West Ham in the bottom 3 and so far it's been a good time to play them - you never know by the time Liverpool do they will probably be a lot stronger. Either way it's just how the fixtures work out. I don't think at the start of the season anyone would have wanted Arsenal, Chelsea, Tottenham & Leicester in their first 5 games which is what we had.
 
Kraftwerker said:
There are plenty of decent Asian fans on here, not just supporting United. Why should they have their racial background used as a derogatory reference for United fans?

But if you don't think people should be called out on comments like that, that's your prerogative. We'll agree to disagree.
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You're 100% right mate. The comment that guy made about Asian United fans was stupid and the people who quoted him and laughed at it are even more pathetic. I'm sure the caf users from Asia don't want to be coming on here to see themselves get racially profiled in a Klopp thread by some idiot looking for a few cheap pops on a rival's club forum.
 
Tom Van Persie said:
You're 100% right mate. The comment that guy made about Asian United fans was stupid and the people who quoted him and laughed at it are even more pathetic. I'm sure the caf users from Asia don't want to be coming on here to see themselves get racially profiled in a Klopp thread by some idiot looking for a few cheap pops on a rival's club forum.
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No doubt since you feel that strongly about it your next post will condemn the Utd fan for his stereotyping of scousers and the dole?

And you realise that keeping to those standards will mean posters being careful about what they say about potatoes (boiled, baked, fried, roasted, chips, wedges or crisps) when having a bit of banter on here so as not to offend the Irish.

Oh I forgot curly fries - I'm hungry now.
 
Finn MacCool said:
No doubt since you feel that strongly about it your next post will condemn the Utd fan for his stereotyping of scousers and the dole?

And you realise that keeping to those standards will mean posters being careful about what they say about potatoes (boiled, baked, fried, roasted, chips, wedges or crisps) when having a bit of banter on here so as not to offend the Irish.

Oh I forgot curly fries - I'm hungry now.
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Yeah but that's just banter though isn't it ? Not their fault we can't take a joke & have lost our sense of humour.
 
IgnorantLobster said:
Well I think we can all agree that Swansea would've equalised late on 95 times out of 100 but van der Hoorn bottled his chance. I also think you were fortunate to come up against Arsenal with very poor centrebacks and when they were really at a low point - I don't think any team would go to the Emirates and score 4 at present.

'Lucky' was perhaps the wrong word and definitely wasn't meant to belittle your impressive start to the season, but I just feel that if the season was replayed again, things may be a little different. I do suppose you could say that for every team though.
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Can't we class Arsenal as being lucky then with their last minute penalty at home to Southampton ? Or their late controversial winner at Burnley ? I bet if Mourinho could start the City match again things would pan out different. Or were City simply 'lucky' playing you just at the right time ? You could go through every single match & highlight how & if things could have been different, but if doesn't count in the real world.
 
redman5 said:
Can't we class Arsenal as being lucky then with their last minute penalty at home to Southampton ? Or their late controversial winner at Burnley ? I bet if Mourinho could start the City match again things would pan out different. Or were City simply 'lucky' playing you just at the right time ? You could go through every single match & highlight how & if things could have been different, but if doesn't count in the real world.
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I don't get what you're trying to say.

I would indeed say Arsenal scoring an 'offside handball' is lucky, wouldn't you?

It comes back around pretty quickly though.
 
To win the Pl, Liverpool has to have several years of the finest development. So for now: No. If they want in the future, htey have to prosper in such a great amount..i dont see it yet.
 
Finn MacCool said:
No doubt since you feel that strongly about it your next post will condemn the Utd fan for his stereotyping of scousers and the dole?

And you realise that keeping to those standards will mean posters being careful about what they say about potatoes (boiled, baked, fried, roasted, chips, wedges or crisps) when having a bit of banter on here so as not to offend the Irish.

Oh I forgot curly fries - I'm hungry now.
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Add a few chicken 'dippers' in there too, as apparently that's what we are - but I guess that is just banter too.
 
IgnorantLobster said:
I don't get what you're trying to say.

I would indeed say Arsenal scoring an 'offside handball' is lucky, wouldn't you?

It comes back around pretty quickly though.
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I think the point is every team at some stage has luck on their side - I don't think we have been overall lucky so far. And obviously where fixtures are concerned there are good and bad times to play any team.
 
Kraftwerker said:
Despite the smarmy sarcasm in your reply, you know as well as I do how ugly it got for a while at Liverpool. And dissenting voices were very much the minority.
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What minority? Are you talking about Suarez and Evra? If so, the debate / argument between fans wasn't about racism and whether racism is ok or not; it was about whether Suarez actually said what he was accused of and with what intent. Backing Suarez, rightly or wrongly, wasn't to condone racism it was backing a side of the dispute of who was telling the truth.

I've never understood why this was turned into an an issue about fans condoning racism - nothing of the sort. And I kind of think both sides know this.
 
bio202 said:
The BS on here from Utd fans has got me chuckling.

"They won't keep the intensity up!"
Bvb did it season after season with cl football to boot.

"They will lose to teams they should beat!"
So will every team in the division. Always has been upsets and that's what makes this league so good.

"Their players are more shit than ours!"
Yup, agree that on paper they are but your problem is they're not a team. They're a collection of individuals. Fellini still gets a game FFS even after spending £300 mil after his arrival.
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- Klopp winning 2 league titles at Dortmund doesn't mean it's definitely going to work for him at Liverpool. ,aye you'll keep it up all season as he didn't manage to get you into Europe last season. But he won't. No guarantees around and winning the league is not easy. Not "BS".

- Yes it's what makes this league good. Heck it makes most leagues good. It also turns title mere challengers and mere challengers into 4th place finishers, or worse. Another thing that could well happen to Liverpool. Not "BS".

- There are teams who have better than players than you in the league. City and United to name two. And while you've started the season well, there's not much between the teams at the moment and it's not out of the question for us/ Chelsea/whoever to gel better as the season goes on, nor for individual quality to make a big difference. Again, quite clearly not "BS".

Maybe you should read your own post and have another chuckle. You deserve it.
 
PickledRed said:
What minority? Are you talking about Suarez and Evra? If so, the debate / argument between fans wasn't about racism and whether racism is ok or not; it was about whether Suarez actually said what he was accused of and with what intent. Backing Suarez, rightly or wrongly, wasn't to condone racism it was backing a side of the dispute of who was telling the truth.

I've never understood why this was turned into an an issue about fans condoning racism - nothing of the sort. And I kind of think both sides know this.
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You do realise that during that whole debacle that Suarez and teammates at the time all acknowledged that he'd said it, it was just that Suarez was contesting that it wasn't actually racist?

Large swathes of Liverpool fans completely ignored this fact and were instead coming up with all sorts of nonsense about a conspiracy theory, Evra goading him into something, the ethnicity of Suarez's grandfather, and it being a term of endearment. The thing got so stupid that your own manager turned out, alongside his players, in t-shirts displaying their support for a chap who'd acknowledged that he'd said something that anyone with half a brain would recognise as racist.
 
Alex99 said:
You do realise that during that whole debacle that Suarez and teammates at the time all acknowledged that he'd said it, it was just that Suarez was contesting that it wasn't actually racist?

Large swathes of Liverpool fans completely ignored this fact and were instead coming up with all sorts of nonsense about a conspiracy theory, Evra goading him into something, the ethnicity of Suarez's grandfather, and it being a term of endearment. The thing got so stupid that your own manager turned out, alongside his players, in t-shirts displaying their support for a chap who'd acknowledged that he'd said something that anyone with half a brain would recognise as racist.
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Fab. So, like me, you agree it was about fans arguing about intent rather than notions of condoning racism.

Glad we are in agreement.
 
Cristiano Lell said:
That one's pretty funny tbf.

Ironically, it also includes a line which, if a Liverpool fan had posted it on here, @Kraftwerker had deemed racist lol
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It was very funny. One of the funniest football songs I've heard. Very offensive to people from Korea & Liverpool of course, but thank god it doesn't include a line about Asian United fans eating noodles. That would be taking it a step too far.
 
PickledRed said:
Fab. So, like me, you agree it was about fans arguing about intent rather than notions of condoning racism.

Glad we are in agreement.
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And you don't see how it can be seen as a fanbase-wide problem when large swathes of supporters of one team vehemently argued that something clearly racist, wasn't racist? And in fact continued to do so after the player in question was charged with such an offence?
 
Alex99 said:
And you don't see how it can be seen as a fanbase-wide problem when large swathes of supporters of one team vehemently argued that something clearly racist, wasn't racist? And in fact continued to do so after the player in question was charged with such an offence?
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At what point did I defend anything? I was merely making a point about the true nature of the 'fan campaign' which was never overtly about defending racism. Fans were not being racist; the fanbase weren't being collectively racist. It became an argument about intent.

In truth, beneath the bluster, it was a campaign steeped in tribalism, misguided or otherwise.
 
PickledRed said:
What minority? Are you talking about Suarez and Evra? If so, the debate / argument between fans wasn't about racism and whether racism is ok or not; it was about whether Suarez actually said what he was accused of and with what intent. Backing Suarez, rightly or wrongly, wasn't to condone racism it was backing a side of the dispute of who was telling the truth.

I've never understood why this was turned into an an issue about fans condoning racism - nothing of the sort. And I kind of think both sides know this.
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Not condoning racism but being apologists for behaviour that was either overtly racist or could be very easily taken as so. As well some pretty horrific victim blaming and a campaign to smear the name of someone reporting what they felt to be racist abuse.

None of these things make Liverpool fans racist but there's no doubt that a cloud of racism enveloped the club, and the fans due to their blind following and support of those orchestrating this behaviour were tarred by association. And of course there were quite a few reported incidents of actual racist behaviour by the fans in the ground and on social media.

Hence my comment that a fanbase so recently embroiled in a racism dispute should probably avoid saying racist things. Which you seem to have taken umbrage with.
 
redman5 said:
It was very funny. One of the funniest football songs I've heard. Very offensive to people from Korea & Liverpool of course, but thank god it doesn't include a line about Asian United fans eating noodles. That would be taking it a step too far.
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Given how much you embarrassed yourself during your club's racism episode, even gaining a charming new username for a while, probably best you don't try to talk about taking things a step too far. :)
 
amolbhatia50k said:
- Klopp winning 2 league titles at Dortmund doesn't mean it's definitely going to work for him at Liverpool. ,aye you'll keep it up all season as he didn't manage to get you into Europe last season. But he won't. No guarantees around and winning the league is not easy. Not "BS".

- Yes it's what makes this league good. Heck it makes most leagues good. It also turns title mere challengers and mere challengers into 4th place finishers, or worse. Another thing that could well happen to Liverpool. Not "BS".

- There are teams who have better than players than you in the league. City and United to name two. And while you've started the season well, there's not much between the teams at the moment and it's not out of the question for us/ Chelsea/whoever to gel better as the season goes on, nor for individual quality to make a big difference. Again, quite clearly not "BS".

Maybe you should read your own post and have another chuckle. You deserve it.
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Never said it would work for Klopp. I said bvb kept the high pressing game going also while playing cl footy. So therefore it's plausible the lfc can keep it up.

The rest of your post is just repeating my post and to be honest I don't think it deserves your sarcasm. If fact I'm unsure what the hell you're on about and why you have responded.

Don't misquote me either. The BS comment was referring to some of the reasons pool/klopp can't/won't achieve a given target. i.e keeping the intensity up and nothing to do with how hard it is to win the league.

On top of that you have only quoted half my post so I assume you agree with my other points.

*shakes head and wonders WTF*
 
bio202 said:
Never said it would work for Klopp. I said bvb kept the high pressing game going also while playing cl footy. So therefore it's plausible the lfc can keep it up.

The rest of your post is just repeating my post and to be honest I don't think it deserves your sarcasm. If fact I'm unsure what the hell you're on about and why you have responded.

Don't misquote me either. The BS comment was referring to some of the reasons pool/klopp can't/won't achieve a given target. i.e keeping the intensity up and nothing to do with how hard it is to win the league.

On top of that you have only quoted half my post so I assume you agree with my other points.

*shakes head and wonders WTF*
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Shame you didn't do that after you typed out that post of yours.

Yes, it's plausible for the opposite of those claims to happen. But it's also plausible for most of them to happen. Which is the why the ones I've highlighted are hardly "BS". There's a lot of dross in this thread. Had you quoted that, your post might come across as coherent. Opposing views/predictions aren't inherently rubbish because you disagree with them or go against your club.
 
PickledRed said:
At what point did I defend anything? I was merely making a point about the true nature of the 'fan campaign' which was never overtly about defending racism. Fans were not being racist; the fanbase weren't being collectively racist. It became an argument about intent.

In truth, beneath the bluster, it was a campaign steeped in tribalism, misguided or otherwise.
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And you don't see how ignoring the obvious problem because of a football rivalry maybe makes the fan base at least somewhat complicit?
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Shame you didn't do that after you typed out that post of yours.

Yes, it's plausible for the opposite of those claims to happen. But it's also plausible for most of them to happen. Which is the why the ones I've highlighted are hardly "BS". There's a lot of dross in this thread. Had you quoted that, your post might come across as coherent. Opposing views/predictions aren't inherently rubbish because you disagree with them or go against your club.
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So posters saying pool got lucky when playing arsenal, spurs and Chelsea is not BS?

You're entitled to your opinions as I are mine and mine is that that's bs.
 
bio202 said:
So posters saying pool got lucky when playing arsenal, spurs and Chelsea is not BS?

You're entitled to your opinions as I are mine and mine is that that's bs.
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Hard time reading? Is that the one I quoted?
 
Kraftwerker said:
Hence my comment that a fanbase so recently embroiled in a racism dispute should probably avoid saying racist things. Which you seem to have taken umbrage with.
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If it would actually be harmful, then probably, although the past of the club should never be relevant when it comes to racism. Racism as it is defined by most people (actual abuse of people based on racial differences) is unacceptable no matter what.

However, this "noodle debate" is one of the biggest cases of making a mountain out of a mole hill I have ever seen on here. That tongue in cheek post which started this debate was at the worst a mild case of stereotyping. That is in no way more offensive as when over here it is implied that all Bayern supporter wear leather pants and enjoy Sauerkraut or that the majority of Dortmund supporter come to the stadium straight from the coal mines and help themselves to a healthy portion of Bigos after it.

The only people who could feel offended in this whole saga are victims of "real" racism, people who suffer every day because they are born with a slightly different skin color. Screaming racism at everything close to stereotyping does not help anybody, if anything, it trivialises the whole topic.

And here I thought we Germans were the kings of political correctness...
 
Sphaero said:
If it would actually be harmful, then probably, although the past of the club should never be relevant when it comes to racism. Racism as it is defined by most people (actual abuse of people based on racial differences) is unacceptable no matter what.

However, this "noodle debate" is one of the biggest cases of making a mountain out of a mole hill I have ever seen on here. That tongue in cheek post which started this debate was at the worst a mild case of stereotyping. That is in no way more offensive as when over here it is implied that all Bayern supporter wear leather pants and enjoy Sauerkraut or that the majority of Dortmund supporter come to the stadium straight from the coal mines and help themselves to a healthy portion of Bigos after it.

The only people who could feel offended in this whole saga are victims of "real" racism, people who suffer every day because they are born with a slightly different skin color. Screaming racism at everything close to stereotyping does not help anybody, if anything, it trivialises the whole topic.

And here I thought we Germans were the kings of political correctness...
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From now on everyone will remember where they were when they first heard about noodlegate.
 
Let's get back on topic here:

Liverpool have won one trophy since 2005.
The new Spurs, or Everton....
 
Alex99 said:
And you don't see how ignoring the obvious problem because of a football rivalry maybe makes the fan base at least somewhat complicit?
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Complicit? The debate wasn't real. It never is - or rarely is. The whole thing was built on a disingenuous premise. In my opinion, and knowledge of how fans operate, a significant portion of United's fanbase were expressing a level of disgust that was motivated more by tribalism and rivalry than actual sincerity.

That's not a direct attack on United fans, it's a broader point about how rival fans use morality and outrage as a stick to best others with. It's part of fan culture but is totally at odds with the true motivations of what fans enjoy. All fans do it and it was central to this whole issue.

If you took the content of fan forums at face value you'd think they were full of campaign-driven, virtuous do-gooders. It's a facade. We all love a club-based scandal. We race to the top of the ivory tower. We denounce the guilty. We bash the club. Liverpool fans did it with Giggs - did they really care about the lives affected by Giggs' actions? No, of course not. But it was a means to an end. This stuff is nectar to a fanatic.

This isn't a qualification of Suarez or anything around that particular issue. This is me calling out fans...all of us...we are all complicit.
 
Kraftwerker said:
Given how much you embarrassed yourself during your club's racism episode, even gaining a charming new username for a while, probably best you don't try to talk about taking things a step too far. :)
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It was obviously just banter & tongue-in-cheek stuff. There's a lot of it going on in here. So be quiet & go eat some noodles, there's a good lad.
 
PickledRed said:
Complicit? The debate wasn't real. It never is - or rarely is. The whole thing was built on a disingenuous premise. In my opinion, and knowledge of how fans operate, a significant portion of United's fanbase were expressing a level of disgust that was motivated more by tribalism and rivalry than actual sincerity.

That's not a direct attack on United fans, it's a broader point about how rival fans use morality and outrage as a stick to best others with. It's part of fan culture but is totally at odds with the true motivations of what fans enjoy. All fans do it and it was central to this whole issue.

If you took the content of fan forums at face value you'd think they were full of campaign-driven, virtuous do-gooders. It's a facade. We all love a club-based scandal. We race to the top of the ivory tower. We denounce the guilty. We bash the club. Liverpool fans did it with Giggs - did they really care about the lives affected by Giggs' actions? No, of course not. But it was a means to an end. This stuff is nectar to a fanatic.

This isn't a qualification of Suarez or anything around that particular issue. This is me calling out fans...all of us...we are all complicit.
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Distilling it down to tribalism is disingenuous in the extreme.

When you have respected Liverpool journalists saying the club is in danger of picking up an association with racism, then you know it's not just a tribalism issue.

Anyway, fecked if I'm getting into a Suarez-Evra debate on here. Enjoy your Saturday night on RedCafe.
 
PickledRed said:
Complicit? The debate wasn't real. It never is - or rarely is. The whole thing was built on a disingenuous premise. In my opinion, and knowledge of how fans operate, a significant portion of United's fanbase were expressing a level of disgust that was motivated more by tribalism and rivalry than actual sincerity.

That's not a direct attack on United fans, it's a broader point about how rival fans use morality and outrage as a stick to best others with. It's part of fan culture but is totally at odds with the true motivations of what fans enjoy. All fans do it and it was central to this whole issue.

If you took the content of fan forums at face value you'd think they were full of campaign-driven, virtuous do-gooders. It's a facade. We all love a club-based scandal. We race to the top of the ivory tower. We denounce the guilty. We bash the club. Liverpool fans did it with Giggs - did they really care about the lives affected by Giggs' actions? No, of course not. But it was a means to an end. This stuff is nectar to a fanatic.

This isn't a qualification of Suarez or anything around that particular issue. This is me calling out fans...all of us...we are all complicit.
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k m8 but one set of fans were defending a racist, so...
 
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